Mt. Clemens: What's the deal?

[midwesthostage]

What kills me here it that it seems that die-hard suburbanites seem to forget that their communites would not even EXIST without Detroit. Personally I really don't care if someone is passionate about arts and culture or not, however there are implications for the health of the region and the broader economy. If we are trying to attract big business, aren't they going to look at if the area will attract good talent? Aren't we trying to retain young, entrepreneurial graduates? Because although some of those people may be perfectly happy in the suburbs, many are willing to pay to not have to deal with traffic, have amenities, etc. Although cities seem to be most healthy with a mix of people, working and professional class, let's be honest it is the better off who want mass transit and amenties and it is their money the cities desperately need, and the health of cities help the region. Or to sum it up like all the talking heads like to say, "It's about the economy, stupid."

[nain rouge]

First off, I want to thank Krawlspace for his very informative post. That was a great inside perspective, and I think it serves as a reminder at how fragile the recovery of a downtown can be. It's not always as easy as Ferndale made it look.

Yes, Shollin. That's what the piece originally said. I just reversed it for the purposes of amusement. It is, as you may have detected, originally a rant against urbanites from Joel Garreau's 1985 book, "Edge City."

Wow, Edge City is a very interesting book. Thanks for the link! It's funny how he frames the suburbs as some sort of Jeffersonian or Emersonian [[as in Ralph Waldo) return to nature, when in many ways that couldn't be further from the truth. He ignores the deleterious effects of sprawl and the automobile lifestyle on both nature and our personal health, and seems unaware of the irony of driving somewhere to exercise. Not only that, but we know that most people in "edge cities" just get in the car and go from building to building, only stopping to appreciate nature when they lounge in their manicured, controlled backyards once in a blue moon.

I realize, considering our economy, it seems foolhardy to be anti-automobile. However, I think if this country drove less but bought primarily domestic cars, the effect on the American auto industry would not be too serious. Though the car will never go away, reducing it to a more right-sized role [[as opposed to being the center of all development plans) would be ideal.

I have to agree. I always read how shopping at box stores and eating at chain restaurants is not "cultured", but cultured is going to Royal Oak, a city that's 90% white, and eating at over priced restaurants.

I admit that Royal Oak or Ferndale can't compare to downtown and midtown Detroit when it comes to culture, but they do offer something a little different. In Royal Oak, there is the Barnes & Nobles [[yes, a chain) where you can glance from upstairs at all the activity on Main while reading a book, the Main Art Theatre, the Baldwin Theatre, the Royal Oak Music Theatre, Goldfish Tea, and etc. In Ferndale, you have two great used bookstores [[including a branch of John K. King Books), the Ringwald Theatre and the Magic Bag, Detroit Comics, an improv comedy place, and a few other things. For me, that kind of stuff makes a big difference. Yes, there are a lot of people that just go there to be seen and hang out the overpriced bars and restaurants - but you know, you could probably say the same thing about Partridge Creek. That's everywhere, really. Mt. Clemens has some cool stuff, too, like Weirdsville, but it doesn't quite compare currently.

That was my criteria when making those comments. And the truth is, there are tons of people that want those kinds of amenities, just as there are tons that want Hall Rd. No, of course I don't want snooty people or whatever. That's not what I look for. I like Mt. Clemens as a place to drink now and then, for example, simply because of all the nice people there. I just wish there was more going on so I could hang out there more often.

[j to the jeremy]

Funny how a thread about mt. Clemens quickly devolved into a bicker fest.I've only been there once, and it does remind me of Pontiac. I think the sea of parking between downtown and the neighborhoods is preventing a lot of possibilities from happening. The emerald theater is cool though.Also, it's ok that Hall Rd exists. People on here need to get away from this binary thinking where only sprawl or dense living can exist. Are we ALL so stupid that we can't comprehend the need for both, even though dense areas are under supplied? Also, I work in parking and Michigan is one of the only places where people expect free parking everywhere. It's just a consequence of starting the drive thru culture and building so many parking lots in what used to be our downtowns.

That being said, some of the critique of places like Royak Oak and F'dale is very valid. The fact that , in Michigan, walkable areas are instantly turned "trendy", only serves to prove the point that we need lots more of them. A walking lifestyle should be an option at any income level, and having expensive trendy areas doesn't make that happen, though it does illustrate the demand very well

[nain rouge]

I'll admit that I do my pointless bickering now and then, but I think it's a reaction to the fact that the sprawl faction has been winning for so long. The best the walkable faction gets is a block or two now and then. It's easy to forget that because this forum is all about urbanity, but we really are a minority faction in this state. Between Hall Road, Big Beaver, Great Lakes Crossing, and etc., those that like sprawl should be satisfied for decades. When do we get the love?

