Belle Isle Activity

**Detroitej72** · June-24-09, 05:34 PM

I'm not a fan of it either, but come on people, its not the worst thing on the island. As far as the noise, I have more problems from the kids out there blaring their music, and racing around the island. That is far more distracting than a few race fans gathering there once in a blue moon.

**Warrenite84** · June-24-09, 06:46 PM

Why not use the park for antique car shows? Looks like a great place to showcase some vintage tin and have downtown as a picturesque backdrop.

**jt1** · June-24-09, 07:55 PM

"Ugh.I get tired of having to repeat myself.Our activity in no way impinges upon others using the rest of the park.Others are enjoying the park for their own purposes and no one complains."

You get tired because your argument is garbage. We have multiple people here indicating they don't like it. You choose to ignore them. It does impinge upon the beauty and enjoyment of the park. There's a handful of people that have said it on this thread. Beyond here have you sought out any input outside of people that like your little events?

"So you've seen our event down there.Good.Now to correct your misunderstanding about "driving full speed in and around turns"-The course is to be driven in as quick a time as possible.But turns cannot be taken at "full speed"-the cars wouldn't make the corners.Your grasp of vehicle dynamics is,sadly,lacking.The speed at which the car IS able to make the corner is the maximum speed.Accidents waiting to happen??????Come on.Don't be an anti car alarmist whiner.There's nothing solid on the course to hit[[we certainly don't want to damage our cars) and any spectator is kept well back from the course."

Really, you're going to defer the argument by pointing out my lack of 'vehicular dynamics. The turns may be taken at full speed if the driving makes a mistake. The fact that you dismiss this possibility shows your limited realism. There is nothing"anti-car whining" about it so quite being an unrealistic little bitch about it. The simple fact is there is a possiblity that there may be an accident - when I saw the event there is a possibility of an accident. Your pre-teen bravado of 'we can do no wrong' is pretty sad. I thought people grew out of that mindset after their teen years.

"You completely dodged my statement about the people that are ALREADY there observing our event.We didn't attract them,they're already there,presumably using the park for their own enjoyment.And from what I've seen of those spectating,they enjoy it.If they don't,they leave."

I did not dodge it at all. Hell, you could have a public execution there and it would draw people but it would NOT BE THE INTENT OF THE PARK. Of course those spectating enjoy it and the ones that don't are stuck with the disgustingly paddock and the noise and headache of a bunch of people that still think driving quickly on a little course is cool. You may try to bring this up but you still are too ignorant to realize this is not the intent of a PARK.

"There's no way you're going to convince anyone with a lick of sense that the small paved paddock area detracts from the enjoyable use and beauty of the rest of the island.You just don't want to have to admit that there's a lot more park there for people to use than the paddock and it grates on you that others can enjoy something that you don't."

By lick of sense you mean anyone that disagrees with you. Your argument is essentiall, "If you don't like it go somewhere else in the park" Now if we are going to discuss enjoying the park we should consider upkeep. You still haven't stated how many 'thousands' your little groups pay.

"Have you gone to other parts of the island while our events were running?Did you hear engines revving and squealing tires from OUR event[[not from the other folks using other areas of the park)?Try it sometime.You won't hear our cars over the general din of the other island users."

Incorrect, I have heard it. I have also hear others that are too loud and impact the tranquility of the island. They are in the wrong, just as you are your little friends are.

**jt1** · June-24-09, 07:56 PM

Also, you still haven't addressed the previous point that this would not be allowed in parks elsewhere. Why is that?

**ridgeabilly** · June-24-09, 09:32 PM

On a Saturday night in the summer the island becomes quite a reality show-they really didn't need to bring one here.

**dcmorrison12** · June-25-09, 08:58 AM

"You get tired because your argument is garbage. We have multiple people here indicating they don't like it. You choose to ignore them. It does impinge upon the beauty and enjoyment of the park. There's a handful of people that have said it on this thread. Beyond here have you sought out any input outside of people that like your little events?"

-jt1 - I'm not sure how valid you're argument is... just because the majority of people one Dyes say something is true/false does not make it ACTUALLY true/false. Trust me, Dyes is not full of experts. I've encountered this most often in the mass transit threads.

either way, don't take me the wrong way, I am against having a large paved area in one of more the beautiful areas of the park.

