M-1 Opening It's Pockets To Get Some Transit

[antongast]

No I drive a car... like about 99% of the folks in metro Detroit... which besides the headache of parking along Woodward [[which in and of itself is a headache with all the parking restrictions)... I like to make left turns...

Maybe don't speak for them then, kthx.

[Gistok]

How did they do the parade for 32 years with the islands on Woodward?

Good question... horns to the left... woodwinds to the right??

[Gistok]

Maybe don't speak for them then, kthx.

Sorry, I didn't know you were the forum police...

[antongast]

Sorry, I didn't know you were the forum police...

If anything, I'm the Basic Human Decency police, which is not at all the same thing.

[Detroitnerd]

Sorry, I didn't know you were the forum police...

Nobody expects the forum police!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSMJ-o

[ghettopalmetto]

You know, there is one huge upshot for a curb-running streetcar. By placing the streetcar tracks along the curb, that means...[[wait for it)...a future light rail line from the suburbs could run downtown in the median.

That is, if Rick Snyder, the Legislature, and the leaders of the region ever get their heads out of their asses.

[casscorridor]

You know, there is one huge upshot for a curb-running streetcar. By placing the streetcar tracks along the curb, that means...[[wait for it)...a future light rail line from the suburbs could run downtown in the median.

That is, if Rick Snyder, the Legislature, and the leaders of the region ever get their heads out of their asses.

Lol, I hope I am catching your sarcasm here.

A way more unrealistic option would be keeping the streetcar, expanding it into a more comprehensive local system, and constructing a subway under Woodward, and making into the first leg of a regional mass transit system akin to BART, DC Metro or Marta. But as the popular slogan in May of 68 read: Be Realistic, Demand the Impossible.

[Gistok]

If anything, I'm the Basic Human Decency police, which is not at all the same thing.

lol.... alrighty then!

Good point GP!

DN... I know it sounds petty to have the parade on Woodward... but Devin and Carmen are much more photogenic on Woodward... I know that the floats could probably go down one side of center median... but my niece was exiting I-75 onto Mack 2 years ago [[a month before the parade)... and she was struck by an unwieldy float who didn't yield the right of way.... lol... [[true story!).

[ghettopalmetto]

Lol, I hope I am catching your sarcasm here.

A way more unrealistic option would be keeping the streetcar, expanding it into a more comprehensive local system, and constructing a subway under Woodward, and making into the first leg of a regional mass transit system akin to BART, DC Metro or Marta. But as the popular slogan in May of 68 read: Be Realistic, Demand the Impossible.

Actually, I'm not being sarcastic at all. Perhaps a bit overly optimistic, but not sarcastic.

I think a streetcar system would work just fine as a local service, particularly within the Grand Boulevard loop. Kind of like Portland, or San Francisco Muni, or the new SLUT [[tee hee) in Seattle. Ultimately, I think a regional [[meaning city-and-inner-suburbs) light rail system is necessary, with regional rail service on existing freight tracks to the distant suburbs [[and Flint, Ann Arbor, etc).

The existence of a curb-running streetcar would also mean that a future light rail line along Woodward could have faster service between Midtown and Grand Circus. Think express/local service between light rail/streetcar.

I know I'm dreaming here. But what the hell?

[lukabottle]

Improving transit sounds great. Are you willing to pay for it? Portland implemented a regional sales tax. Lets get the Regional Transit Authority passed and then create some dedicated funding for transit. Our current system is grossly underfunded. Maybe we can all get our heads out of our asses, and tell our Senators and Reps to pass the RTA bills, and push for a funding ballot measure. Encourage your family members to call too!

A street car from New Center to Downtown in the current design probably can't be expanded on. I don't mind having the People Mover two but at least have it connect to a regional plan with dedicated funding.

