Detroiters shot on a Pontiac Party Bus observing a robbery?

**Zacha341** · May-14-12, 11:12 AM

Hmm, that factor does seem to emerge... especially from the comment where it was assumed she was out 'creating' another child. Yeah that was too far for me...

Originally Posted by jt1

Had this been a mother from a well off family in Birmingham that was shot I suspect the sentiment would be very, very different.

**bailey** · May-14-12, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's neither here nor there. I'm sure there will be plenty of nineteen year old girls in Ann Arbor this fall sneaking into bars when they could be in the library studying... Should one of them happen to be killed in the crossfire from an armed robbery, I'm sure the last thing on any person's mind will be that they should have been somewhere studying.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the number of 19 yr UM girls out at the clubs at 2 am with a toddler at home is a number pretty close to zero. I'm also going to go out an a limb and say that the chances of being involved in a armed robbery and exposed to random gunfire also approaches zero in AA. In fact, a shooting like this would likely result in public outcry. Imagine if Buffy and Timmy's Frat/Sorority bar crawl was shot up in AA1?! I mean are you serious? Think anyone is going to give a shit about ANOTHER shooting in Pontiac?

Look, you don't want your shit stolen? don't leave it in plain view sitting on the front seat of your car when you park on any street in Detroit. Don't want to be near a robbery...or exposed to gunfire? don't go bar hopping in city with an enormous violent crime problem.

Maybe it's impolite to point it out, but if more people cared what 16,17,18 yr olds mothers [[and their sperm donors) were doing .... there might be fewer 17,18,19 yr old mothers out there and fewer kids lacking one or both parents due to violence and criminal mischief.

Originally Posted by bailey

Its hard to be in the "wrong place at the wrong time" when you're home with your toddler

Right, like nobody ever got hit by a stray round while sitting on their couch watching TV or sleeping.

Yeah, although, hardly a common occurrence. I mean, how many times has THAT happen compared to the number of times a weekend there gunfire outside a club at 2 am in Detroit or Flint or Pontiac? Also, how many times has that happened anywhere but in Detroit?

Really its a small point, but....don't go to the problem and there will be no problems. It'll be some other clubber getting shot for someone's snazzy glasses and your kid won't be an orphan.

**bailey** · May-14-12, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

Or, maybe she is a responsible mother and this was her one time out in the last year. Perhaps it was a birthday party or bachelorette party that was planned months ago, she had a babysitter and ventured out once for a friend.

Hate to break it to you but parents of all ages, racecs, socio-economic backgrounds, etc occasionally have baby sitters and go out.

Is it that she is from Detroit, 19, out at a 'club' or a combination of them that are making people assume she was being a delinquent parent.

Had this been a mother from a well off family in Birmingham that was shot I suspect the sentiment would be very, very different.

you're right. All those things COULD be true. And as I stated above, the reaction would be incredibly different. Why? because it would be unusual...shocking..."things like that don't happen here"....etc. But another kid shot outside a club in an area with a huge crime problem by some dumbass who wanted a shiny object someone else had is pretty much standard operating procedure for a disturbingly large segment of this regions populace.

I mean really... how many times are we going to see this movie and pretend to be shocked?

If you don't want to be exposed to violence, don't go to where the violence usually is.

**Zacha341** · May-14-12, 11:23 AM

I'll follow you around the corner a bit, but let's not think there are no U of M and other co-ed 'just from home' gals out-and-about at de' club, and frat house underage getting their swerve on, drinking and what not... Buffy and Brittany! They just don't have the babies as evidence of 'oopses' and other diversions from collegiate studies.

Wasn't there just a rash or robberies and some serial rapest trolling about up there? But yes, less gun violence... and far more outcry where that to occur!

Originally Posted by bailey

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the number of 19 yr UM girls out at the clubs at 2 am with a toddler at home is a number pretty close to zero. I'm also going to go out an a limb and say that the chances of being involved in a armed robbery and exposed to random gunfire also approaches zero in AA.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-14-12, 11:25 AM

Wow I googled porky's pontiac.. that place is pretty skanky
questionably not work safe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U4W1bm9c3Q

http://youferral.com/jobpost/show/54...ni-bar-pontiac

Here is an incident that happened at this bar the night before!
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/artic...0952446920.txt

Make you wonder two things Why would someone wearing Cartier Glasses go there? Make a trip from across town to get there?