**jt1** · June-25-09, 09:14 AM

Doc - I agree 100%. I would never assume the opinions of a few here represent everyone. That was just a rebuttal to his argument that nobody with any sense would have an issue with it.

**DetroitPetanque** · June-25-09, 09:59 AM

I heard that they'll be paving over the river next year... Think of all the benefits:

Cheaper Parking
Easier crossings over to Canada
Plenty of space for trash dumping

**KENSINGTONY** · June-25-09, 11:27 AM

Warrenite,that's a great idea,The island has been used that way in years past -once I know of by either Model A or Model T owners[[I forget which,it's been several years).And there was a car show there last year that seemed to be a large but informal gathering of old car owners.
My argument is garbage,eh?We consistently get over 100[[100+ people) entries to each event.They like coming to our events there.The spectators that come by apparently don't think it's so terrible either.
You seem hung up on what is the intent of the park.It seems to me the intent of the park is to have all its available facilities used in a manner fit for their purpose.The paddock fits our purpose,the picnic areas and other attractions fit other purposes.
Please tell us all just why that small area of land was so valuable as grass instead of pavement?I remember it as being uncovered with no shelter or picnic tables on it,largely unused by anyone.

**jjw** · June-25-09, 11:38 AM

Whenever I get back to Detroit, the first places I go are Eastern Market and Belle Isle. No longer living in Detroit, I really don't have a say but once I saw the pavement blaring in the sun where a park once was-I scratched it off my list. Way too depressing. With all of the vacant land in the city, they chose to pave over a part of Belle Isle. Whatever. Another Improvement? that makes no sense at all.

**Detroitnerd** · June-25-09, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by KENSINGTONY

My argument is garbage,eh?We consistently get over 100[[100+ people) entries to each event.They like coming to our events there.The spectators that come by apparently don't think it's so terrible either.
You seem hung up on what is the intent of the park.It seems to me the intent of the park is to have all its available facilities used in a manner fit for their purpose.The paddock fits our purpose,the picnic areas and other attractions fit other purposes.

Kensington: Your argument isn't worth much because the park is there to provide rest, peace and tranquility for city residents. For people who don't have air conditioning, the park is 10 degrees cooler in summer. You're able to rest, look at wildlife, picnic and enjoy nature, after a fashion. That, strictly speaking, is the purpose of an urban park.

We could do lots of things in a public place that attract people. We could have extreme fighting championships, witch-burnings, rocket launches, but those would all be out of character with the restful nature of a public park.

Your reasoning is lousy, and that's why only the people who love racing will dare agree with you. We're "hung up" on "what is" the intent of the park? It's pretty clear what the intent of a park is, just as it's pretty clear what the intent of a race track is. How about if we went down to the Flat Rock Speedway and started planting local trees in the middle of the track? How about if we started introducing animals and wildlife in the speedway? Or laying out sections of turf in the middle of the pit area? Or asking drivers to please slow down and enjoy the wildlife we are furnishing? Would the race car drivers and pit crews be "hung up" on "what is" the intent of a speedway?

Honestly, man, what's the point of arguing with you? You argue like a six-year-old child. Pick up the marbles and go.

**Detroitej72** · June-25-09, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Kensington: Your argument isn't worth much because the park is there to provide rest, peace and tranquility for city residents. For people who don't have air conditioning, the park is 10 degrees cooler in summer. You're able to rest, look at wildlife, picnic and enjoy nature, after a fashion. That, strictly speaking, is the purpose of an urban park.

If that were the case, they should ban people from blaring their music so obnoxiously loud that you hear it several hundred feet away.

**Detroitnerd** · June-26-09, 09:01 AM

Individuals at the park making noise? Police drive around and tell them to turn the music down. There are noise ordinances, and if people don't pay them they get a citation. Why the free pass for the burn-rubber set?

