Mt. Clemens: What's the deal?

[nain rouge]

On a semi-related note, there needs to be some serious effort put into rehabbing/saving Hamtramck. It's an amazing neighborhood right now, a true gem, but it feels so precarious. It needs some new investments.

[ghettopalmetto]

And every dollar they spend they get back more in tax's. Not so with other forms of transit.

Yeah? How much does tax revenue does MDOT receive from all those acres of parking lots? We've had this discussion on previous threads--if the increased tax receipts exceeded the cost of road "improvements", then every street in Michigan would be paved with gold leaf. Funny enough, areas like Royal Oak and Ferndale produce far more tax revenue per acre than areas like Hall Road.

I digress. Otherwise, a very educational thread about Mt. Clemens thus far.

[Hermod]

Yeah? How much does tax revenue does MDOT receive from all those acres of parking lots?

MDOT didn't build the parking lots. They expanded Hall Road. The parking lots were built and paid for by the property owners.

[ghettopalmetto]

MDOT didn't build the parking lots. They expanded Hall Road. The parking lots were built and paid for by the property owners.

So what's the property tax rate on a parking lot in Macomb County?

The assertion was made that public investment in the widening of Hall Road produced a return on investment. Is it a dollar-for-dollar ROI? If not, what is the ratio?

It reasons, of course, that the land on which these parking lots sit could be developed with more tax-paying properties. Economists refer to this as "opportunity cost".

[iheartthed]

Whatever formula that was use to contrive that ridiculous statement must have been grossly skewed by the vast wasteland of the industrial south and the stockyard area.

It's true. The population density of Detroit in 1950 was 13,306 persons/square mile. The population density of Chicago in 2010 was 11,864 person/square mile.

Another stunner: Chicago's 1950 population density was 15,951 person/square mile, which was less than 20% higher than Detroit's population density in 1950. Contract that to now where Chicago's density is nearly 60% higher than Detroit's. Detroit didn't just lose population, it fundamentally changed between then and now in a way that Chicago didn't.

[Hermod]

So what's the property tax rate on a parking lot in Macomb County?

The assertion was made that public investment in the widening of Hall Road produced a return on investment. Is it a dollar-for-dollar ROI? If not, what is the ratio?

It reasons, of course, that the land on which these parking lots sit could be developed with more tax-paying properties. Economists refer to this as "opportunity cost".

The widening of Hall Road allowed for more cars to use more gasoline which is taxed. Not my argument, but one that you were responding to from another poster.

I would say that the stores on Hall Road [[with their parking lots) produce one hell of a lot more in sales and property taxes to the state and the localities than the truck farms they replaced. If the land becomes more valuable, then Best Buy will well out to Palmetto Developers who will erect a 103 story office tower on the land.

[ghettopalmetto]

The widening of Hall Road allowed for more cars to use more gasoline which is taxed. Not my argument, but one that you were responding to from another poster.

I would say that the stores on Hall Road [[with their parking lots) produce one hell of a lot more in sales and property taxes to the state and the localities than the truck farms they replaced. If the land becomes more valuable, then Best Buy will well out to Palmetto Developers who will erect a 103 story office tower on the land.

So the owners of those properties have repaid the state for the cost of construction of the Hall Road highway, and have an agreement to fund the ongoing maintenance. Is that correct?

In a scenario where the state recoups its money [[which we haven't numerically demonstrated yet), what's the benefit of widening the road in the first place? Was there something inherently wrong with the "truck farms" and 2-lane road that had already existed?

Does the same model hold for Mt. Clemens? When the city paid money to bulldoze buildings and construct parking lots around the perimeter of downtown, which tax-paying businesses moved-in to compensate for these public expenditures?

I mean, I can throw bags and bags of money into a hole in the ground, but that doesn't mean a gold-producing tree is going to magically grow sprout one day. At the end of the day, I just have less money. And the C.H.U.D.s reap the benefits.

[iheartthed]

The assertion was made that public investment in the widening of Hall Road produced a return on investment. Is it a dollar-for-dollar ROI? If not, what is the ratio?

I believe that these planning authorities that dump money into road widening projects are actually trying to induce demand, instead of responding to demand.

This entry on the Atlantic Cities blog that I was reading this morning pretty much confirmed my suspicions that congestion positively correlates with economic productivity [[in other words, the more congested your roads, the better your economy): http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...ngestion/2118/

But back to my theory... If road widening really is the result of demand then why is the land so cheap to allow the roads to be widened so easily?