Why on earth would a party bus stop at this club? Did everyone have on overcoats? What kind of mixed company crowd gets together to hang out at a skanky strip bar?

Lesson to be learned: Stay away from these places they are bad news, full of people of questionable values.

**Zacha341** · May-14-12, 11:30 AM

Yes! Goodness, Bailey it is sad these "shiny object[S]" seem to carry alot of weight. Again it about values, VALUES - v-a-u-l-e-s. Or lack therein where materialist junk is coveted and worshiped. Ugly.

**iheartthed** · May-14-12, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the number of 19 yr UM girls out at the clubs at 2 am with a toddler at home is a number pretty close to zero. I'm also going to go out an a limb and say that the chances of being involved in a armed robbery and exposed to random gunfire also approaches zero in AA. In fact, a shooting like this would likely result in public outcry. Imagine if Buffy and Timmy's Frat/Sorority bar crawl was shot up in AA1?! I mean are you serious? Think anyone is going to give a shit about ANOTHER shooting in Pontiac?

Look, you don't want your shit stolen? don't leave it in plain view sitting on the front seat of your car when you park on any street in Detroit. Don't want to be near a robbery...or exposed to gunfire? don't go bar hopping in city with an enormous violent crime problem.

Maybe it's impolite to point it out, but if more people cared what 16,17,18 yr olds mothers [[and their sperm donors) were doing .... there might be fewer 17,18,19 yr old mothers out there and fewer kids lacking one or both parents due to violence and criminal mischief.

Yeah, although, hardly a common occurrence. I mean, how many times has THAT happen compared to the number of times a weekend there gunfire outside a club at 2 am in Detroit or Flint or Pontiac? Also, how many times has that happened anywhere but in Detroit?

Really its a small point, but....don't go to the problem and there will be no problems. It'll be some other clubber getting shot for someone's snazzy glasses and your kid won't be an orphan.

Why does it matter so much to you that she has a 2 year old? Would she be any less dead without the 2 year old?

**Detwa** · May-14-12, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Wow I googled porky's pontiac.. that place is pretty skanky
questionably not work safe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U4W1bm9c3Q

http://youferral.com/jobpost/show/54...ni-bar-pontiac

From the ad:

IN NEED OF A EXPERIENCED COOK THAT CAN START IMMEDIATLY. THIS IS A FEMALE BIKINI BAR SO YOU MUST FEEL COMFORTABLE WORKING AROUND THIS AND NOT GET SIDE TRACKED. CALL OR STOP BY AND ASK FOR MIKE 586-222-4697
PORKYS BIKINI BAR AND GRILL 22 E KENNETT PONTIAC MI 48340

Location: PORKYS BIKINI BAR PONTIAC
Compensation: TBD
Telecommuting is ok.
This is a contract job.
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Phone calls about this job are ok.
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.

How does one "telecommute" to a job as a cook? LMAO

**bailey** · May-14-12, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Why does it matter so much to you that she has a 2 year old? Would she be any less dead without the 2 year old?

because the initial statement I was responding to was that she was 19 and on a bar crawl underage. The poster was then shouted down by "all teenagers drink and do silly things". My comment was to point out that this was not just "any" teenager...she was a 19 yr old who had a kid at 17. Clearly, she would not be dead if she was home with her kid at 2 am and not out at a strip club, in Pontiac. Its a huge tragedy. But again, if you don't want to risk being involved in violence, don't go blowing it out in violent places. Think about getting back to that kid sleeping at home and maybe call it a night at 10? Too much to ask?

And that applies across all socio economic and ethnic lines. If it was some "well off" [[term used above) 19 yr old white girl from ...where ever.... the same question will be raised. What the heck was she doing, as a 19 yr old and as a young mother, on a bar crawl at 2 am in Pontiac?

**jt1** · May-14-12, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

you're right. All those things COULD be true. And as I stated above, the reaction would be incredibly different. Why? because it would be unusual...shocking..."things like that don't happen here"....etc. But another kid shot outside a club in an area with a huge crime problem by some dumbass who wanted a shiny object someone else had is pretty much standard operating procedure for a disturbingly large segment of this regions populace.

