Gentrification?

**sumas** · April-23-12, 06:23 PM

Love my house, love my neighbors, making investments into our neighborhood.

Did get a pause when a neighbor's husband worried too many white folk moving in. This disturbs me.

I can't even articulate what bothers me so. We are not rich, giggle lots on that one. We cut our grass, look out for our neighbors.

What is the issue here, I don't see one. Kind of like I mind my business you mind yours but I want a street that is clean and neat. They want the same but what is this color issue?

**Detroitnerd** · April-23-12, 06:28 PM

Gentrification hasn't happened here so much, so it's worth defining it.

If "gentrification" just means that you share your neighborhood with more professionals and upper-income people and it raises the value of your house too, that's not really gentrification to me.

It's when government and corporations and real estate people conspire to make a lot of money by consolidating their hold on a neighborhood by getting rid of people then selectively restoring services the neighborhood didn't have before. It's a kind of cheating, I think, more than a neighborhood just getting richer and nicer.

I apologize for any completely coincidental similarities between "gentrification" and Detroit Works in advance. Thank you.

**gameguy56** · April-23-12, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

Love my house, love my neighbors, making investments into our neighborhood.

Did get a pause when a neighbor's husband worried too many white folk moving in. This disturbs me.

I can't even articulate what bothers me so. We are not rich, giggle lots on that one. We cut our grass, look out for our neighbors.

What is the issue here, I don't see one. Kind of like I mind my business you mind yours but I want a street that is clean and neat. They want the same but what is this color issue?

Gentrification happens in major coastal cities with overheated real estate values and a never-ending stream of young professionals moving into neighborhoods previously full of disadvantaged residents and then the landlords jack up the rents so that the existing residents are basically 'forced' out.

I don't think that's happening in Detroit. It's more of a trickle of urban pioneers. When, instead of 200,000 people leaving Detroit in 10 years, it's 200,000 people moving to Detroit in 10 years, we may have an argument for gentrification.

**Bham1982** · April-23-12, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

Did get a pause when a neighbor's husband worried too many white folk moving in. This disturbs me.

Accoring to the 2010 Census, with the exception of downtown and midtown, the white population is declining in Detroit.

So there's white growth in maybe 2-3% of the city, and white decline in the rest. So if presence of newcomer whites is some harbinger of gentrification, it doesn't seem to be happening, or at least not yet.

Maybe there's black gentrifcation, or non-race specific gentrification occuring in smaller enclaves in other parts of the city, but nothing of significance.

**Detroitnerd** · April-23-12, 07:06 PM

I love how Bham, from his perch out in the suburbs, sees all. See, Sumas? No need to notice anything changing on your street: Bham has spoken. [giggles]

**Bham1982** · April-23-12, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I love how Bham, from his perch out in the suburbs, sees all. See, Sumas? No need to notice anything changing on your street: Bham has spoken. [giggles]

Read my post. I cited the 2010 Census.

Or are you claiming that Sumas' backyard anecdotal observations trump the research from hundreds of PhDs and thousands of employees working to enumerate the decennial Census?

**Detroitnerd** · April-23-12, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Read my post. I cited the 2010 Census.

Or are you claiming that Sumas' backyard anecdotal observations trump the research from hundreds of PhDs and thousands of employees working to enumerate the decennial Census?

Hell, yeah, when it comes to his street.

Let the man talk. I think he's probably the best judge of what's going on when it comes to his street. It's not anecdotal so much as empirical.

Anyway, Jesus H. Christ, what a totally nonexistent sense of humor you have, Bham.

**canuck** · April-23-12, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Hell, yeah, when it comes to his street.

Let the man talk. I think he's probably the best judge of what's going on when it comes to his street. It's not anecdotal so much as empirical.

Anyway, Jesus H. Christ, what a totally nonexistent sense of humor you have, Bham.

Sumas is a lady.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-24-12, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Read my post. I cited the 2010 Census.

Or are you claiming that Sumas' backyard anecdotal observations trump the research from hundreds of PhDs and thousands of employees working to enumerate the decennial Census?

Actually, both might very well be accurate. I'm sure Sumas is aware of what is going on in her corner of Detroit. And the census covered 2000 - 2010. By reflecting 10 years of activity, its doesn't necessarily reflect the current trends in a specific neighborhood. Or who is to say that the last couple of years have not had a different trend from the prior 10 anyway?

The racial divide truly harms the whole metropolitan area. While there is nothing necessarily wrong with an overwhelming white or black or brown neighborhood, if I could wave my magic wand and move people around, I would radically diversify much of the area.

**Bham1982** · April-24-12, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

Actually, both might very well be accurate. I'm sure Sumas is aware of what is going on in her corner of Detroit. And the census covered 2000 - 2010. By reflecting 10 years of activity, its doesn't necessarily reflect the current trends in a specific neighborhood. Or who is to say that the last couple of years have not had a different trend from the prior 10 anyway?

The Census reflects real-time conditions as of Summer 2010. It doesn't concern itself with anything prior to Summer 2010.

You're right that the data is now out-of-date, but it's a stretch to suggest that conditions have shifted so radically in 20 or so months, especially in the absense of any supporting data.

Granted, conditions may be changing on Sumas' block, and her anecdotes may be correct, but my point is there's no evidence of large-scale gentrification within city limits. Generally speaking, the city is dealing with the opposite problem.

**mwilbert** · April-24-12, 01:29 PM

I meant to address this in my earlier post:

Rents go up for the renters and taxes go up for the owners.

The tax part is presumably not true anymore in Michigan, given the limitations on increases in assessment, which I why I think in Detroit the downside of gentrification to neighborhood residents, at least economically, is pretty limited.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-24-12, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The Census reflects real-time conditions as of Summer 2010. It doesn't concern itself with anything prior to Summer 2010.

