Serious question posed by the Chicago Sun Times: Is Chicago ‘becoming Detroit?’

[wolverine]

Rate of Killings Rises 38 Percent in Chicago in 2012


Yup, Chicago's safe as can be.

When I consider safety in a particular city, I think about crime distribution. I would hypothesize in Detroit's instance, crime is spread fairly evenly across the city. All blocks can tell a story of a shooting nearby in recent memory.

In the case of Chicago, it's very concentrated. People who live on the Northside, Blue-Line Westside, Near Southside, and downtown seem to not give a damn about crime numbers. I've lived in the city three years now and tend to bike the streets as far South as Cermak, west as far as Western and North as far Lawrence and most of my time afterwork is spent outdoors. I haven't heard a gunshot and I've not witnessed any fights. I know it happens in these parts, but it seems rare.

With news of it occurring it's a wake up call. I counted 76 cops on my walk home from work this evening. So at least they've stomped out the crime problem near and around downtown.

[illwill]

When I consider safety in a particular city, I think about crime distribution. I would hypothesize in Detroit's instance, crime is spread fairly evenly across the city. All blocks can tell a story of a shooting nearby in recent memory.

In the case of Chicago, it's very concentrated. People who live on the Northside, Blue-Line Westside, Near Southside, and downtown seem to not give a damn about crime numbers. I've lived in the city three years now and tend to bike the streets as far South as Cermak, west as far as Western and North as far Lawrence and most of my time afterwork is spent outdoors. I haven't heard a gunshot and I've not witnessed any fights. I know it happens in these parts, but it seems rare.

With news of it occurring it's a wake up call. I counted 76 cops on my walk home from work this evening. So at least they've stomped out the crime problem near and around downtown.

Oh, you're really dreaming!

Stompted out crime near and around downtown. Not everythingis reported on the front page you know...

[rbdetsport]

Detroit is probably used as an example in urban planning classes as what NOT to do with a city.

No one wants to become Detroit, and are doing everything OPPOSITe of what Detroit has done.

Detroit is actually used more in the urban planning class as a city that has so much potential for change. The places where current urban planning policies don't work and where new ones will definitely be born. So, there is a lot more positives of Detroit talked about in the urban planning class. We are supposed to learn from this downfall of a once grand American city, not continue bitching about it.

[iheartthed]

When I consider safety in a particular city, I think about crime distribution. I would hypothesize in Detroit's instance, crime is spread fairly evenly across the city. All blocks can tell a story of a shooting nearby in recent memory.

In the case of Chicago, it's very concentrated. People who live on the Northside, Blue-Line Westside, Near Southside, and downtown seem to not give a damn about crime numbers. I've lived in the city three years now and tend to bike the streets as far South as Cermak, west as far as Western and North as far Lawrence and most of my time afterwork is spent outdoors. I haven't heard a gunshot and I've not witnessed any fights. I know it happens in these parts, but it seems rare.

With news of it occurring it's a wake up call. I counted 76 cops on my walk home from work this evening. So at least they've stomped out the crime problem near and around downtown.

Define crime. Shootings? Yeah, those are probably more concentrated to certain areas in Chicago than Detroit. Everything else? Seems like it's more widespread in Chicago than Detroit, at least according to these two maps:

http://spotcrime.com/mi/detroit

http://spotcrime.com/il/chicago

[313WX]

Define crime. Shootings? Yeah, those are probably more concentrated to certain areas in Chicago than Detroit. Everything else? Seems like it's more widespread in Chicago than Detroit, at least according to these two maps:

http://spotcrime.com/mi/detroit

http://spotcrime.com/il/chicago

Of course you're going to see more petty crimes when you have a higher population density.

The rate and distribution of the violnt crims is what matters most to people, combined with response times of emergency services,

[iheartthed]

Of course you're going to see more petty crimes when you have a higher population density.

The rate and distribution of the violnt crims is what matters most to people, combined with response times of emergency services,

Most of those are not petty crimes.

[313WX]

Most of those are not petty crimes.

On the North Side, the lion's share of the crimes appear to be drug abuse, graffiti, larency-theft, and burglarly.

There are a few simple batteries/assault reports.

[iheartthed]

On the North Side, the lion's share of the crimes appear to be drug abuse, graffiti, larency-theft, and burglarly.

There are a few simple batteries/assault reports.

Quite a few larcenies and burglaries as well. But by your logic, NYC's map would be as busy as Chicago's: http://spotcrime.com/ny/newyork

[Danny]

Detroit and Chicago are alike in some ways.