[Hermod]

But back to my theory... If road widening really is the result of demand then why is the land so cheap to allow the roads to be widened so easily?

Hall Road is a section line road. If my memory serves, section line roads have a 120 foot wide right-of-way. There is no land acquisition cost.

[Detroitnerd]

Hall Road is a section line road. If my memory serves, section line roads have a 120 foot wide right-of-way. There is no land acquisition cost.

No land acquisition costs, correct.

There are only costs to good sense, design, walkability, the environment, etc.

[Shollin]

Whatever formula that was use to contrive that ridiculous statement must have been grossly skewed by the vast wasteland of the industrial south and the stockyard area.

Uh, it's pretty easy mathematics. Detroit in 1950 had 1.8 million people in 138 sq miles. 1.8 million divided by 138 equals 13,000 people per sq mile. Chicago in 2010 has 2.6 million people in 227 square miles which equals 11,000 people per square mile. It's pretty basic and not "contrived"

[Hermod]

No land acquisition costs, correct.

There are only costs to good sense, design, walkability, the environment, etc.

Hall Road is a hell of a lot more walkable [[and bikeable) now than it was in 1952 with two foot shoulders between the edge of the narrow blacktop travel lane and the ditch.

[Gistok]

I remember all the "fruit stands" along M-59, where you could buy fresh produce, berries and sweet corn. Now it's been ruined by all those high fellutin' newfangled malls and restaurants.

Now if you want to buy produce, you have to enter what looks like a large twin towered train station called Nino Salvaggio's.

Before it was easy.... when you had 1/2 dozen types of vegetables and fruits, sittin' on the stand, when they were in season. Now it gets mighty confusing choosing from hundreds of items in and out of season.

That just ain't right for them simple minded Macomb County folk.... they gets confused...

[Detroitnerd]

Hall Road is a hell of a lot more walkable [[and bikeable) now than it was in 1952 with two foot shoulders between the edge of the narrow blacktop travel lane and the ditch.

Oh, yes, from a strict engineering point of view. The surface of the road is not blacktop adjoining a culvert.

But only an insane person would enjoy biking in one of the ugliest manmade environments ever made, with speeding traffic jutting in and out of curb cuts, sun-baked five minute waits for traffic lights, etc.

You're really reaching with that one, though it was worth a giggle.

[DetroitPlanner]

And every dollar they spend they get back more in tax's. Not so with other forms of transit.

Ah but only a micro-portion of those taxes will be used for paying for, and maintaining the transportation used to build them. This is true for both highway and transit expenditures.

[Hermod]

sun-baked five minute waits for traffic lights

Most bicycle riders around here just ignore traffic lights.

[Hermod]

I remember all the "fruit stands" along M-59, where you could buy fresh produce, berries and sweet corn. Now it's been ruined by all those high fellutin' newfangled malls and restaurants.

Now if you want to buy produce, you have to enter what looks like a large twin towered train station called Nino Salvaggio's.

Before it was easy.... when you had 1/2 dozen types of vegetables and fruits, sittin' on the stand, when they were in season. Now it gets mighty confusing choosing from hundreds of items in and out of season.

That just ain't right for them simple minded Macomb County folk.... they gets confused...

26 Mile still has the farmer's fruit stands.

[poobert]

Hall Road is a hell of a lot more walkable [[and bikeable) now than it was in 1952 with two foot shoulders between the edge of the narrow blacktop travel lane and the ditch.

Dear God. You can't make this stuff up. Yes, Hall Road is so walkable.

Like it or not, Hall Road is the retail "downtown" of the Detroit metro area.

Yes, it's positively a destination. My friends from Birmingham, the Pointes, Novi, Indian Village, and Allen Park gush about biking along the downtown of the Detroit metro area incessantly.
I am sure this information is available in some form somewhere, but I would be astonished if Macomb County residents did not make up a huge majority of people there, and that if Wayne County residents/shoppers reached into a double-digit percentage in those parts. Anectodtal, but more than you've provided: my girlfriend lives in western Wayne and had absolutely no idea Hall Road existed [[of course she was horrified to see what it actually was). Ditto for my best friend from GPW.
What color is the sky in your world? Nobody is arguing that their is substantial retail concentrated there, but your implications that M-59 is a walkable, bikable downtown of Metro Detroit retail makes you look like an insane person.

