Lack of shopping at Renaissance Center Wintergarden

**bailey** · May-09-12, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

From a shareholder standpoint, yeah, it was a big waste of money. From a civic/corporate citizen standpoint it's probably one of the few things they did right. I think the GM renovations did a hell of a lot to correct the blunders of the building's original design. Of all the things that GM did during the 90s and 00s, the Ren Cen was probably the company's most successful project... And I don't think the Ren Cen is a failure because it can't support retail. The Empire State Building doesn't support retail that well either.

Ok, but the ESB doesn't have a giant mall grafted on it either. It has a lobby.

the RenCen had a food court and a couple of lobby levels of retail before Cullen's band of merry idiots got their hands on it. There was no need for the ridiculousness that is the Wintergarden. I mean, not only was it totally unnecessary, a hard sell in a good location [[as you allude to re: the ESB) its badly executed to boot. A lot of people watched that disaster unfold could not believe the fantasyland the people running the show were living in. I mean you should have seen some of the memos that went around with updates on the progress and the expected occupancy rates.

Further, saying that the RenCen was the most successful thing GM did in the 90s is not exactly setting a high bar there.lol

From a morale standpoint it was a disaster. From a financial standpoint it was a disaster. As far as it being good corporate citizenship...ok.. maybe. but, being a good corporate citizen didn't help them sell any cars. And they could have been better corporate citizens by actually getting the residential built..or at the very least, landscaping the riverfront parking lots into something to be used for something other than parking lots on the fucking RIVERFRONT. In any event, the State and the City could have moved in to the RenCen like they did at the old GM building and done the same thing GM did ...minus the wintergarden that is. They spent a ton getting the GM Building up to snuff... could have just as easily spent it on unfucking the disasterous interior layout of the RenCen.

**bailey** · May-09-12, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Another problem, IMO, is that there is a lack of an attraction in the RenCen. Somehow I always felt that GM could have done something with its auto display area that would be both interesting [there's a novel concept for them] and would even help sell their cars. Perhaps build an environment out from that core with side activities, shops and cafes along the edges. Likewise the Wintergarden atrium does not have an inviting 'I'd like to hang out here' feel. The Starbucks is the only space that comes close to that with its leisurely pod balcony seating. Point of all this being… there is not a whole lot of a reason to go to the RenCen unless you have to do something specific.

The RiverWalk has greatly improved the riverside attraction-wise and has to have helped bring in foot traffic. But even that has a hard cold concrete feel and has its continuity disrupted by having a road between the river and buildings. One would think something could be done to attract travelers from the nearby cruise ship port but, then again, why on earth would anyone want to go inside? A compelling interior attraction is dearly needed.

Somehow I feel this place has great potential; it just hasn't had the right person to interpret it. I hope that day comes.

The only thing that is going to make it relevant is replacing the acres and acres of surface parking lots with residential. You need people there...daily... to drive demand. Part of the justification for the wintergarden's construction in the first place was the planned residential developments. Problem being, the residential was never and likely never will [[anytime in anything resembling the near term anyway) be built.

**Gistok** · May-09-12, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

The Wintergarden, the disaster that is that stupid parking deck and that abortion of a faux "chinatown", the failed residential, and to a greater extent the entire Ren Cen itself stands today as a testament to GMs 90s and 00's leadership's loss of focus on BUILDING CARS and instead played at being real estate developers.

Bailey, you make an extremely weak analog between GMs real estate ventures and building cars.

How do you explain FORD's real estate sprawl at their huge Fairlane compex in Dearborn [[which has had quite a few failures with the slowly dying Fairlane mall, the defunct Ritz Carlton and now the Hyatt) and yet they were doing well automotively, and didn't require a bailout.

Not everyone at GM was focused on real estate, as you seem to suggest... most were focused on cars... they may not have gotten it right... but that had nothing to do with the move to the Ren Cen... since most car developers were located in Warren...

Using your odd analogy maybe the Warren Tech Center is the problem....

**Bham1982** · May-09-12, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Bailey, you make an extremely weak analog between GMs real estate ventures and building cars.

How do you explain FORD's real estate sprawl at their huge Fairlane compex in Dearborn [[which has had quite a few failures with the slowly dying Fairlane mall, the defunct Ritz Carlton and now the Hyatt) and yet they were doing well automotively, and didn't require a bailout.

Ford didn't develop the Fairlane complex. Ford Land developed it.

Ford Land is totally independent from Ford. There's no financial relationship whatsoever.

**bailey** · May-09-12, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Bailey, you make an extremely weak analog between GMs real estate ventures and building cars.