[Hermod]

I'll admit that I do my pointless bickering now and then, but I think it's a reaction to the fact that the sprawl faction has been winning for so long. The best the walkable faction gets is a block or two now and then. It's easy to forget that because this forum is all about urbanity, but we really are a minority faction in this state. Between Hall Road, Big Beaver, Great Lakes Crossing, and etc., those that like sprawl should be satisfied for decades. When do we get the love?

Umm, because their retail dollars paid for those stores along Hall Road. If Gander Mountain or North Face thought that there were enough of "you" wanting to spend dollars in downtown Detroit, they might put a store there.

As the old saying goes, "money talks, bullshit walks".

[mwilbert]

Stores follow people, not the other way around. If you want better retail in Midtown or Downtown, you need there to be more people there. Eventually you can get a virtuous cycle where more people leads to more amenities leads to more people, but it starts with the people.

There are a lot of stores in places like Hall Road because there are a lot of people in the general vicinity who can get there in the cars that they need to do everything in their lives anyway, and there is lots of room to accomodate the cars. You can't have anything like that in a central city, not without destroying its urban character. But stores need customers, so you either need smaller-scale stores which need fewer customers or lots of customers who don't need parking.

[animatedmartian]

As someone who drives Gratiot daily, once you go past 13 Mile, it starts to feel sprawly. Then when you get to Metro Parkway, it pretty much feels like an underdeveloped strip of Gratiot; lots of parking lots and buildings that are far away from the road with a forest of trees behind them.

Woodward, on the other hand, never gets that underdeveloped feeling. Even with parking lots, the buildings hug the road until you get to southern Pontiac.

Another thing I find weird is how lacking Harrison Township is. It felt like a rural fishing town along Clinton River [[which isn't bad). But for a waterfront community that's within a good distance from the freeway, you'd expect there to be a bunch of new suburban housing in all the nooks and crannies of the undeveloped land. Yet people have decided to build up along Hall Road and the Van Dyke expressway. It just seems like that whole little section of Macomb County was passed over for empty farmland farther to the north and west.

Then again, maybe no one wants to live near the air base, I dunno.

[Hermod]

As someone who drives Gratiot daily, once you go past 13 Mile, it starts to feel sprawly. Then when you get to Metro Parkway, it pretty much feels like an underdeveloped strip of Gratiot; lots of parking lots and buildings that are far away from the road with a forest of trees behind them.

Woodward, on the other hand, never gets that underdeveloped feeling. Even with parking lots, the buildings hug the road until you get to southern Pontiac.

Another thing I find weird is how lacking Harrison Township is. It felt like a rural fishing town along Clinton River [[which isn't bad). But for a waterfront community that's within a good distance from the freeway, you'd expect there to be a bunch of new suburban housing in all the nooks and crannies of the undeveloped land. Yet people have decided to build up along Hall Road and the Van Dyke expressway. It just seems like that whole little section of Macomb County was passed over for empty farmland farther to the north and west.

Then again, maybe no one wants to live near the air base, I dunno.

Much of the development up there began centered on the local towns. Just north of New Baltimore are a lot of subdivisions.

Hall Road developed out from Utica with the newest developments like Partridge Creek the furthest east from Utica.

Lots of hidden subs in Clinton Twp and Harrison Twp which you do not see from Gratiot or I-94. Lots of roads coming off Gratiot between a run-down auto repair shop and a bar will lead back into a modern subdivision.

The whole 24-25-26 mile road was skipped over for a long time while subdivisions spread out from Romeo.

[nain rouge]

Umm, because their retail dollars paid for those stores along Hall Road. If Gander Mountain or North Face thought that there were enough of "you" wanting to spend dollars in downtown Detroit, they might put a store there.

Fair enough, although I'd like to point out that my last question was rhetorical. I don't expect the world to bend to my desires, but you can't blame me for dreaming. Don't we all think we know best, and wish the world fit our own vision better? Deep inside, we know we're probably wrong about lots of things, but it's fun to have an inflated sense of importance.

Anyway, I get that you can't blame developers for following the money. But I'll still say Hall Road was a mistake in the long run. We need more "real" cities, even though we'll probably never have anything as dense as Detroit was during its heyday [[which wasn't even that dense compared to places like Manhattan). Troy and Southfield were such a waste of potential, for example. One of those could've been our Austin, Texas, if planned and sized right. Instead, they're these dinky towns [[by national standards) that are seemingly hostile to the idea of life at ground level. It would seem the planners behind those cities pretty much wanted you to move out to Rochester Hills or Farmington Hills and commute in.