Let's stop MDOT from wasting money with the expansion of I-94 and tell them we want transit instead.
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...it-s-Future%29

[stasu1213]

As is repeatedly cited on this thread and everytime this topic comes up, the corridor upon which this "rail" is being laid is ALREADY the most heavily traveled line in the DDOT/SMART system. So, my question is...if it's already the MOST HEAVILY TRAVELED by those in the area, where are all the bustling business of which you speak? Why will they suddenly appear when a curb running, stuck in traffic, trolley gets put in?

What additional ridership and residential demand will come from putting rails under the bus?

Someone above threw out the old chestnut of "not letting the perfect get in the way of the good". When I hear that I immediately assume the person saying it is trying to sell me on something that solves none of my problems. If we're not letting the "perfect" get in the way of the "good" why the fuck not just do BRT everywhere? Hell, let's save a few 100 million and do nothing? that is "good" right?

I mean seriously, no matter how much "private" money is thrown in to get this disaster off the ground, its still a parking shuttle that goes from nowhere that anyone other than an infinitesimally small proportion of the region's 4.5 million need to go or where they live....and yet the region will be told they MUST support this because...well....not sure. Because something​ is better than nothing?

Again, I am not anti transit. I'm anti stupid/halfassed
/ warmed over/ we have to do something/People Mover II- Electric Bugaloo that this will be.

Just think about what transit in this region is going to look like when this debacle is finished. You'll have a curbside trolley going from Jefferson to [[maybe) Grand Blvd. Meanwhile, Downtown the PM will still be circling...in one direction...when it's working. And once you hit the end of the trolley line at Grand Blvd, you need to get on a bus. And once you get on that bus, you then need to change again in the burbs to the SMART or the soon to be created THIRD bus system for the BRT joke. Because why? Because there will never be a functioning RTA as long as teabaggers in the sprawl run the show.

Oh yeah, and after all this ridiculousness, you STILL can't get to the airport any easier than now....

Some people on this blog had said that a train that runs from Jefferson to 8mile down Woodward was a train to nowhere. I totally disagree. The people mover is a train to nowhere for it didn't go to the New Center Area. Had the People Mover been built on the ground instead of elevated it would had been less expensive to construct and ran futher into New Center or beyond. Whoever were the planners, developers, and investors of this project didn't use common sense on this project. I feel that a small train or trolley LIKE car should be used for the 3 miles. In the middle and not over to the side. Penske and others probably wanted to build the tracks in the middle but was having trouble from the city to do it

[bailey]

Bailey, I'm curious to know why you think this M1 Rail is destined to fail, when similiar projects in other cities have been wildly successful and spurred billions of dollars in development.

I think I know what you're getting at. Frankly, I would prefer to see the streetcar built with a thicker foundation slab that could support future light rail trains.

As far as transit goes, though, Detroit is starting from Zero. You have to begin somewhere, and this makes about as much sense as anything. Given the current political and fiscal environment, I think this is about the best we can hope for right now.

It's not like construction of a streetcar would preclude further transit development. In fact, by connecting downtown to New Center, it makes the reality of a regional [[commuter) rail system that much more feasible. And maybe it would show Mr. Snyder how absurd his bus rapid transit plan is.

Curious to read your thoughts on the matter.

Short answer? Because it's not part of anything resembling an overall regional solution to the massive lack of transit options here...other than it happens to be located on a major thoroughfare.

Its going to be the second downtown circulator mode of transit built in Detroit and [[if past is prologue) we still will have no way to actually feed it for another generation or two

I don't doubt your point that Trolley/downtown circulatory modes of transit pump up investment along the lines, however, that is only if people are riding the transit to begin with.

Look, very few people that aren't already riding the bus are going ride this because it goes from nowhere to nowhere. Yes that's generalizing...but c'mon, not one car is going to come off the Lodge or I75 or I94 or 696 after this is built. No one not immediately on the line will benefit from it's implementation and frankly, if it's going to be the curb running, in traffic, stop as often as a bus line that the Gilbertonians want... it's going to be indistinguishable from a bus.