[mwilbert]

I doubt a breakdown of where Hall Road shoppers come from is publicly available, so I'm just guessing, but why would anyone living west of I-75 shop on Hall Road other than for a change of pace? I literally never shop in Macomb County, except for trips to the thrift stores up Gratiot. I barely ever go to Macomb for any reason.

[Hermod]

Dear God. You can't make this stuff up. Yes, Hall Road is so walkable.



Yes, it's positively a destination. My friends from Birmingham, the Pointes, Novi, Indian Village, and Allen Park gush about biking along the downtown of the Detroit metro area incessantly.
I am sure this information is available in some form somewhere, but I would be astonished if Macomb County residents did not make up a huge majority of people there, and that if Wayne County residents/shoppers reached into a double-digit percentage in those parts. Anectodtal, but more than you've provided: my girlfriend lives in western Wayne and had absolutely no idea Hall Road existed [[of course she was horrified to see what it actually was). Ditto for my best friend from GPW.
What color is the sky in your world? Nobody is arguing that their is substantial retail concentrated there, but your implications that M-59 is a walkable, bikable downtown of Metro Detroit retail makes you look like an insane person.

You seem to have trouble with the English language.

It is easier to walk the Hall Road route now [[going from parking lot to parking lot than it was in 1952. You can also traverse the area more easily on a bike now than you could in 1952. Is it a walker's paradise or a bilker's paradise now? Hell no, it isn't. The Hall Road corridor is a major retail center and, judging from the traffic, is both needed and successful.

When I was a teenager in the 1950s, I would have thought that I had died and gone to heaven if something like Hall Road had existed in the area then.

[noise]

Nobody is arguing that their is substantial retail concentrated there, but your implications that M-59 is a walkable, bikable downtown of Metro Detroit retail makes you look like an insane person.

It's important to realize that most of the residents of Macomb, St. Clair, Lapeer, etc. counties don't care about this, though.

[canuck]

The problem with the Hall Roads of this world is the sameness. They are all Hall roads. Hermod's candid remark about the heavenly quality of Hall Road now compared to the old days is shared by a lot of folks who really enjoy the sense of freedom a wide suburban boulevard delivers. That is OK too. Everybody uses these relatively practical routes to do business and they have become the norm.

The sameness is something you cannot control unfortunately. The vantages are the same from one part of North America to the next, these malls can try to outdo each other but the experience of city shopping with major points of orientation are lost. You have a numbered lightpole instead to help you find your car or beep your car horn on remote, then you're gone.

[noise]

The problem with the Hall Roads of this world is the sameness. They are all Hall roads. Hermod's candid remark about the heavenly quality of Hall Road now compared to the old days is shared by a lot of folks who really enjoy the sense of freedom a wide suburban boulevard delivers. That is OK too. Everybody uses these relatively practical routes to do business and they have become the norm.

The sameness is something you cannot control unfortunately. The vantages are the same from one part of North America to the next, these malls can try to outdo each other but the experience of city shopping with major points of orientation are lost. You have a numbered lightpole instead to help you find your car or beep your car horn on remote, then you're gone.

Maybe it could be attributed to an untrained eye, but downtown shopping street after downtown shopping street can all look the same, as well. If I'm in some part of NYC, hop on the train for 20 minutes, I'll resurface in another part that looks identical to the first. When shopping in downtown Chicago, this street looks the same as that street which looked the same as the street before that.

That's not to say I prefer one or the other. I've lived in both settings and both have their advantages & disadvantages.

[nain rouge]

The argument that we should be grateful that Hall Road is now more walkable than before is absurd. Sure, it's way easier to walk across Hall Road today than - say - when it was a primeval forest thousands and thousands of years ago, but I don't think that's a good yardstick to use. I used to bike up to Macomb Community College's Central Campus, and it was hell if you didn't plan it right. I pity the fool that tries to bike around where Van Dyke Freeway and Hall Road intersect. You're basically asking to get killed. Also, the lack of sidewalks on the Hall Road side of MCC's campus is a huge pain.

Coming to Hall Road from the south can be a chore, as well. If you alternate between the more walkable parts of Hayes and Garfield it's smooth sailing, but any deviation from that route is done at your own peril.

Of course, Oakland County is far from perfect itself. Once you get north of Birmingham, all bets are off.

[antongast]

Everybody uses these relatively practical routes to do business and they have become the norm.

I don't think Hall Road is very practical at all.