How do you explain FORD's real estate sprawl at their huge Fairlane compex in Dearborn [[which has had quite a few failures with the slowly dying Fairlane mall, the defunct Ritz Carlton and now the Hyatt) and yet they were doing well automotively, and didn't require a bailout.

Not everyone at GM was focused on real estate, as you seem to suggest... most were focused on cars... they may not have gotten it right... but that had nothing to do with the move to the Ren Cen... since most car developers were located in Warren...

Using your odd analogy maybe the Warren Tech Center is the problem....

Your comparisons make no sense and you've completely missed my point. I mean, seriously... Ford didn't build Fairlaine in 2005/06/07 when the auto industry was melting down and senior leadership mortgaged everything...right down to the Blue Oval, just to keep the doors open.

The point was that at GM, during a period of HUGE losses and massive problems, VERY senior leadership chose to focus on the not very minor or small task of moving the World HQ of the World's largest auto company [[at the time). For, what became very clear, no real reason other than vanity.

Yes, I understand that designers were still designing and people can multi task. However, from people that were there at the time describing the atmosphere, there was daily involvement for YEARS from very senior level management. It was a giant distraction AND it was a bad plan which was then poorly executed.

And what is to show for all of the chaos and billions down the rabbit hole? Again, an awkward, isolated and empty mall, failed residential developments, and an awkward and isolated HQ.

Which is exactly what was predicted would happen. Look the OP was commenting on why its empty. It's empty because a badly run company with dumb leadership thought they were smarter than everyone else who was telling them not to do it. They built a mall in a city with little, if any, market for high end [[or any) retail... and then built it in a place that is entirely hidden from view. They abandoned an architectural gem [[luckily the state and city stepped in) to drop billions to renovate a disaster of a building. All the while the company's ACTUAL reason for being... crumbled.

p.s. its also worth noting again, the guy who ran that shitshow is now the point man for M1 rail.

**Gistok** · May-09-12, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Ford didn't develop the Fairlane complex. Ford Land developed it.

Ford Land is totally independent from Ford. There's no financial relationship whatsoever.

Ford, Ford Land... Ford family.... They don't operate in a vacuum.... they're interrelated.... the family has its hands in all 3...

**Gistok** · May-09-12, 03:28 PM

And last I checked... the $500 million [[not billions) redevelopment of the RenCen ended in 2004... not 2005-07.

Granted they had further plans [[$$$) for the east riverfront land... but the economy put a kabosh on that.

**One Shot** · May-09-12, 04:23 PM

As goofy the layout is at the Ren Cen I always thought it was cool. Very confusing to walk around and still don't know where I'm going. But I think thats always been my attraction to it. Need I mention Robocop OCP?

**stasu1213** · May-09-12, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

I think the vacancies are a combination of the RenCen's management and Detroit's woes, but most of all with architecture and geometry. The RenCen is a maze to navigate and the architecture is rather brutal. This is very hard to fix, but I think the recent renovations have helped. But to be fair, there are many businesses inside such as CVS and the Cinema and the biggest Pot Belly I have ever seen. As far as retail shopping, architecture is a problem again because there are not spaces for anchor department stores so smaller footprint stores have a hard time... it's not a mall. That is why service-oriented stores do much better and cater to the employees in the building.

I agree that the design of the RenCen is poor. The glass walkway was probably put in so that navagation would be easier in the RenCen. I also know that street shopping is needed in downtown Detroit where retail would line Woodward instead of crowding the RenCen. If feel that the WinterGarden could have some shops or more independent boutiques in it. I would even say an Art Gallery and maybe another Starbucks would do good in the WinterGardens

**EastsideAl** · May-09-12, 05:37 PM

Retail growth on Woodward and elsewhere in actual street-level downtown is far more important for the area's and the city's future than what happens insider the Ren Cen. And I would much rather see the focus placed there. Anyway, retail has always been a tough go at Ren Cen, for a number of reasons, not the least being its isolation from the city around it, and I see no realistic reason to think that will change.

**eastland** · May-09-12, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Retail growth on Woodward and elsewhere in actual street-level downtown is far more important for the area's and the city's future than what happens insider the Ren Cen. And I would much rather see the focus placed there. Anyway, retail has always been a tough go at Ren Cen, for a number of reasons, not the least being its isolation from the city around it, and I see no realistic reason to think that will change.

The isolation was intended. The RenCen was designed as a fortress -- remember the concrete berms in front with a narrow opening at the foot of Brush -- to keep the public out.

**EastsideAl** · May-09-12, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by eastland

The isolation was intended. The RenCen was designed as a fortress -- remember the concrete berms in front with a narrow opening at the foot of Brush -- to keep the public out.