I mean really... how many times are we going to see this movie and pretend to be shocked?

If you don't want to be exposed to violence, don't go to where the violence usually is.

You do realize that according to the FBI there were only 9 murders in Pontiac [[granted the population is low). While that is 9 too many it doesn't go along with your belief/argument that someone should expect to be killed by being in Pontiac.

Your premise isn't supported by the numbers which makes me wonder why you insist on saying anything short of 'she deserved to be killed and was a terrible mother'

**jt1** · May-14-12, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

because the initial statement I was responding to was that she was 19 and on a bar crawl underage. The poster was then shouted down by "all teenagers drink and do silly things". My comment was to point out that this was not just "any" teenager...she was a 19 yr old who had a kid at 17. Clearly, she would not be dead if she was home with her kid at 2 am and not out at a strip club, in Pontiac. Its a huge tragedy. But again, if you don't want to risk being involved in violence do go blowing it out in violent places. Think about that kid sleeping at home and maybe call it a night at 10? Too much to ask?

I hope you are willing to lecture all parents that have children that go out occasionally, because it does happen. Hell, go to Birmingham, Independence Township or Grosse Pointe and I'll bet you find a lot of mothers that go downtown for a night of partying. Should they all 'deserve' to die as well.

Methinks you are making assumptions about her based upon age, location and what she was doing on this one night.

**Detwa** · May-14-12, 12:24 PM

It's really disturbing that this thread is starting to echo the Trayvon Martin thread in the sentiment that this 19 year old black female caused her own death by being there. She wasn't committing a crime, it hasn't even been said whether or not she had alcohol in her system - not that it matters to her death but since some want to say she was out drinking - for all we know, she was just on the bus enjoying a laugh and some no-alcoholic drinks with her friends. What does it matter? She didn't deserve to die!

**jt1** · May-14-12, 12:28 PM

Everybody need a sad laugh [[since I'm having lunch at my desk and have a few minutes I figured I'd check some of Bailey's old posts). This was one of his posts in response to people criticizing Bob Bashara:

"Perhaps, but unlike some, I'll reserve casting aspersions upon a decent person in a time of tragedy. Perhaps that faith in Bob's basic goodness will be proven false, I don't know him that well.. but I do know some very well who are standing behind him in this and that earns him further credibility in my book. Personally, I think its particularly ghoulish to propose ridiculous theories on how he killed his wife before the body is even cold."

So heaven forbid anyone speak about Big Bob possibly killing his wife but you can pretty much piss on the body of a mother killed while doing nothing wrong because she was out at 2AM.

Is the hypocrisy socio-economic, geographic, racial?

**canuck** · May-14-12, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

You do realize that according to the FBI there were only 9 murders in Pontiac [[granted the population is low). While that is 9 too many it doesn't go along with your belief/argument that someone should expect to be killed by being in Pontiac.

Your premise isn't supported by the numbers which makes me wonder why you insist on saying anything short of 'she deserved to be killed and was a terrible mother'

I think he probably meant being "at a strip club" in Pontiac. In fact that is what is written. I think 9 murders is pretty high in a city of 50000 people. In fact some years it is a bit less, and others quite a bit higher; 19 in 2007 and 21 in 2008.

I also think it is screaming for shit to happen for anyone to hang out at a dive like that. They are asking for it, because that is what the culture is about, and the context fit the flying shit to a T. And a 2 year old is without a mom, again.

**iheartthed** · May-14-12, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

because the initial statement I was responding to was that she was 19 and on a bar crawl underage. The poster was then shouted down by "all teenagers drink and do silly things". My comment was to point out that this was not just "any" teenager...she was a 19 yr old who had a kid at 17. Clearly, she would not be dead if she was home with her kid at 2 am and not out at a strip club, in Pontiac. Its a huge tragedy. But again, if you don't want to risk being involved in violence, don't go blowing it out in violent places. Think about getting back to that kid sleeping at home and maybe call it a night at 10? Too much to ask?

You may not be intentionally doing this but it sounds as if you are being dismissive of this young woman's murder because of her background story. I don't think it matters where she was, doesn't matter that she had a child at a young age, and doesn't matter that she was at a bar when she was still under the legal drinking age. The point is that she was murdered through no fault of her own. Since I'm unaware of any law that says crimes in high crime areas matter less than they do in low crime areas... A young girl murdered at a night club in Pontiac DOES INDEED hold the same weight as a young girl at a bar in Ann Arbor where those "types of things don't happen".