1. Both have segregation and demarcation in their neighborhoods.

2. Both have urban street crimes.

3. Both have Greektowns.

4 Both have Mexicantowns.

5. Both populations are dropping. From 1950 to 2010, Chicago lost over 1,100,000 people. It went from 3,000,000 to 2,680,000 due to white flight to the its suburbs. However its was mostly ethnic Jewish communities in the south and North Lawndale sub-division, ethnic Polish, Germanic families in the south side from Pilsen [[Little Village) to Hyde Park further down to Pulman sub-division. That includes in the Austin community that play its role. Some parts of Hyde Park, Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, New City, Roscoe Village, Little Ukraine, Little Italy is where middle class whites maintian their stronghold despite the gang and drug violence from Chicago housing projects coming from Cabrini-Green and Robert Taylor Homes. Middle class black families maintian their stronghold in Austin sub-division and mostly throughout the south side. The remaining poor black families reside along the old Black Belt [[Bronzeville) communities, North Lawndale area and Jeffery Manor. Chicago's Chinese maintain their stronhold at Armour Square community. However they looking forward to expand further southward and westward to Roosevelt St, too. The Mexican-Hispanic maintian their stronghold at Little Village [[Plisen), Humboldt Park and further near the far northwest side. Detroit lost over 1,122,000 people from 1950 to 2010. It went from 1,840,000 to 718,000 due to white flight to its suburbs. The ethnic Jewish communities from Black Botton/Paradise Valley to the northwest side of Detroit, ethnic Germanic, Polish, Italians acclerated their flight after the 1967 riots. African Americans expanded their communties from the lower and upper west and east side to the northwest and northeast, north end and lower southwest side. Poor Whites and Mexicans-Hispanics maintain their stronghold in Southwest Side. Little Yemeni community near Hamtramck border along Mt. Elliott and Conant St. and Bengali [[ Benglatown) community in the Conant Garders and Ethnic Lebanese and Shiite Iraqi Muslims the quickly expanded their communities from Dearborn to Warrendale Area. Those three Detroit areas suddenly grew during the last 20 years. Middle class black families maintain their stronghold along 6 Mile to 8 Mile Rd. from Livernois Ave. to Reford TWP borders, some parts of Mohican Regent from State Fair Rd to Hayes, Alter Rd from Chandler Park to Grosse Pointe borders

What's different about these cities:

1. Downtown Detroit skyline is like remnants from the Great Depression. Downtown Chicago's skyline is a miniture New Yorkesque scene filled with skyscrapers with a Sears Tower and up and coming second Trump Tower that would rival the 3rd tallest structure.

2. Chicago's size is 5 times bigger and wider that it would cover almost 75% of Wayne County. While Detroit is 136 square miles.

3. Chicago has a very corrupt ward system with an alderman board powered by the Daly machine and genitrified merchantilism politics. Detroit has superior corrupt city council system about to be a corrupted district system filled with old guard Coleman Young machine powered by oppresive plantation 'house to field negro' politics.

4. Detroit has one American League baseball team called the Detroit Tigers. Chicago has the Cubs in the north side for the National League and White Sox in the south side for the American League.

5. All Chicago national league teams have their stadiums in Chicago. Detroit has three stadiums in its downtown except the Pistons which they play out in Auburn Hills.


Right Now Chicago has experienced a huge demographic change. It's population is dropping, but its the middle class black flight to the suburbs that play a role. In the north side the loss of the CHA's Cabrini-Green and replacement of middle income public housing cause many low-income blacks to move away. Only a handful of low income blacks are now living what's left of Cabrini-Green area. Some of them with a excellent clean record are now along middle to high income young professionals. During the past 30 years real estate schemes lure many middle to low-income black families from the south and west sides to occupy homes in the south suburbs. Many young professionals in the north side are expanding further west to Humboldt Park and near North Lawndale communities. They are filling up the Loop area and increasing development further south to Chicago's Old Black Belt [[Bronzeville) and Hyde Park areas. Ethnic Hispanics and Mexicans in the north side are flighting from Humboldt Park to Far Northwest areas. In the Meantime Mexicans and Hispanic are expanding their communities further in the south side, too. By 2030 Chicago will 40% more young professionals and their middle whites and 30% more Mexicans and Hispanics than Black and Chinese families. It will increase its population to over 2,900,000 people.