There is such a thing as being a bit too decentralized, unfocused, and territorial, and we passed that point a long time ago. How people in Macomb and Oakland can convince themselves that treating Detroit like toxic waste instead of a regional asset was the right choice, for example, I'll never understand. Unlike, say, Buffalo or Cleveland, we had a WAY larger metro population [[more than double or even triple) - we had the resources to do better, and we completely failed.

But yes, follow the money. Just don't be upset when it turns it was going down a black hole this whole time.

[DetroitPlanner]

Why can't you stick to the subject? The subject is not sprawl in Macomb County, it is Mt Clemens. Now a lot of folks have compared Mt Clemens to places like Royal Oak, but no one is harping on how Royal Oak lost out due to all of the Strip malls nearby in Southfield, Madison Heights or Troy. To compare Mt Clements to Royal Oak and say that Mt Clemens is like that because its sprawly is false as Royal Oak is also surrounded by sprawl yet it retains its food court for drunk yuppy atmosphere.

[nain rouge]

The sprawl does matter, though. Royal Oak was originally built up in a much denser environment. At its peak, RO had a population density of almost 8,000 per square mile. That's not bad, especially by suburban standards. Sterling Heights, still at its population peak, has a density of 3,000 per square mile. Places like Shelby Township are even worse [[or better, depending on your viewpoint). RO definitely benefits from the denser development around Woodward.

[Detroitnerd]

Umm, because their retail dollars paid for those stores along Hall Road. If Gander Mountain or North Face thought that there were enough of "you" wanting to spend dollars in downtown Detroit, they might put a store there.

Ever the "free market" purist who doesn't see the millions of dollars poured into creating the road, expanding the road, running sewers, running water, etc. Yup, there was no initial public plan to turn it into sprawlsville. Just people started driving on the beet fields to buy Chinese-made crap so they put up some roads and stores...

You are so silly, Hermod.

[Wheels]

Just people started driving on the beet fields to buy Chinese-made crap so they put up some roads and stores...

And if retail doe's someday come back to Detroit do you think it will be Chinese-free?

[Det_ard]

The sprawl does matter, though. Royal Oak was originally built up in a much denser environment. At its peak, RO had a population density of almost 8,000 per square mile. That's not bad, especially by suburban standards. Sterling Heights, still at its population peak, has a density of 3,000 per square mile. Places like Shelby Township are even worse [[or better, depending on your viewpoint). RO definitely benefits from the denser development around Woodward.

Today RO's population density is 4900/sqmi compared to Sterling Heights at 3500/sqmi. However, Sterling Heights has that industrial corridor between Mound and Van Dyke that is almost devoid of residential housing. Take that out and Sterling Height's population density is 4200/sqmi. Not that different from Royal Oak.

[Detroitnerd]

And if retail doe's someday come back to Detroit do you think it will be Chinese-free?

There are plenty of stores in Detroit selling durable, American-made products.

They're called resale shops.

[Hermod]

Ever the "free market" purist who doesn't see the millions of dollars poured into creating the road, expanding the road, running sewers, running water, etc. Yup, there was no initial public plan to turn it into sprawlsville. Just people started driving on the beet fields to buy Chinese-made crap so they put up some roads and stores...

You are so silly, Hermod.

The way you talk, they built this vast network of roads and then everything was built. The road network always existed. some of it was two lane blacktop and some of it was gravel. Those roads out there were all section line roads. M59 was two lane blacktop from Pontiac to Selfridge AFB changing its name from Auburn Road [[which still exists north of the M59 freeway) to Hall Road to Wm P. Rosso Highway as it went from west to east. As the shopping built up on Hall Road, it was widened AS the traffic increased NOT BEFORE the traffic increased.

[Detroitnerd]

The way you talk, they built this vast network of roads and then everything was built. The road network always existed. some of it was two lane blacktop and some of it was gravel. Those roads out there were all section line roads. M59 was two lane blacktop from Pontiac to Selfridge AFB changing its name from Auburn Road [[which still exists north of the M59 freeway) to Hall Road to Wm P. Rosso Highway as it went from west to east. As the shopping built up on Hall Road, it was widened AS the traffic increased NOT BEFORE the traffic increased.

Who widened the roads? It was MDOT. In other words, it wasn't the shoppers themselves who paid to turn that part of Michigan into sprawlsville. It required subsidies from every person in Michigan to turn that into sprawlsville. The way you say it, it was thousands of individual decisions to support those stores that made the sprawl. Sprawl cannot exist without lavish subsidies from your old enemy [[and lifelong employer) -- the gubmint.