**bailey** · May-14-12, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

Everybody need a sad laugh [[since I'm having lunch at my desk and have a few minutes I figured I'd check some of Bailey's old posts). This was one of his posts in response to people criticizing Bob Bashara:

"Perhaps, but unlike some, I'll reserve casting aspersions upon a decent person in a time of tragedy. Perhaps that faith in Bob's basic goodness will be proven false, I don't know him that well.. but I do know some very well who are standing behind him in this and that earns him further credibility in my book. Personally, I think its particularly ghoulish to propose ridiculous theories on how he killed his wife before the body is even cold."

So heaven forbid anyone speak about Big Bob possibly killing his wife but you can pretty much piss on the body of a mother killed while doing nothing wrong because she was out at 2AM.

Is the hypocrisy socio-economic, geographic, racial?

No, not at all actually. I've learned my lesson. Expect the worst in everyone and you'll never be wrong.

**Detroitnerd** · May-14-12, 12:46 PM

Whatever. It's just disgusting. People will twist anything into a kind of story that eases their consciences. Like when civilian casualties were reported in Iraq, people said, "Well, that's what they get for using civilians as 'human shields.'"

Anyway, the real conversation here is being laid between the lines. And you know what it is. And, of course, WE can't bring it up because then we'll never hear the end of how we brought up what we're really talking about ...

**rex** · May-14-12, 12:47 PM

Seems like people are being murdered in pontiac at an accelerated rate this year. Goes to show. More police does not equal safer streets

**bailey** · May-14-12, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

You may not be intentionally doing this but it sounds as if you are being dismissive of this young woman's murder because of her background story. I don't think it matters where she was, doesn't matter that she had a child at a young age, and doesn't matter that she was at a bar when she was still under the legal drinking age. The point is that she was murdered through no fault of her own. Since I'm unaware of any law that says crimes in high crime areas matter less than they do in low crime areas... A young girl murdered at a night club in Pontiac DOES INDEED hold the same weight as a young girl at a bar in Ann Arbor where those "types of things don't happen".

I'm not trying to be dismissive. I'm intensely frustrated that another kid was killed and yet another kid is orphaned. I'm frustrated that a 19 yr old with a toddler was the victim. and I'm upset that the guy will likely never be caught. I'm also disappointed on what some consider to be "normal" around here.

**rex** · May-14-12, 12:51 PM

according to the FBI 9 murders when? Last year? Im pretty sure there have been atleast 8 so far this year. 3 doubles and 2 singles that i remember reading about in the last few months

**Meddle** · May-14-12, 12:55 PM

Maybe getting rid of the PD in favor of the Sheriff wasn't such a good deal after all?

**Kevgoblue** · May-14-12, 12:56 PM

I'm feeling incredibly guilty right now. I have a 2 year old and I was out Saturday night. To make matters even worse, my wife was with me. We must be real shitbag parents to have a babysitter come over at 9 so we could get out of the house for a few hours.

Then again, 19 was 19 years ago, plus some. And we weren't in Pontiac, we went to downtown Birmingham. Since we're past the age where we want to go to the club, we just grabbed a bite to eat and caught a movie. Do I get a pass or am I irresponsible too?

**kenp** · May-14-12, 01:01 PM

I feel bad for the family and friends of the victims. The fact that people are trying to paint a negative picture of them has me a little miffed.
I read all the posts here and nothing about the story, why would a fool shoot at a bus full people.

**jt1** · May-14-12, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

No, not at all actually. I've learned my lesson. Expect the worst in everyone and you'll never be wrong.

Except Bob Bashara.

**jt1** · May-14-12, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by rex

according to the FBI 9 murders when? Last year? Im pretty sure there have been atleast 8 so far this year. 3 doubles and 2 singles that i remember reading about in the last few months

Sorry, I should have added the proper context. This was for 2010 which is the most recent year that the FBI has posted crime stats. Certainly a lot could change between then and now but I wanted to refute Bailey's assumption that anyone in Pontiac at 2AM deserves to get shot.