It sure was. I remember the berms well. They sent a pretty clear message. GM did a good thing taking those out, but the place still feels like a fortress, and isolated from the rest of the city. Inside, even after a couple of renovations, it feels like a particularly confusing section of suburbia. As if someone designed a mall specifically so that you can't find anything in it, and can't find your way in or out of it.

In other words, it has just about nothing going for it as a retail destination, aside from the captive population inside. And, other than lunchtime, that really isn't the source of a lot of business either. My guess is that most of the people who work there don't shop or dally around the Ren Cen after work. They simply get back in their cars at the end of their working day and drive back out to the suburbs to shop, eat, etc. at whatever big box stores and malls are near where they live.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-09-12, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Ford didn't develop the Fairlane complex. Ford Land developed it.

Ford Land is totally independent from Ford. There's no financial relationship whatsoever.

What you talking about Willis?? The name of the agency is FORD MOTOR LAND DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION. It owns Fairlane which is named after Ford's Home. Fairlane contains more than just a mall, it also has a lot of offices, most of which are filled by Ford workers. It also is charged with getting rid of closed factories and manufacturing equipment that were used by the Ford Motor Company. Want to buy or sell a Ford Dealership?? Ford Land is your broker whether you want it or not.

http://www.fordland.com/

**douglasm** · May-10-12, 07:11 AM

In reading this thread, I'm struck a little bit by what hasn't really been mentioned so far. Ren Cen is an office building, and what's worse, it's a stand alone office building. Granted there's the hotel aspect to it, but when you think of it, now much non-building related retail activity to you find in any major office building?

**Bham1982** · May-10-12, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

What you talking about Willis?? The name of the agency is FORD MOTOR LAND DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION. It owns Fairlane which is named after Ford's Home. Fairlane contains more than just a mall, it also has a lot of offices, most of which are filled by Ford workers. It also is charged with getting rid of closed factories and manufacturing equipment that were used by the Ford Motor Company. Want to buy or sell a Ford Dealership?? Ford Land is your broker whether you want it or not.

http://www.fordland.com/

Everything you stated is true. And nothing you stated contradicts my point.

Again, Ford Land is totally separate from Ford. They've been independent for decades.

If GM wants to create a subsidiary, and then sell it off, and that entity engages in wacky real estate practices, fine. It's very different from GM itself with capital expenditures invested in edifice complexes, rather than in their core mission.

**bailey** · May-10-12, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

And last I checked... the $500 million [[not billions) redevelopment of the RenCen ended in 2004... not 2005-07.

Granted they had further plans [[$$$) for the east riverfront land... but the economy put a kabosh on that.

They secured 75 million in financing for the initial purchase, but didn't own it, they leased it from the banks that financed the deal. Then they borrowed 500 million to renovate the building they were LEASING. THEN dropped 625 million in cash in 2007 to buy it outright. [[a year in which they LOST 39 [[!) Billion dollars). IIRC, that basically paid off the reno costs... which probably wasnt a terrible idea... however, you'll recall they tried to get the DPD and Fire pension funds to buy the building shortly thereafter. A plea that was ignored.

All of this to save the estimated 100 million it would have cost to renovate the GM building in New Center in the 90s.

Look, what's done is done. The HQ move wasn't the ONLY thing that was wrong with GM. Also, a billion in procuring and gutting a white elephant is a drop in a bucket to a company that lost 100s of billions in the preceding years. But c'mon... by all measures [[other than it looks nice when photographed from a distance) it's a failure. and it was obvious it was going to be a failure to everyone but a small group of senior execs.

**iheartthed** · May-10-12, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Everything you stated is true. And nothing you stated contradicts my point.

Again, Ford Land is totally separate from Ford. They've been independent for decades.

If GM wants to create a subsidiary, and then sell it off, and that entity engages in wacky real estate practices, fine. It's very different from GM itself with capital expenditures invested in edifice complexes, rather than in their core mission.

I believe it was called GMAC... Now known as Ally.

**mwilbert** · May-10-12, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by douglasm

Granted there's the hotel aspect to it, but when you think of it, now much non-building related retail activity to you find in any major office building?

It really depends on where the building is. In places where people walk, ground-floor retail is common in large office buildings that are integrated into the street grid. One problem with the RenCen is that even with the berms removed, it isn't in the path of anybody who isn't going to the RenCen. That is where buildings forming a street wall really make a difference.

