Report: Red Wings select architect for new 18,000-seat arena

**Enduro** · May-22-12, 11:52 AM

They don't sell out every night and haven't for a while. They get creative to fill it up [[as did the Pistons during their "sell out" streak). You can get seats on the secondary market for less than face value a lot of nights and sometimes the playoff games don't sell out, especially the early rounds. In fact, you could get Tigers playoff seats last year for less than face value on StubHub and other websites.

The trend is to start building smaller stadiums. The baby boomers are getting older and have less disposable income, couple that with staying home with a good HD TV being an attractive option when you price out a night at the game.

All that said I hope they do this right and soon. Somethine with an old school vibe like Conseco Fieldhouse [[now Banker's Life Fieldhouse) in Indy. It's right in the heart of downtown and is surrounded by retail, bars and restaurants. Foxtown would be busy year round if they do this and make the area really attractive to development.

I would love to see the Pistons get on board somehow. I think they would benefit from being downtown, especially with gas prices so high. They had some dreadful attendance numbers last year. Being downtown makes them closer to Windsor, downriver, Dearborn and the young professionals slowly making their way downtown. It seems inevitable that they return to Detroit eventually so let's get them in on the planning stages rather than shoehorning them in 10 years down the way.

**mikefmich** · May-22-12, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Enduro

They don't sell out every night and haven't for a while. .

Wings sold out all year long.

**esp1986** · May-22-12, 02:20 PM

The big thing with The Joe is the suites. For years now, the Red Wings have been losing tenants for their suites. That is the reasoning behind the Miller Light Party Deck and the Comerica Bank Legends Club. Those all used to be suites rented by corporations, and when they lost the tenants, they got creative in ways to fill them every night.

The problem is, they are not great. You darn near need binoculars to see the game. The reasoning behind a stadium with fewer seats, is that they will gain substantially by having better suites, closer to the ice. Not by having more of them. I wouldn't be surprised if they have more suites, but having them closer to the ice is the important part. They will be able to command higher prices for suites closer to the ice.

The tickets over the rest of the arena will likely increase in price significantly in the first couple years [[like with any new stadium), then level off about where they are now.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-22-12, 04:38 PM

I was a little surprised about the number of seats, too. Although we should keep in mind that the total capacity is just one report on an arena that has yet to be designed; it certainly could change. Obviously. in general, Wings tickets have been a hot ticket. Yes, demand went down after the economic downturn, but in general they sell well. I would think that the thought of $50-100 x 40+games x 2000-3000 would encourage a little bigger stadium. That is a lot of dough, not even counting parking and concessions.

Second reason I think it should be bigger: I would think that it would remain at a disadvantage vs The Palace for booking top shows. The Palace has more seats than the proposal, and remains a modern and excellent place to put on a show [[with ample concessions, advertising, and suite revenue). Don't get me wrong, I dont want a giant, characterless barn. But 18,000 just would mot optimize revenue, or its benefits to dowtown.

**mikeg19** · May-22-12, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by mikefmich

Wings sold out all year long.

4

Well, yes, technically they "sold out" every game. I think Enduro is referring to seeing empty seats in the stadium, although the seat has been paid for, either by someone or a broker. But to your point, just because there isn't a butt in the seat doesn't mean it wasn't a sellout. I think the Avs "sold out" every game for like 8 years straight when they moved to Denver. I highly doubt nobody ever missed a game.

**Dyenimator** · May-22-12, 04:59 PM

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-22-12, 05:05 PM

I know corporate sales of suites and company seats declined in the downturn, but suspect that they will return strong. They are good for treating clients and employees. When I was working as a waiter when I first moved to NY, my boss had several restaurants and bars, and would randomly pick employees to use his amazing seats at Yankee Stadium. Nothing like once or twice a year giving up waiting tables for the night to sit in $500 dollar seats. It was cool as hell.

**Enduro** · May-22-12, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by mikefmich

Wings sold out all year long.

Can you site that?

Unless you mean they gave away seats and did two for ones and that having seats available at the box office after the event starts is a "sell out", than I guess they did. Go on a Tuesday to see Columbus v. Detroit. You can buy seats at the box at the start of the event.

**Jason** · May-22-12, 07:04 PM

On tv the announcers mention that it's the nth consecutive sell out during the opening.

The seats generally aren't full during the game. Nothing like the photo posted above. But the empty seats are generally either season ticket holders who didn't go to the game, and people busy buying drinks, pissing, and smoking.