The problem that isn't being solved...that could be solved if the Gilbertonians REALLY cared about transit and not a vanity project....would be to get the bus system to function and stop it from being an option of absolute last resort.

DDOT and SMART need to be combined. Detroit needs to give up it's "jewel" and the 'burbs need to understand black people are going to ride the bus north of 8 mile.

Here's what I want my region to be able to do- which it will be not one iota closer to being able to do after spending a few hundred million on this line: I want to be able to leave Metro Airport by bus, LRT, BRT...whatever... and get somewhere close to my east side, inner ring home [[a distance of 25 miles) in something approaching a reasonable amount of time. Not 4 hours, five changes, and three different modes of transportation...if they show up or are even running that day.

Further, I'm not asking for door to door service for everywhere I may conceivably need to go. I'm not demanding NYC or Chicago level of service out of the gate. I'm asking that if I use mass transit in this region, I can get reasonably close to my destination in Detroit and at the very least, the inner ring burbs in a reasonable amount of time and reliably. Again, I don't care if it's by bus, LRT or fucking rickshaw as long as IT WORKS.

My biggest problem with this boondoggle is that instead of fixing the problem of BASIC delivery of BASIC service, we look to solutions to problems we don't have. We don't need another downtown circulator, WE NEED A FUNCTIONING REGIONAL SYSTEM.

After we get a reliable and functioning network of buses, LRT or BRT [[or whatever) THEN we can worry about how to move people around downtown.

At the VERY LEAST, have a regional plan. A real one. Not a piecemeal, hodge podge of half way executed portions of plans all in the name of "doing something" or "not letting the perfect get in the way of the good".

[iheartthed]

Marchionne ponies up for light rail:

Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne today pledged to support the privately-backed Woodward Avenue light-rail project, committing $3 million over five years for Chrysler to sponsor one of the stations on the 3.3-mile route from downtown Detroit to New Center.

Marchionne made the pledge in a private meeting with Quicken Loans chairman and M-1 Rail backer Dan Gilbert, following a morning event marking Chrysler’s deal to lease two floors of space and move 70 people into the former Dime Building downtown, now renamed Chrysler House.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012043...ort-United-Way

[Detroit Stylin]

Some people on this blog had said that a train that runs from Jefferson to 8mile down Woodward was a train to nowhere. I totally disagree. The people mover is a train to nowhere for it didn't go to the New Center Area. Had the People Mover been built on the ground instead of elevated it would had been less expensive to construct and ran futher into New Center or beyond. Whoever were the planners, developers, and investors of this project didn't use common sense on this project. I feel that a small train or trolley LIKE car should be used for the 3 miles. In the middle and not over to the side. Penske and others probably wanted to build the tracks in the middle but was having trouble from the city to do it

The billionaires wanted it on the side, everyone else always wanted it in the center...

[DTFellow]

Here's my take. Bailey, you are right, this trolley is NOT for you. I think that the business backers pushing for this line are doing so because it will eventually help their bottom lines. I disagree that this is a downtown circulater simply because it leaves downtown and rather goes somewhere that someone who is already downtown wouldn't walk. While it is true that this short line will not reduce overall freeway commutes per day from the suburbs, anything short of the massively expensive and politically impossible [[in the current climate) system that you described will not satisfy those goals either.

A short line from downtown to new center will continue to increase interest and convenience for those who LIVE in downtown, midtown, new center, and everywhere in between. This is its purpose, to further incentivize and speed up the revitalization of Detroit's core.

[bailey]

Here's my take. Bailey, you are right, this trolley is NOT for you. I think that the business backers pushing for this line are doing so because it will eventually help their bottom lines. I disagree that this is a downtown circulater simply because it leaves downtown and rather goes somewhere that someone who is already downtown wouldn't walk. While it is true that this short line will not reduce overall freeway commutes per day from the suburbs, anything short of the massively expensive and politically impossible [[in the current climate) system that you described will not satisfy those goals either.

