A Cop on Every Corner? Come Downtown for the Fireworks. It's Safe Tonight.

[corktownyuppie]

This is bull, Detroiters should not feel like strangers in our own city.

I don't know. I'm a Detroiter. I'm more likely to feel like a stranger in my city when a 20 unruly teenagers are running around and yelling with no consideration for the safety or the comfort of people around them.

I recognize that you don't want to be in the middle of a police state. But that conclusion assumes that you can have a peaceful, safe, environment without groups of hoodlums running around acting a fool and causing chaos without a heavy police presence.

Detroit has proven that our people can't handle that much responsibility.

So if we want to get rid of the police state, then we have to find a way to change the way people behave. If we can't do that, then we don't have a lot of other choices. I refuse to allow an environment where a group of unruly kids are so overwhelming in number that they can intimidate everyone in their path. Lord of the Flies, indeed.

[Gannon]

Perhaps we should adopt a version of the comedian Gallagher's traffic control system.

He used to say that we should all be issued dart guns with our driver's licenses. When we see someone driving like an asshole, we'd tag them with a dart flag. They collect enough darts, they get a ticket for driving like an asshole.


Maybe we can use paintball guns. See someone acting out?! Paint 'em pink or purple. Maybe phosphors that only show under black lighting. Something which will make them stand out to the officers of the law...

[1953]

When I left downtown at 5, I noticed lots of shady young men walking around, before I realized that it was fireworks night. I'm glad they had a curfew and took care of the hooliganism that has kept many families away from the fireworks for years.

[DetBill]

Personally , I was glad they chose to police with meg troups last night. It was for most intents, a peaceful event enjoyed by thousands. I dont know if I understand people complaining about this ,if something materially worse happened and they under policed the event [[ like shootings, killings, assaults), the same people would be complaining and dissing the police for not doing their job. Lets face it, this town has more than its share of hoodlums and any city has to control them or face collapse. Im glad they did what they did. Thats what New York did in the late 70s and early 80s when no one wanted to go there due to crime.. They developed a no tolerance approach, cleaned up the city and look at it now.. Younger people wouldnt even know today New York was like that back then. It would be good if we could work towards a similar policy, our only problem is we are broke.

[Gannon]

Detroit was a gangland crimespree in the seventies, too.

I bet NYC never had an entire arena robbed during a concert.

I don't agree that this stance is necessary. They can be firm on the rules without being an overwhelming opposing force.

The broken windows theory does NOT require automatic weaponry and battering rams and helicopters and horses.

But prohibitions DO. Personal use prohibition in the 30s brought forth the first use of automatic, military weaponry in civilian life. Right here in Detroit, through the notorious Purple Gang that most of our grandparents wouldn't dare speak about. Some researchers conclude they were hired by Capone for the infamous St. Valentine's Day massacre in Chicago.

End the prohibition, the violence of the gray- and black-markets simply disappears. Simple as that...it was the MAJOR lesson of the stupid Constitutional Amendment experiment forced upon the masses by...those who thought they could be God over the rest.

ya get what I'm putting down yet?!

THAT is the same spirit that Beegod is infected with...

[corktownyuppie]

Detroit was a gangland crimespree in the seventies, too.

I bet NYC never had an entire arena robbed during a concert.

I don't agree that this stance is necessary. They can be firm on the rules without being an overwhelming opposing force.

The broken windows theory does NOT require automatic weaponry and battering rams and helicopters and horses.

But prohibitions DO. Personal use prohibition in the 30s brought forth the first use of automatic, military weaponry in civilian life. Right here in Detroit, through the notorious Purple Gang that most of our grandparents wouldn't dare speak about. Some researchers conclude they were hired by Capone for the infamous St. Valentine's Day massacre in Chicago.

End the prohibition, the violence of the gray- and black-markets simply disappears. Simple as that...it was the MAJOR lesson of the stupid Constitutional Amendment experiment forced upon the masses by...those who thought they could be God over the rest.

ya get what I'm putting down yet?!