**p69rrh51** · May-22-12, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

I was a little surprised about the number of seats, too. Although we should keep in mind that the total capacity is just one report on an arena that has yet to be designed; it certainly could change. Obviously. in general, Wings tickets have been a hot ticket. Yes, demand went down after the economic downturn, but in general they sell well. I would think that the thought of $50-100 x 40+games x 2000-3000 would encourage a little bigger stadium. That is a lot of dough, not even counting parking and concessions.

Second reason I think it should be bigger: I would think that it would remain at a disadvantage vs The Palace for booking top shows. The Palace has more seats than the proposal, and remains a modern and excellent place to put on a show [[with ample concessions, advertising, and suite revenue). Don't get me wrong, I dont want a giant, characterless barn. But 18,000 just would mot optimize revenue, or its benefits to dowtown.

Not even close to the cheap seats and how much do they pay for them? Just as the Palace was finishing I had a chance to chat with Matt Rosetti. When they were doing the initial design work for the Palace the staff met at the Joe and their first comment was this is what we are not going to do! At that point the Joe was only about 6 years old and already was being viewed as a joke!

**gthomas** · May-22-12, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

I don't see much chance at all of taxpayers cutting a check to assist in the building of the new arena/entertainment district. What the government [[city, county, state) might do is offer various tax breaks for the construction. They [[the gov't) would justify that as compensation for infrastructure improvements made in conjunction with the arena.

Unlike some people here, I have great respect [[even when I don't agree with him) for Ilitch. I think he's smart enough to know that if he asked for taxpayer money now: a) he would not get it, and b) he would look awful. At his age legacy is bound to be important to him, and he neither wants to be the man who takes his team away [[a la Walter O'Malley) or who contributes to bankrupting the city. I think he'll craft a plan for a landmark arena as a final Mike Illitch stamp on downtown.

I am very torn as to whether which of the 2 leading sites, Foxtown West or Temple East is better. Both have merit, and both would be an improvement. I will also take this chance to reiterate my theory that whichever one they choose for the arena, the other will be scooped up by Al Taubman for his legacy downtown mall/entertainment center. And I am sure they are coordinating with each other, and Dan Gilbert as well.

As for the Pistons, I hope they move downtown, but doubt that will happen anytime soon, unless Illitch shared ownership of the arena with Gores.

Anyway, I am happy to have this all to think about.

This type of layout for entertainment/retail in St. Louis can be use on the parking lot in from of Comerica Park, it will bring foot-traffic in that area not only on game days and is more appealing.

**jerrytimes** · May-22-12, 10:01 PM

Just a question, why would you not want to use some tax money for this? The new stadium will bring in construction jobs, and also it will pruce up and area of downtown that isn't as nice now as it would be then. Sure, the Joe brings people down, but it's not all that awesome around the stadium. When I go to Tigers games, I tend to stay downtown after or come early and do to a bar or something, when I go to the Joe, I don't. I know they aren't far from each other, but I'm not leaving my car over by the Joe and walking to the State Bar or Pegasus for some food.

**corktownyuppie** · May-22-12, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by jerrytimes

Just a question, why would you not want to use some tax money for this? The new stadium will bring in construction jobs, and also it will pruce up and area of downtown that isn't as nice now as it would be then. Sure, the Joe brings people down, but it's not all that awesome around the stadium. When I go to Tigers games, I tend to stay downtown after or come early and do to a bar or something, when I go to the Joe, I don't. I know they aren't far from each other, but I'm not leaving my car over by the Joe and walking to the State Bar or Pegasus for some food.

It's not that I'm opposed to using tax money on this. It's that municipal budgets have been cut by 30-40% or more in some jurisdictions and are having to make painful cuts. If there were tax money available, I'd say this would be a good investment. But to use the funds for this instead of 20 other priorities is to say that this is more valuable to the community than tons of other issues. I'd say it's unlikely to be that way. And even if it really should be the highest priority, politically it's a non-starter.

**Enduro** · May-22-12, 10:40 PM

The stadium in St. Louis is so much nicer than Comerica. First class the whole way, great retro vibe with modern amenities. They even had someone come by in the 6th inning just to collect trash.

They also had lots of plants and trees in the concourses, it was like walking in a park with interesting food options and lots of bathrooms. They also had a mini diamond made of paver stones for kids to play wiffleball on. You know, in case they're into baseball at the baseball game and more than merry-go-rounds.

**Bham1982** · May-22-12, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by jerrytimes

Just a question, why would you not want to use some tax money for this? The new stadium will bring in construction jobs, and also it will pruce up and area of downtown that isn't as nice now as it would be then.

All new construction will, by definition, result in new construction jobs. So you support scarce taxpayer subsidies for any and all new construction jobs, even when there's no money for streetlights or police?