You're right that the data is now out-of-date, but it's a stretch to suggest that conditions have shifted so radically in 20 or so months, especially in the absense of any supporting data.

Granted, conditions may be changing on Sumas' block, and her anecdotes may be correct, but my point is there's no evidence of large-scale gentrification within city limits. Generally speaking, the city is dealing with the opposite problem.

Yes and no. The census population data is a snapshot as of that time, but the percentage changes documented in the census are based on the prior census. And nobody has claimed that there was any large scale gentrification within the city. The census itself is pretty useless in determining if Islandview [[or any other neighborhood) is currently seeing a small increase, and if more of that increase consists of white residents than are currently present in that area.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-23-12, 07:07 PM

Sumas: What neighborhood do you live in? Do you notice an increase in white residents?

**GoGrixdale** · April-23-12, 07:30 PM

We've gotten 3 non-coloreds in our neighborhood in the past year and a half. Add those to the others I'd say the ratio must be pushing 20%.

...can't say they seem wealthy ...just regular

Woodward tween 6 & 7

Me, and those I pal around with, PRAY for [[re)gentrification.

**Det_ard** · April-23-12, 07:40 PM

You can't have gentrification unless those moving in are richer than the original residents of the neighborhood. So if a neighborhood goes from upper-middle class to lower class to middle class, it's not gentrification.

Source: me.

**antongast** · April-23-12, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

You can't have gentrification unless those moving in are richer than the original residents of the neighborhood. So if a neighborhood goes from upper-middle class to lower class to middle class, it's not gentrification.

Source: me.

Well, I think "gentrification" is synonymous with "bear attacks." If there are no bears involved, it's not gentrification.

**Det_ard** · April-23-12, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

Well, I think "gentrification" is synonymous with "bear attacks." If there are no bears involved, it's not gentrification.

Good to know.

**rb336** · April-23-12, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

Well, I think "gentrification" is synonymous with "bear attacks." If there are no bears involved, it's not gentrification.

what about coyotes?

**antongast** · April-23-12, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

what about coyotes?

Coyotes are typically a byproduct of exclusionary zoning laws.

**gazhekwe** · April-23-12, 08:26 PM

Is "gentrification" the new Detroit definition for "getting dark around here"?\

I always thought "gentrification" meant people with money coming in and buying chunks of property at low prices, Putting in lots of improvements, making it nice so more people noticed and came in at low prices, and made improvements, until suddenly property values increased, then rents went up and current residents could not afford to stay.

**Hermod** · April-24-12, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

I always thought "gentrification" meant people with money coming in and buying chunks of property at low prices, Putting in lots of improvements, making it nice so more people noticed and came in at low prices, and made improvements, until suddenly property values increased, then rents went up and current residents could not afford to stay.

Rents go up for the renters and taxes go up for the owners. People are economically forced from their homes which then leads to more gentrification.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-24-12, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Rents go up for the renters and taxes go up for the owners. People are economically forced from their homes which then leads to more gentrification.

... and the next thing you know, your city's not going broke. City Hall hires more people. A coffee shop opens. Your kids have jobs in the community.

Gentrification is good. This isn't a racial thing at all. Look at Old Redford. Motor City Java House. Next thing you know, they're playing chess on the street --> http://g.co/maps/8vmnm

**dmike76** · April-24-12, 09:29 AM

I've been over to Old Redford recently. I worked with the Blight Busters for a weekend or two last month and I was very impressed with that block. It's an oasis in a desert of ruin. Is it gentrification or local people caring about their neighborhood and taking it back from the criminal element of that area? I tend to think it's the latter.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-24-12, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by dmike76

I've been over to Old Redford recently. I worked with the Blight Busters for a weekend or two last month and I was very impressed with that block. It's an oasis in a desert of ruin. Is it gentrification or local people caring about their neighborhood and taking it back from the criminal element of that area? I tend to think it's the latter.

What's the difference? Are the results the same in your mind? Or is there a difference other than in what one thinks is in the minds of the new residents? Is a black family from Birmingham moving into Old Redford gentrification?

As Detroit thrives, this will become an issue.

**Danny** · April-25-12, 09:57 AM

Some folks on this forum got the point. Gentrification is not about race, its about improving certian areas that are blighted and once filled with drug dealers, gangs, street violence, squatters, vacant and condemed buildings by eliminating low class folks and replace it with higher income folks. Downtown Detroit, Jefferson Village, Herman Gardens, Morningside, Lafayette Park, Brush Park, Woodbridge Estates, midtown and certain once blighted urban prarie ghettohoods of Detroit are being transformed into real neighborhoods once again.

In Chicago's Near North Side near the Gold Coast neighborhood. The CHA had to eliminate the Cabrini-Green Apartments Complex due to 50 years of street violence, the heavy flow of gangs turning the complexes into a drug emporium or should I say "DRUGS R US." However when new housing arouse from its urban praries, CHA and its private developers make sure that the residents of formwe Cabrini-Green apartment complexes gets first priority of those luxury homes through section 8 vouchers. The project worked and many wealthy folks are living with low-income folks creating a better urban enviroment for their families and children. The project can do the same in Detroit. Even though gentrification could be bad for low-income folks ot other low-income folks it could their savior from blight. Detroit will continue to be gentrified by any means neccessary. Private real estate companies give a hoot if Detroit is flat broke and filled with black folks, po-folks, mutants, schizos, pigeon rats, crazy street preachers and Coleman Young struggle folks. Once they can change a community for the better or for greed and money and power, Either Detroiters step in to get out of their way.

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