Detroit will experience more population decline for the next 20 to 30 years. There will be 15% less middle class black families the 42% more poor and low-income black families stuck in the lower to upper east and west side communities. Some of them will move further to once well preserve northwest and northeast communities from Grandmont-Rosedale Park, Old Redford area to Chandler Park, Morningside to East English Village. They will make a ruckus and trigger violent crime in those areas if we don't take community action immediately! Young professionals are flighting to Downtown Detroit thanks to Quicken Loans and Compuware corporate ventures. Fewer young professionals are starting to occupy gentrified areas from Brush Park to Midtown. New fast growing Yemenis, Bengalis occupy fewer east side areas that border Hamtramck and Lebanese and Shiite Iraq Muslims started to expand their communties further west through Warrendale and further east to Detroit's Southwest Side. By 2050 Detroit population will slowly increase to 950,000. The black population will decline by 30% Hispanic-Mexican population will increase by 10% and young professional and ethnic races will increase by 25%.

[Wheels]

Anybody trying to compare Detroit crime to Chicago has never spent any time in Chicago.

There are crowds of people on the streets at night in Neighborhoods where there is no special event going on. In fact you will see more people on the streets of Chicago at night then you see any time in Detroit.

Crime rules Detroit. In Chicago it is a way of life but life goes on.

The south side is not the place to be along with much of the west side, but you are still left with an area larger than Detroit.

[313WX]

Quite a few larcenies and burglaries as well. But by your logic, NYC's map would be as busy as Chicago's: http://spotcrime.com/ny/newyork

I said larcencies and burglaries, but they're not violent crimes in th US. Plus, unlike in Detroit, I'm sure the response and resolution rate of those crimes is much higher.

I don't know why you and others on this site insist on comparing the crime situation in Chicago to Detroit's. It's a silly comparison, no matter which way you and others spin it.

Chicago's still safer than Detroit by all measures.

And now you want to interject NYC, lol..

If you want to compare anything, how about the fact that Chicago and NYC has a functional and extensively rapid transit systm while Detroit doesn't, or that Chicago and NYC haven't lost more than 25 percent of their peak populations while Detroit has lost 2/3rds of its peak population and continues to lose more, or the fact that their Metro areas have at least doubled in size since the 1950s while Detroit's has been stagnant, amongst other things.

Chicago and NYC don't have the problem. Detroit's the one with the problem if it feels so inferior that it must grasp at straws to bring down other cities and make itself feel better.

[iheartthed]

I said larcencies and burglaries, but they're not violent crimes in th US. Plus, unlike in Detroit, I'm sure the response and resolution rate of those crimes is much higher.

I don't know why you and others on this site insist on comparing the crime situation in Chicago to Detroit's. It's a silly comparison, no matter which way you and others spin it.

Chicago's still safer than Detroit by all measures.

And now you want to interject NYC, lol..

If you want to compare anything, how about the fact that Chicago and NYC has a functional and extensively rapid transit systm while Detroit doesn't, or that Chicago and NYC haven't lost more than 25 percent of their peak populations while Detroit has lost 2/3rds of its peak population and continues to lose more, or the fact that their Metro areas have at least doubled in size since the 1950s while Detroit's has been stagnant, amongst other things.

Chicago and NYC don't have the problem. Detroit's the one with the problem if it feels so inferior that it must grasp at straws to bring down other cities and make itself feel better.

Let's keep the story straight: it was a Chicago politician and Chicago media that tried to make an unfavorable comparison to Detroit, not the other way around. I'm just pointing out that Chicago has a crime problem that is much closer to Detroit than it is to being "safe".

[313WX]

Let's keep the story straight: it was a Chicago politician and Chicago media that tried to make an unfavorable comparison to Detroit.

It was probably in jest, as in Detroit is the precedent for the city no other city wants to become.

Only Detroiters took it seriously, and at this point likely out of context.

[iheartthed]

It was probably in jest, as in Detroit is the precedent for the city no other city wants to become.

Only Detroiters took it seriously, and at this point likely out of context.

Well, it was hypocritical on Chicago's part since that city is not hardly immune to the issues Detroit is facing.

[313WX]

Well, it was hypocritical on Chicago's part since that city is not hardly immune to the issues Detroit is facing.

But would you agree it has done a better job of handling them [[along with its region and the state of Illinois)?

[iheartthed]

But would you agree it has done a better job of handling them [[along with its region and the state of Illinois)?

Yes, it has done a better job than Detroit. But we're talking the difference between bad and worse, not great and worst. So while Chicago is fretting about becoming Detroit, is every other city fretting about becoming Chicago?

Chicago lost a substantial number of residents in the last decade, having 200,000 residents lost in a decade, second highest numerical population drop of any city in the nation.