THAT is the same spirit that Beegod is infected with...

End the prohibition of what, though? End the prohibition of uncivil or dangerous behavior? This was the safest I've felt at the fireworks, and I've been coming down for years. Why? Because of the obvious and overpowering show of overwhelming force. I knew at some level that if things got crazy, there would be help, and it would be quick. And if you're advocating that the rights of teenagers to assemble without adult supervision supersedes my right to feel safe, you'll end up with a city full of unruly children running amok while all the adults in the room race like hell to get out.

But if your talking about ending the prohibition of marijuana? I'm already on board with this.

[SWMAP]

The broken windows theory does NOT require automatic weaponry and battering rams and helicopters and horses.

1. Every gang kid in Detroit has a semi-automatic
2. Horses are a time-honored crowd control mechanism
3. Where were the battering rams?
4. Helicopters - give us more. I love the eye in the sky over my neighborhood. When I hear it i run and close my doors because, probably they are chasing someone who is on foot and likely to jump in any open doorway - with their semi-automatic!

[iheartthed]

I don't know. I'm a Detroiter. I'm more likely to feel like a stranger in my city when a 20 unruly teenagers are running around and yelling with no consideration for the safety or the comfort of people around them.

I recognize that you don't want to be in the middle of a police state. But that conclusion assumes that you can have a peaceful, safe, environment without groups of hoodlums running around acting a fool and causing chaos without a heavy police presence.

Detroit has proven that our people can't handle that much responsibility.

So if we want to get rid of the police state, then we have to find a way to change the way people behave. If we can't do that, then we don't have a lot of other choices. I refuse to allow an environment where a group of unruly kids are so overwhelming in number that they can intimidate everyone in their path. Lord of the Flies, indeed.

I think you should be able to be comfortable in your own city, but so should 16 and 17 year olds -- people who are old enough to drive cars and hold jobs... and pay taxes. It sounds like the curfew crossed the line by trying to force every kid into Detroit into the ne'er-do-well box.

Why couldn't the cops just be a visible presence downtown doing their jobs and break up the bad situations? Was it really necessary to require every person under 18 to be with a parent? Why is that even necessary? If there was enough manpower to arrest every 15, 16, 17 year old downtown then there were surely enough to just offer vigilance so that situations did not get out of control. How many kids that weren't intending to cause ruckus got caught up in this nonsensical curfew policy?

[southen]

issues aside, it was a pretty spectacular show.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/southen/7448387070/

[Farnsworthfarms]

I would rather allow the police to police me and the teens in an area that designated for people! not a street where I can get ran over after I am shot...I know people on here are opposed to calling it gentrification but what else is it if you cannot enjoy your cities public spaces? I asked a state police officer why the had the street closed and he said lack of man power...so if there is that much of a sortage you should cancel the deal, rather then not sell the court seats...

[Farnsworthfarms]

Why couldn't the cops just be a visible presence downtown doing their jobs and break up the bad situations? Was it really necessary to require every person under 18 to be with a parent? Why is that even necessary? If there was enough manpower to arrest every 15, 16, 17 year old downtown then there were surely enough to just offer vigilance so that situations did not get out of control. How many kids that weren't intending to cause ruckus got caught up in this nonsensical curfew policy?

exactly! great point

[Gannon]

How many kids that weren't intending to cause ruckus got caught up in this nonsensical curfew policy?

MOST of 'em, from what I could tell...those with a propensity for violence showed their mettle by resisting and fighting. Those were in the distinct minority, as we watched the entire corral being filled. Less than ten in the newly adjusted figure of 400! We can extrapolate that, perhaps, to estimate how many of our children are actually potential criminals. One in forty...of those who chose to come downtown.

There were a few bad apples who lashed out in the corral and on their way onto the buses, they were obvious.

Then again, even that doesn't prove intent to do harm, only resistance against the very same injustice many of us perceive. H-m-m-n-n.