**KENSINGTONY** · June-26-09, 11:14 AM

Nerd,talk about flawed reasoning.Race tracks are not usually multi purpose facilities[[thought some have hosted concerts).Belle Isle is a multi purpose facility.So to suggest planting trees in the pavement of a race track or setting animals loose on a track is foolish.Our autocrossing is in a contained area,not through the whole island.We're over by the Scott Fountain.So visitors can still enjoy fishing,nature,the Conservatory,the Dossin,the picnic areas,the driving range and golf course,the ball diamonds,the running tack[[are they still open?),and the beach if they desire and not hear us.It's a big park,suitable for many simultaneous uses.
FYI,our yearly monetary contribution to the city for the paddock use ranges between $5000 and $10000,depending on how many events are held there.
jjw,you came to Belle Isle and all you saw was the paved paddock?You didn't see any of the picnic areas,the casino,the Dossin,the Conservatory,the lighthouse?That's a very big rest of the island to miss.Open your eyes.

**Detroitnerd** · June-26-09, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by KENSINGTONY

Nerd,talk about flawed reasoning.Race tracks are not usually multi purpose facilities[[thought some have hosted concerts).Belle Isle is a multi purpose facility.So to suggest planting trees in the pavement of a race track or setting animals loose on a track is foolish.Our autocrossing is in a contained area,not through the whole island.We're over by the Scott Fountain.So visitors can still enjoy fishing,nature,the Conservatory,the Dossin,the picnic areas,the driving range and golf course,the ball diamonds,the running tack[[are they still open?),and the beach if they desire and not hear us.It's a big park,suitable for many simultaneous uses.
FYI,our yearly monetary contribution to the city for the paddock use ranges between $5000 and $10000,depending on how many events are held there.
jjw,you came to Belle Isle and all you saw was the paved paddock?You didn't see any of the picnic areas,the casino,the Dossin,the Conservatory,the lighthouse?That's a very big rest of the island to miss.Open your eyes.

Haha. Oh, I see, just because somewhere on the park island there is a baseball game being played, you can burn rubber, screech your tires, pave over a few acres, and fill the air with the fumes of racing exhaust. RIGHT WHERE YOU COME ONTO THE ISLAND? RIGHT IN THE PLACE WHERE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE GREETED WITH GREEN SPACE AND PEACE? THE MOST POPULAR AREA FOR PICNICS AND WEDDING PHOTOS?

Face it, Kensington. You never cared about Belle Isle. That's why you see no problem with plopping down something that belongs in Flat Rock or Milan right down in the middle of a natural area. Your comments where you say, "Oh, come on! Tell me how much you appreciated that place before," speak volumes about your attitude. You simply don't take Belle Isle seriously as a park, and that's why you have no problem with junking it up.

Keep your money. Keep your cars. Get off the island. I think that sums up my position nicely.

**KENSINGTONY** · June-30-09, 03:33 PM

Hmmm,crossing the bridge the first thing I see is the old floral clock area then bending to the right there's the old canoe rental building on the right along with the grassy strip that runs around to the back side of the island.The paddock is on the left AFTER the turn off to go over the bridge to the inner parts of the island-and it's adjacent to the Scott Fountain which is surrounded by what?Pavement and marble!Now I don't advocate grassing over the area surrounding the Scott Fountain or the pool area there [[I love the whimsy of the Fountain with it's over the top design-makes me smile every time I see it) but there's a LOT of pavement that surrounds it.That area is far from the most popular spot for picnics[[and wasn't before it was paved) simply for the lack of available space there.There are far more picnics held toward the inner parts of the island-that's where the most shade,shelters,and picnic tables are.
I'm not overly fond of the aroma of barbecue sauce and/or charcoal smoke.Does that mean that I should advocate that picnics should be banned from the island because as I drive around the island I can smell that stuff?No,of course it doesn't.If I don't like what I smell or see,I move to another location there.I don't have the right to impose my beliefs on others because what they're doing offends me.I suggest you do the same.
How DARE you presume to know what I care about and don't.You just want to whine because someone doesn't share your intolerant PC view of how things should be.I think that's the WHAAAAAAAAAAAAMBULANCE I hear coming for you.

**jt1** · June-30-09, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by KENSINGTONY

I'm not overly fond of the aroma of barbecue sauce and/or charcoal smoke.Does that mean that I should advocate that picnics should be banned from the island because as I drive around the island I can smell that stuff?No,of course it doesn't.If I don't like what I smell or see,I move to another location there.I don't have the right to impose my beliefs on others because what they're doing offends me.I suggest you do the same..

Still too ignorant to understand the intent of the park.

Originally Posted by KENSINGTONY

How DARE you presume to know what I care about and don't.You just want to whine because someone doesn't share your intolerant PC view of how things should be.I think that's the ..