[Wheels]

Who widened the roads? It was MDOT. In other words, it wasn't the shoppers themselves who paid to turn that part of Michigan into sprawlsville. It required subsidies from every person in Michigan to turn that into sprawlsville. The way you say it, it was thousands of individual decisions to support those stores that made the sprawl. Sprawl cannot exist without lavish subsidies from your old enemy [[and lifelong employer) -- the gubmint.

And every dollar they spend they get back more in tax's. Not so with other forms of transit.

[nain rouge]

Today RO's population density is 4900/sqmi compared to Sterling Heights at 3500/sqmi. However, Sterling Heights has that industrial corridor between Mound and Van Dyke that is almost devoid of residential housing. Take that out and Sterling Height's population density is 4200/sqmi. Not that different from Royal Oak.

Well, the factories are there, though. And RO benefits from the infrastructure put in place, even if the population has fallen. I can easily bike to RO, for example, from any of the surrounding cities. A lot of neighborhoods and even parts of the main roads in the 16-20 mile area lack sidewalks, and forget about it once you get north of 20 mile. Peak density in that 16-23 mile area given the way it's currently designed is about 3,000 per square mile, and that's probably being very charitable. That makes a difference in people's perception of the neighborhoods, and encourages driving longer distances. You can't, for example, get combinations of things like food, clothes, and electronics in one area unless you drive to Hall Road [[you can't even really find a Walmart - as if that suit most people's tastes - unless you go to Hall Road, where there are several). Well, there is a little stretch around 14-16 mile on Van Dyke, I guess. But that's it. Otherwise, you're just thrilled if there's a Kroger not too far from your house.

Meanwhile, along Woodward, you have several downtowns, and Somerset and Oakland Mall are just a few miles off of Woodward [[along with Walmart, Meijer, and etc.). There is a symbiotic relationship between all of those elements which helps everyone. You don't have to travel so far to get your stuff.

Meanwhile, Mt. Clemens has been isolated by particularly low density sprawl that, as I have mentioned before, funnels people into Hall Road. On the eastern side of Macomb, you'd have to go to Roseville, St. Clair Shores, and Eastpointe to see densities comparable to what you see along Woodward. However, for whatever reason, planners there didn't make any room for downtowns or the like, so you see a funnel effect to Macomb Mall and the surrounding restaurants. It just doesn't encourage walking or shorter trips in any way.

[East Detroit]

Poor Oakland County... wishing they had a real lake.

[Det_ard]

[/COLOR]

Well, the factories are there, though. And RO benefits from the infrastructure put in place, even if the population has fallen. I can easily bike to RO, for example, from any of the surrounding cities. A lot of neighborhoods and even parts of the main roads in the 16-20 mile area lack sidewalks, and forget about it once you get north of 20 mile. Peak density in that 16-23 mile area given the way it's currently designed is about 3,000 per square mile, and that's probably being very charitable. That makes a difference in people's perception of the neighborhoods, and encourages driving longer distances. You can't, for example, get combinations of things like food, clothes, and electronics in one area unless you drive to Hall Road [[you can't even really find a Walmart - as if that suit most people's tastes - unless you go to Hall Road, where there are several). Well, there is a little stretch around 14-16 mile on Van Dyke, I guess. But that's it. Otherwise, you're just thrilled if there's a Kroger not too far from your house.

Meanwhile, along Woodward, you have several downtowns, and Somerset and Oakland Mall are just a few miles off of Woodward [[along with Walmart, Meijer, and etc.). There is a symbiotic relationship between all of those elements which helps everyone. You don't have to travel so far to get your stuff.

Meanwhile, Mt. Clemens has been isolated by particularly low density sprawl that, as I have mentioned before, funnels people into Hall Road. On the eastern side of Macomb, you'd have to go to Roseville, St. Clair Shores, and Eastpointe to see densities comparable to what you see along Woodward. However, for whatever reason, planners there didn't make any room for downtowns or the like, so you see a funnel effect to Macomb Mall and the surrounding restaurants. It just doesn't encourage walking or shorter trips in any way.

Well, I hear you on the sidewalk thing, but my MIL lives in Sterling Heights and she doesn't drive, never learned how to. She walks every day to the local Kroger, KMart and Walgreens. Not on Hall Rd. Not Van Dyke/14-16. More like Dequindre/18. Now that may not be possible through out SH, but RO isn't all walkable to groceries, clothes and electronics either.

RO clearly has a different look and feel particularly near 11/Main but get a mile from there and there's not an appreciable difference. You note that there are a couple malls [[Somerset and Oakland) a few miles off Woodward. In SH proper you have Lakeside and a mile West of SH, Oakland.