I just asked one of my trusted inner-city 'grandfathers', an avid TV watcher, if he heard of the curfew. He did not. Nobody he knew had any idea there were restrictions on going to see the fireworks. He agreed he would've had a nearly impossible time getting down to the SW side to gather up his grandson, if he'd gone downtown and got caught up in this mess.

Ain't much money in the pocket on the 25th of the month...even for a taxi ride, if not especially so...since that would require a trade for what he's kept back for food for the next five days. And we all know what Bong has done with the later-night bus service.

THINK about that for a moment. This is why I'm so angry. It is an imposition upon the poor and unprotected of society.

Worst case?! One teenager gets put into detention, nobody can come get them out...their car gets towed from the parking lot...and they can NEVER earn enough to get it out. They lose their job...and start a life of crime instead, since the police showed them they were suspects anyways.


I only directly witnessed those three nice young ladies get surrounded by the uniformed thugs, while being questioned repeatedly how old they were. When was the last time you EVER heard a cop ask that as an opening line?!

The cops treated them as if they were evading, when they were obviously...OBVIOUSLY...merely scared and intimidated and confused. The surprise on their faces when told it was now illegal to be younger than eighteen in public told the entire story. They went like sheep, hands tied together with zip ties. Fucking zip ties! They were no threat, nor had any indication they might flee or even relatively close to disobeying anything!

How many of you want to be included in the NEXT dragnet Chief DooGood...or is it GodDoo, geez I confuse even myself...chooses to enforce upon an unsuspecting populace?!

[Gannon]

End the prohibition of what, though? End the prohibition of uncivil or dangerous behavior? This was the safest I've felt at the fireworks, and I've been coming down for years. Why? Because of the obvious and overpowering show of overwhelming force. I knew at some level that if things got crazy, there would be help, and it would be quick. And if you're advocating that the rights of teenagers to assemble without adult supervision supersedes my right to feel safe, you'll end up with a city full of unruly children running amok while all the adults in the room race like hell to get out.

But if your talking about ending the prohibition of marijuana? I'm already on board with this.

The prohibition of ALL the drugs the CIA brings into the neighborhoods, LOL!

THAT is the source of the street-level weaponry anyways. Just ask Ollie North and those like him in the Military/Industrial Complex!


There should be a right for peaceful, law-abiding teenagers to assemble in public. Period.


If you feel unsafe around them, call the cops! As said earlier, if they had enough people-power to enforce this silly-ass dragnet, they had enough around to answer your call.


Cheers

[Gannon]

The broken windows theory does NOT require automatic weaponry and battering rams and helicopters and horses.

1. Every gang kid in Detroit has a semi-automatic
2. Horses are a time-honored crowd control mechanism
3. Where were the battering rams?
4. Helicopters - give us more. I love the eye in the sky over my neighborhood. When I hear it i run and close my doors because, probably they are chasing someone who is on foot and likely to jump in any open doorway - with their semi-automatic!

I am surely glad I don't live in your world.

Those who yield their freedoms and liberty deserve neither. I won't be in that camp, sorry. You are acquiescing to the status quo, and allowing restraints which will NEVER be solutions!

The War on Drugs has always been a failure, and it always will be. Just like the Prohibition of Alcohol was destined to fail. Period.

The battering rams are for raids, that you missed the point makes me wonder a bit. You've never seen a drug raid in your 'hood? Unmarked and unidentifiable black-suited armored jackbooted insertion teams...totally horrifying to witness on our shores. Totally fucking UNnecessary, if there was a realistic set of laws in this land.

[jolla]

The idea of letting a 16-year-old kid meet up with 10 other 16-year-old kids unsupervised at 10-11pm is totally ridiculous.

I disagree. I don't know what you did when you were 16, but I hung out with my friends. Yes, after 10 [[on weekends and in the summer).

At 16 there was nooooooooo way I was watching fireworks with my parents! I went with my friends.