Chicago has a high crime rate, perhaps the worst among top 10 cities if they would actually report all of their stats.

Chicago has a high unemployment rate, higher than the national average and second highest of top 10 cities.

Chicago has a ton of blighted neighborhoods.

Chicago's transit system, while light years ahead of Detroit's... really ain't that great. It's average by East Coast standards and sub par by international standards -- which is relevant since it proclaims to be a global city.

[313WX]

Yes, it has done a better job than Detroit. But we're talking the difference between bad and worse, not great and worst. So while Chicago is fretting about becoming Detroit, is every other city fretting about becoming Chicago?

No.

Most cities would love to be at Chicago's [[or even Toronto's) level, even Detroit although it won't admit it. That's why so many cities compare themselves to it.

The only exceptions ar NYC, Boston, San Francisco and maybe DC.

[Meddle]

There's one big difference with Chicago as far as I know. I don't believe their core economy ever centered around one industry. Haven't they always been somewhat diverse?

With Detroit, when the auto industry faltered, there wasn't much to fall back on.

[313WX]

Chicago has a ton of blighted neighborhoods.

Define "blighted."

The South Side, where most of the blight is, still averages a population density of 20-25,000, even with the mostly depopulated englewood neighborhood.

[313WX]

Chicago's transit system, while light years ahead of Detroit's... really ain't that great. It's average by East Coast standards and sub par by international standards -- which is relevant since it proclaims to be a global city.

Chicago global city status is based more so around its economic output [[fourth largest GDP internationally) versus its mass transit.

Business leaders from all parts of the world in all sorts of industries have to visit Chicago for one reason or another.

[iheartthed]

Define "blighted."

Chicago has tons of severely blighted neighborhoods with abandoned houses and empty lots, much like the worst of anything you will ever see in Detroit.

This is blight: http://www.totalmortgage.com/blog/wp.../01/blight.jpg

And this: http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-mu.../08/blight.jpg

This too: http://www.bloomberg.com/image/i2EkO858Apok.jpg

All of that is Chicago, but it could just as easily be Detroit [[or Cleveland, St. Louis, Memphis).

The South Side, where most of the blight is, still averages a population density of 20-25,000, even with the mostly depopulated englewood neighborhood.

20-25,000 per what? Mile? That would make Englewood twice as dense as the city as a whole, and more dense than even San Francisco, the second most densely populated major city in the country.

[louis]

for some reason i thought this might be a positive story and i got really exited, now im just bummed out

[313WX]

20-25,000 per what? Mile? That would make Englewood twice as dense as the city as a whole, and more dense than even San Francisco, the second most densely populated major city in the country.

Census Tracts...

With the exception of englwood, much of the South side is still dense and intact. Most of the nighborhoods also have an average density of 20,000 people per square mile.

Chicago has blight [[every big city does), but nowhere near Detroit's level of blight, where it's literally right in your face once you exit the heart of downtown and drive down a random neighborhood block, which is why I asked you to define blighted.

[Bham1982]

Chicago global city status is based more so around its economic output [[fourth largest GDP internationally) versus its mass transit.

There's no way Chicago has the world's 4th largest GDP.

Chicago only has the 5th largest economy in the U.S. It trails [[in order) NYC, LA, DC and San Francisco.

And obviously there are non-U.S. cities with bigger economies than Chicago. Certainly Tokyo, Seoul, London, Paris, Sao Paulo and a few others would have bigger economies.

I could see Chicago at best around #10 globally in terms of economic output. It depends on your definition of "metropolitan area". I don't know how you do apples-to-apples comparisons across national boundaries.

But Chicago, domestically, is no bigger than the #5 economy. It was the #3 economy up to about 5-6 years ago, but DC and SF have surpassed it.

[iheartthed]

There's no way Chicago has the world's 4th largest GDP.

Chicago only has the 5th largest economy in the U.S. It trails [[in order) NYC, LA, DC and San Francisco.

And obviously there are non-U.S. cities with bigger economies than Chicago. Certainly Tokyo, Seoul, London, Paris, Sao Paulo and a few others would have bigger economies.

I could see Chicago at best around #10 globally in terms of economic output. It depends on your definition of "metropolitan area". I don't know how you do apples-to-apples comparisons across national boundaries.

But Chicago, domestically, is no bigger than the #5 economy. It was the #3 economy up to about 5-6 years ago, but DC and SF have surpassed it.

Where did you get your numbers? From what I've seen, Chicago's GDP is still 3rd in the U.S. However, there is no way that it's 4th in the world. It would have to be larger than L.A., Tokyo, London and Paris.