A short line from downtown to new center will continue to increase interest and convenience for those who LIVE in downtown, midtown, new center, and everywhere in between. This is its purpose, to further incentivize and speed up the revitalization of Detroit's core.

Then don't bitch when efforts to fund this line through regional tax dollars are rejected since it's design is clearly NOT to serve the region.

[DTFellow]

Then don't bitch when efforts to fund this line through regional tax dollars are rejected since it's design is clearly NOT to serve the region.

See, here is where we disagree. IMHO every successful effort to revitalize Detroit, whether it be to improve transportation, retail, crime, schools, etc. helps the whole region, not just Detroit. Why you ask? Because the suburbs are Detroit too, despite what our arbitrary lines and the legal form of Home Rule tell the residents. To "outsiders" we are all Detroit. When a new tech or engineering firm considers Warren or Troy, its not because its in Southeast Michigan, its because its Detroit. I believe the saying is something like: "A rising tide lifts all boats."

These arguments against "regional" money being spent to revitalize things in the city are short-sighted, there are numerous secondary and tertiary benefits to the entire region whenever its core becomes more attractive.

The same argument could be used at the state level whenever someone in Traverse City pays their state income taxes and some of those funds are spent on expanding I-94...

[bailey]

See, here is where we disagree. IMHO every successful effort to revitalize Detroit, whether it be to improve transportation, retail, crime, schools, etc. helps the whole region, not just Detroit. Why you ask? Because the suburbs are Detroit too, despite what our arbitrary lines and the legal form of Home Rule tell the residents. To "outsiders" we are all Detroit. When a new tech or engineering firm considers Warren or Troy, its not because its in Southeast Michigan, its because its Detroit. I believe the saying is something like: "A rising tide lifts all boats."

These arguments against "regional" money being spent to revitalize things in the city are short-sighted, there are numerous secondary and tertiary benefits to the entire region whenever its core becomes more attractive.

The same argument could be used at the state level whenever someone in Traverse City pays their state income taxes and some of those funds are spent on expanding I-94...

I don't disagree with the sentiment. Well, I slightly disagree. No matter how logical you may think you're being, the average outstate yokel or exurban denizen will not object to road money being spent state wide as they view roads as part of the general state responsibility and something they may have a use for....however, a trolley for a tiny section of a road in Detroit will not be viewed the same. Money for this project will be viewed as good money after bad or just an outright theft of tax money to pour down the rat hole that is Detroit.

If you're going to sell something as a "regional" asset and ask it gets paid for regionally, it better be easily demonstrated to serve the region. Amorphous concepts about what a better Downtown Detroit could mean to a population that rarely, if ever, goes to the city will not sell this project to them.

Again, I AM NOT DISAGREEING that regional transit is long over due, that the lack of it is a huge problem, and that the best place to start a regional system is arterial roads like Woodward. I am frustrated that this is neither a regional solution nor one that even works to improve the transit in the CoD. I'm frustrated that it's impending failure will be used by exurban and outstate yokels [[who control the state's purse) as an example of why Transit doesn't work here.

[mikeg19]

Which one is longer. The M1 line, or the Boblo Island train line?

[Warrenite84]

If the M-1 Rail and the Bus Rapid Transit plans for Metro Detroit are implemented at the same time, suburnanites' may likely accept the project. Everyone sees transit improvements.

The only other issue is a coherent RTA, [[Regional Transit Authority). Hope the Govenor gets going on this soon...

[professorscott]

Hope the Govenor gets going on this soon...

Governor Snyder can't do anything until the legislation which is being debated in Lansing - SB 909 and tie-bars, HB 5309 etc. - get to his desk. Then he will sign them. Until then, as they say, write your legislator.

[louis]

id hate for this to turn into just another people mover [[by that i mean it stays 3 miles long), if we are lucky enough to have this succeed then they might extend it out at least to 8 mile and maybe the suburbs will take it from there and extend it even more so