It's not a matter of intolerance or being PC. It is a matter of what the intent of the park. I'll give you a little hint since you appear to be slow. It was nto intended for a bunch of middle age to old wanna be teenagers to race their little cars around [[that goes for you and your little group of Peter Pans as well as the fools that race around on the south end of the island)

**Detroitnerd** · June-30-09, 03:46 PM

Oh, yes. There's hardly any difference. Why, all you have to do is look at the photos.

Attachment 2129
Who needs all that green space and all those trees?

Attachment 2130
Ah, yes. Much better!

**KENSINGTONY** · June-30-09, 03:57 PM

Oh,jt,stop using the "little" adjective so much.You come off as someone who's trying to make themself appear they're better than everybody else.And you're not.You're just another whining PC dilletante who can't bear the thought that someone might have different interests than you.That park has MANY uses,one of which is autocrossing on the paddock.Get used to it.

**jt1** · June-30-09, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by KENSINGTONY

Oh,jt,stop using the "little" adjective so much.You come off as someone who's trying to make themself appear they're better than everybody else.And you're not.You're just another whining PC dilletante who can't bear the thought that someone might have different interests than you.That park has MANY uses,one of which is autocrossing on the paddock.Get used to it.

My use of little is not to make myself appear to be better than anyone. It is to mock the stupidity of middle age people that think they are cool for driving around on a closed course. Your little activity for is for adults that just haven't grown out of being teenagers.

I am all for people having different interest - if you take your activity to raceways, then go for it. But when you start supporting your little [[yes, I said little) activity at BI then I will take issue with it.

You still have not addressed the question many posts ago whether any other community would be expected to 'get used to it'. We both know the answer so you can just run along and make some model cars.

As for whining you're the one here whining that your activity is great for BI and everyone should get used to it. You talk the attitude of a little kid [[yep, I said little again) that assumes if you like it then everyone does or should just deal with it. All the while you have ignored the many posts from many different people that think either the paddock and/or your activities take away from the island

So luckily for you the city is so broke they have to accept your pittance but it doesn't change the fact that you and your little friends are nothing more than a nuisance that support the destruction of the park as shown by the pictures above.

So you can take your little racing buddies, little paddock, little whiny PC ass and little model cars and piss off.

**KENSINGTONY** · July-01-09, 04:55 PM

jt,you assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you and your Walden Pond fantasy must be little boys or somehow immature.We're not.We're grown ups with interests different from yours.And we have just as much right to use the island facilities as you do for your traipsing in the woods and staring at the trees and fish.
How much money have YOU given to Belle Isle,jt?

Lorax · July-01-09, 07:20 PM

That concrete pad is so ugly and useless. If such an idea was proposed in Olmstead's Central Park, there would be lawsuits.

With all the vacant land in Detroit, they can't build a racetrack and concrete pad somewhere else?

**Servite76** · July-01-09, 07:53 PM

I just love how these threads that have simple questions turn into pissing matches. I guess that is why I enjoy reading this great board. Carry on people.

**EastsideAl** · July-02-09, 03:00 AM

Those aerials really make me sick. Now that we're not holding his race any longer it sure would be nice if Roger Penske would be considerate enough to come back and spend a few of his mega-bucks to get his goddamn ugly as hell parking lot for non-existent race cars out of OUR park.

**DetroitScooter** · July-02-09, 12:55 PM

If Roger does come back, I hope that he takes all the other repairs and cleaning he helped do to the island with him. Then he could leave a dirty, neglected and run down place full of broken pavilions and closed bathrooms just like it was every time I've been there in the past nine years. It used to be an embarassment that I felt I could not take my family and friends to. Now it's cleaned up, and I'm proud to visit and support it. See the difference?

It's because of Roger Penske and his volunteers that a world-class event has returned to BI. If that takes upgrading the facilities I'm all for that because it benefits everybody, whether it's race week or not. The paddock doesn't bother me in the least and wow, somebody [[autocrossers and production companies) actually pays Detroit to use it. What a concept!

I'm not an autocrosser, but cripes, someone tries to continue some good work around this place and this is what they get? Personal attacks? Why don't you go pick up trash on BI? I'm sure that the autocrossers and production companies do...