[Gannon]

At sixteen, we were already drinking in Windsor! The moment we could drive...had a friend 'fix' our licenses...next thing you know, WHOOPS, there goes my virginity. Go figure.

[corktownyuppie]

I disagree. I don't know what you did when you were 16, but I hung out with my friends. Yes, after 10 [[on weekends and in the summer).

At 16 there was nooooooooo way I was watching fireworks with my parents! I went with my friends.

I hung out with my friends too. But it's one thing to hang out with your friends at someone's house. It's a totally different thing to be in large groups of people hanging out outside or on the streets.

I guess the fundamental question is this, because we can argue round and round all day: Do you believe that unsupervised teenagers require curfews and special rules to prevent dangerous or rude behavior?

My answer is yes. Especially in Detroit. Does that mean that all teenagers cause problems? Or that it's even a majority? Of course not. But the amount of havoc caused by the small number is so damaging that it outweighs the desires of the many. It's the same reason why teenagers have restricted drivers' licenses. When I was 16, anybody could drive anywhere and at anytime. Then they realized that putting 6 16-year-olds in a car at 11 p.m. unsupervised generally resulted in problems. So many problems, in fact, that they put restrictions on when a 16-year-old could drive.

Detroit is a cesspool of destructive behavior and crime. A disproportionate amount of that crime involves people under 25 years old. It's why a nightclub shooting doesn't surprise me but a shooting outside of Charles Wright Museum or the DIA would.

I no longer care if I'm making 199 16-year-olds unhappy. The 1 out of 200 that cause the problems around here cause big, big problems that drive away the very people that Detroit is in desperate need of. Families. Investors. Productive and creative citizens.

Now you may argue that there is a better way than enforcing a curfew. I'm open to hearing that. But this is the first time in many years that I look my parents in the eye and say, "Come back to Detroit for the fireworks. You'll be safe and feel safe."

If that happens to mean that 250 minors either need adult supervision or else watch the fireworks on TV, then which side are you going to choose? Who's side have we been choosing so far? What kind of city do we want to be?

[1953]

I love Detroit, but the crime and violence is extreme and requires extreme measures. If we have to ask 16 year olds to hang out with mom and dad, then so be it. We have to turn this city around and it won't happen with lax policing.

[401don]

And I thought the cops were on every corner just to watch out for drunk Lions drivers . .

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

[Hypestyles]

... so is this it for the Hart-Plaza based events this summer? With all the budget issues, etc.?

[iheartthed]

I no longer care if I'm making 199 16-year-olds unhappy. The 1 out of 200 that cause the problems around here cause big, big problems that drive away the very people that Detroit is in desperate need of. Families. Investors. Productive and creative citizens.

If you think pissing off 199 potential "productive and creative" citizens to catch one bad apple is the way to save Detroit then... well, I have nothing to say. We've got a very wide philosophical gulf between us.

[Bagley]

It has always amazed me how police won't respond to routine 911 calls in the neighborhoods, but yet have the resources to litter downtown for events.

I agree that the DPD is awful at responding for emergencies on a daily basis--even Downtown. As someone who lives Downtown, it feels like every neighborhood in the rest of the city buses its hoodlums down for special events. You truly would have to see it to understand the danger. We see the daily violence that occurs when people in the same neighborhood clash and victimize one another, however; the mix of people from different areas of the city and the density leads to a potential for tragedy and chaos that is unique.

[BRAZZMAN]

Anybody know how much money the parents have to fork over for these curfew violations?

[corktownyuppie]

If you think pissing off 199 potential "productive and creative" citizens to catch one bad apple is the way to save Detroit then... well, I have nothing to say. We've got a very wide philosophical gulf between us.

We can piss off the 199.
Or we can piss off 250,000.

I'll take my odds and accept our philosophical difference.

[mikeg19]

In a perfect world, Detroit would be blanketed by that type of police presence on a daily basis. You can't prevent everything bad from ever happening, but you sure can deter it with that massive showing. Now if only money fell from the sky to pay for it all.........