**rb336** · May-23-12, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Occurrence

Not me. I really don't want another bland cookie-cutter arena [[which is probably what we are going to get) instead of an old retro-barn Olympia throwback.

HKS' last NHL job was American Airlines Center, which I think is quite attractive - and would fit well with ford field and comerica

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Dall...s/newindex.htm

**canuck** · May-23-12, 10:44 AM

[QUOTE=rb336;321171]HKS' last NHL job was American Airlines Center, which I think is quite attractive - and would fit well with ford field and comerica

Agreed. I like it better than a lot of the faceless arenas of late, including the Bell Center in my town which is faceless architecture as far I am concerned.
They also built the Bell Ctr on a city block that included old Windsor station and
a 19th century Canadian Pacific headquarters; they could have designed an awesome integration but didnt.

I hope thay can evoke some of the Olympia's character which is what you get in the AA Center in Dallas. I also like the openness of the street access on the AA, something usually missing in the sprawly southern cities in the past 50 years. If they design something as street friendly as this looks for the Wings, Pistons; they may actually help the smaller scale businesses on surrounding streets.

**Ltdave** · May-24-12, 04:24 PM

someone was mentioning this....

http://newolympia.blogspot.com/

**Gistok** · May-24-12, 04:53 PM

Thanks for remembering the link Ltdave. I like the west Foxtown site, but not the orientation of the arena.

f it were to have those nostalgic gables, I would prefer an east west orientation. Ideally what would be nice is if they moved the Blenheim Apts. [[vis a vis a Gem/Century move) to one of the "gaps" on Park Ave. [[maybe north of the Detroit Life Building, or elsewhere along Park... and put the arena near Park, with it facing towards Woodward and Comerica Park along the wide Columbia Ave. gap.

Between Comerica Park and Olympia, it would make for a great location for the retail center that the Ilitch's are talking about [[thus filling in much of the 2 blocks between the Fox and Comerica Park).

**Whitehouse** · May-24-12, 05:54 PM

Would it be a good idea to plan this at the former site of the Ford Theater?

**DetroitPlanner** · May-24-12, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Whitehouse

Would it be a good idea to plan this at the former site of the Ford Theater?

Only Ford Theater I know of is in Washington DC.

Occurrence · May-25-12, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Enduro

The stadium in St. Louis is so much nicer than Comerica. First class the whole way, great retro vibe with modern amenities. They even had someone come by in the 6th inning just to collect trash.

They also had lots of plants and trees in the concourses, it was like walking in a park with interesting food options and lots of bathrooms. They also had a mini diamond made of paver stones for kids to play wiffleball on. You know, in case they're into baseball at the baseball game and more than merry-go-rounds.

I'd imagine a lot of ballparks are better than Comerica. I personally can't stand the place and hate going to ballgames there. I don't understand why since 2006, people all of the sudden "like" Comerica.

Occurrence · May-25-12, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

HKS' last NHL job was American Airlines Center, which I think is quite attractive - and would fit well with ford field and comerica

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Dall...s/newindex.htm

I'm not a big fan of that one. It looks like every other round oval arena, Kind of boring. I'd like a little more character and something unique. Make the place intimate with overhangs and such, bring people closer to the action. Modern retro.

I haven't been to many arenas in person, but I was lucky enough to get to the Igloo in Pittsburgh the last year it was open, and that arena was awesome. We had seats on one of the overhangs and it was amazing. I was literally looking almost straight down onto the ice.

**schulzte** · May-26-12, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Occurrence

I'm not a big fan of that one. It looks like every other round oval arena, Kind of boring. I'd like a little more character and something unique. Make the place intimate with overhangs and such, bring people closer to the action. Modern retro.

I haven't been to many arenas in person, but I was lucky enough to get to the Igloo in Pittsburgh the last year it was open, and that arena was awesome. We had seats on one of the overhangs and it was amazing. I was literally looking almost straight down onto the ice.

The overhanging balconies is something the new arenas are really missing, and if the Red Wings do nothing resembling what I drew up in the New Olympia plan [[I hope they do), I hope at least they employ the overhanging balconies. The pitch of the seating would need to be steeper, but bringing the balconies closer to the ice surface would make those tickets more valuable, make the arena louder, and make the venue distinctive.

http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com

**canuck** · May-26-12, 07:23 PM

/shultze/The overhanging balconies is something the new arenas are really missing, and if the Red Wings do nothing resembling what I drew up in the New Olympia plan [[I hope they do), I hope at least they employ the overhanging balconies. The pitch of the seating would need to be steeper, but bringing the balconies closer to the ice surface would make those tickets more valuable, make the arena louder, and make the venue distinctive.

They would also make it easier to throw banana peels and lukewarm beer onto the ice.