**bailey** · May-10-12, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by douglasm

In reading this thread, I'm struck a little bit by what hasn't really been mentioned so far. Ren Cen is an office building, and what's worse, it's a stand alone office building. Granted there's the hotel aspect to it, but when you think of it, now much non-building related retail activity to you find in any major office building?

That question was asked, repeatedly, at the time of the plans and then during construction. The answer was, "build it and they will come".

I kid you not, they pushed the idea that this would be Detroit's version of Chicago's Water Tower Place.....

**canuck** · May-10-12, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by douglasm

In reading this thread, I'm struck a little bit by what hasn't really been mentioned so far. Ren Cen is an office building, and what's worse, it's a stand alone office building. Granted there's the hotel aspect to it, but when you think of it, now much non-building related retail activity to you find in any major office building?

It would certainly help if transit had been integrated and that street access had been originally made more welcoming.

There are plenty of canadian examples of office complexes with a huge retail component. The notable ingredient is that they have underground parking for drivers and access to underground pathways which give pedestrians an option of using more than one subway station and line.

If streetrail were to happen in Detroit, I wish some of the bigger buildings; RenCen chief among them could integrate stations thereby providing shelter to potential clients. I really believe the missing ingredients are in the transit access department. If you park your car in one part of downtown, and use it for a dedicated errand, you may not want to stop at another parking space in the city for shopping.

Here are some office complexes similar to RenCen that have had successful retail, one of them since 1962.

http://www.complexedesjardins.com/EN/
http://www.placevillemarie.com/en/home.php

**bailey** · May-10-12, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by canuck

It would certainly help if transit had been integrated and that street access had been originally made more welcoming.

There are plenty of canadian examples of office complexes with a huge retail component. The notable ingredient is that they have underground parking for drivers and access to underground pathways which give pedestrians an option of using more than one subway station and line.

If streetrail were to happen in Detroit, I wish some of the bigger buildings; RenCen chief among them could integrate stations thereby providing shelter to potential clients. I really believe the missing ingredients are in the transit access department. If you park your car in one part of downtown, and use it for a dedicated errand, you may not want to stop at another parking space in the city for shopping.

Here are some office complexes similar to RenCen that have had successful retail, one of them since 1962.

http://www.complexedesjardins.com/EN/
http://www.placevillemarie.com/en/home.php

RenCen is already a stop on the PM line. The only way to get it MORE integrated would be to run a train around back [[riverside) of the building....

**krapug1** · May-10-12, 12:09 PM

Given the Ren Center layout, and how it relates to the rest of downtown, it's retail potential is limited to service businesses, and only a handful at that.

Many of us remember when the Ren Center first opened with it's impressive array of upscale stores, and most of us knew that would not last.
During the first Christmas Season after Hudson's closed downtown [[1983), they opened a "pop-up" version of the Little People's Store hoping to draw from people viewing the Festival of Trees at Cobo, and that didn't work.

Trying to draw comparisons with mixed use projects in other cities is tricky.
Too often "downtown" malls have failed in the USA, and those that work have
VERY different demographics. The Copley Place & Prudential Center in Boston prosper as they are attached to not only fully leased office buildings, but residential high rises, several hotels, and between their 4 anchor stores,
2 of them [[Barney's and Saks) have no other Boston area locations.
Not to mention a city with a growing population.

For now, developing street level retail [[Woodward), and residential buildings
should be the priority.

Ken

**douglasm** · May-10-12, 12:32 PM

The comparison I was thinking of was with the Fisher Building, a lobby with a fair ammount of retail space, but none with a direct connection to the sidewalk as I remember, requiring a physical entry into the lobby before accessing the shops and services. In Seattle's downtown core [[for example) there are high rises with retail, but they tend to be designed in such a way that you can access them from street level.

**Wintersmommy** · May-10-12, 12:54 PM

i would think that they [[who ever they are) should tie into the new criuse ship hub on the riverwalk. There should be some touristy shops [[in addition to Pure Detroit) type shops there selling Michigan made stuff for example. There are lots of tourists in the RenCen at any given time and they could find a way to cater to them.

**canuck** · May-10-12, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

RenCen is already a stop on the PM line. The only way to get it MORE integrated would be to run a train around back [[riverside) of the building....

You are right about the PM connection, that is not negligible, But for the size of the place, it certainly could receive a major loop of streetrail on the riverside and thus provide an entry to the River Walk. I agree with all those who favor rebuilding core retail along Woodward, but the metro Detroit is a strong enough market to warrant malls and foodcourts in several office and mixed use developments. Detroit's downtown needs to become the hub of finance, entertainment and shopping that made it a destination for tourists and suburbanites. This entails giving proper delivery of transit strategies to all who would frequent business establishments in that vast area.