Granting the obvious difference in the presence or absence of a traditional downtown, most of the rest of the areas aren't that different.

[Shollin]

Fair enough, although I'd like to point out that my last question was rhetorical. I don't expect the world to bend to my desires, but you can't blame me for dreaming. Don't we all think we know best, and wish the world fit our own vision better? Deep inside, we know we're probably wrong about lots of things, but it's fun to have an inflated sense of importance.

Anyway, I get that you can't blame developers for following the money. But I'll still say Hall Road was a mistake in the long run. We need more "real" cities, even though we'll probably never have anything as dense as Detroit was during its heyday [[which wasn't even that dense compared to places like Manhattan). Troy and Southfield were such a waste of potential, for example. One of those could've been our Austin, Texas, if planned and sized right. Instead, they're these dinky towns [[by national standards) that are seemingly hostile to the idea of life at ground level. It would seem the planners behind those cities pretty much wanted you to move out to Rochester Hills or Farmington Hills and commute in.

There is such a thing as being a bit too decentralized, unfocused, and territorial, and we passed that point a long time ago. How people in Macomb and Oakland can convince themselves that treating Detroit like toxic waste instead of a regional asset was the right choice, for example, I'll never understand. Unlike, say, Buffalo or Cleveland, we had a WAY larger metro population [[more than double or even triple) - we had the resources to do better, and we completely failed.

But yes, follow the money. Just don't be upset when it turns it was going down a black hole this whole time.

No one is close to the density of Manhattan. Detroit in 1950 was denser than Chicago is now. The fact you're talking about how we messed up on Troy or Southfield just shows how screwed up the area. The suburbs shouldn't be denser and more walkable than the central city. It isn't like that anywhere. Chicago has tons of sprawl. The metro area has 9.5 million and Chicago accounts for 2.6 million of that. There nearly 7 million people of sprawl.

[Shollin]

Today RO's population density is 4900/sqmi compared to Sterling Heights at 3500/sqmi. However, Sterling Heights has that industrial corridor between Mound and Van Dyke that is almost devoid of residential housing. Take that out and Sterling Height's population density is 4200/sqmi. Not that different from Royal Oak.

Sterling Heights still has lots of open area in the northern part. I live in southern Sterling Heights and it is as dense as Royal Oak. It's basically northern Warren. Sterling Heights also is expanding. It's one of the few cities that actually gained population. As much as people talk about Ferndale and Royal Oak, they continue to lose people.

[Wheels]

. Detroit in 1950 was denser than Chicago is now.

Whatever formula that was use to contrive that ridiculous statement must have been grossly skewed by the vast wasteland of the industrial south and the stockyard area.

[nain rouge]

The suburbs shouldn't be denser and more walkable than the central city. It isn't like that anywhere. Chicago has tons of sprawl. The metro area has 9.5 million and Chicago accounts for 2.6 million of that. There nearly 7 million people of sprawl.

Where is our Evanston, or our Oak Park? And Naperville is basically Royal Oak, Ferndale, and all that stuff rolled into one. Chicago has way better suburbs because the city itself is much more vibrant.

Evanston and Oak Park both have 10,000 people per square mile still. We have nothing like that. We would need one fully developed Midtown just to compete with Evanston or Oak Park, or a combination of Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Berkley completely packed in with people. Granted, we have less people so we never could quite be Chicagoland, but we've made poor use of our resources for decades and are now extremely far behind.

Well, I hear you on the sidewalk thing, but my MIL lives in Sterling Heights and she doesn't drive, never learned how to. She walks every day to the local Kroger, KMart and Walgreens. Not on Hall Rd. Not Van Dyke/14-16. More like Dequindre/18. Now that may not be possible through out SH, but RO isn't all walkable to groceries, clothes and electronics either.

OK, you have a lot of these exceptions, although I hardly think your trio of Kroger, Kmart, and Walgreens would satisfy most people, just like the trio of Farmer Jack, 7-11, and CVS when I grew up in Sterling Heights wasn't enough. People living there are still going to make a lot of trips out of that little area, most likely to Hall Road, or John R, so they can walk around the malls. If Gratiot or any of the big roads in Macomb had even something like Berkley's "downtown" [[I know, it's very small), it would be a big deal. There is downtown Utica, which is comparably to "downtown" Clawson, but that's about it. And, of course, poor, forgotten Mt. Clemens.

You simply don't have the same continuity. Utica and Mt. Clemens are basically on opposite sides of the county. Meanwhile, you have Ferndale, Birmingham, Berkley, and Royal Oak near or on Woodward, and Main has Royal Oak and then Clawson, which isn't far from Woodward. Macomb can't compare.