M-1 Opening It's Pockets To Get Some Transit

[stasu1213]

Detroit had always been anal when it comes to good basic transportation

[ghettopalmetto]

I agree with you but there is a big difference between approved and a plan [[which is just proposals and recommendations).

Unfortunately, there isn't a body in Southeastern Michigan that has teeth to legally adopt a plan.

[Hermod]

Unfortunately, there isn't a body in Southeastern Michigan that has teeth to legally adopt a plan.

It also helped in Washington that Uncle Sugar was picking up the entire bill.

[ghettopalmetto]

It also helped in Washington that Uncle Sugar was picking up the entire bill.

That's not entirely true, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

Much of the money for Metro construction was obtained by using funds designated for Interstate Highways that the region opted not to build.

[downtownguy]

Much of the money for Metro construction was obtained by using funds designated for Interstate Highways that the region opted not to build.

What a concept!

[bailey]

The trip won't be too short if there are retail, restaurants, and other shops, and businesses that will line Woodward avenue on both sides of the street. Many opposers had thought that 8 miles were too short for light rail. I had disagreed. 8 miles is a long stretch to travel especially if Woodward is bustling with businesses from the river to 8 mile road. Take a trip to New York and drive eight miles north or south on Broadway and tell me how many shops, businesses, and retail would you encounter. Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

As is repeatedly cited on this thread and everytime this topic comes up, the corridor upon which this "rail" is being laid is ALREADY the most heavily traveled line in the DDOT/SMART system. So, my question is...if it's already the MOST HEAVILY TRAVELED by those in the area, where are all the bustling business of which you speak? Why will they suddenly appear when a curb running, stuck in traffic, trolley gets put in?

What additional ridership and residential demand will come from putting rails under the bus?

Someone above threw out the old chestnut of "not letting the perfect get in the way of the good". When I hear that I immediately assume the person saying it is trying to sell me on something that solves none of my problems. If we're not letting the "perfect" get in the way of the "good" why the fuck not just do BRT everywhere? Hell, let's save a few 100 million and do nothing? that is "good" right?

I mean seriously, no matter how much "private" money is thrown in to get this disaster off the ground, its still a parking shuttle that goes from nowhere that anyone other than an infinitesimally small proportion of the region's 4.5 million need to go or where they live....and yet the region will be told they MUST support this because...well....not sure. Because something​ is better than nothing?

Again, I am not anti transit. I'm anti stupid/halfassed
/ warmed over/ we have to do something/People Mover II- Electric Bugaloo that this will be.

Just think about what transit in this region is going to look like when this debacle is finished. You'll have a curbside trolley going from Jefferson to [[maybe) Grand Blvd. Meanwhile, Downtown the PM will still be circling...in one direction...when it's working. And once you hit the end of the trolley line at Grand Blvd, you need to get on a bus. And once you get on that bus, you then need to change again in the burbs to the SMART or the soon to be created THIRD bus system for the BRT joke. Because why? Because there will never be a functioning RTA as long as teabaggers in the sprawl run the show.

Oh yeah, and after all this ridiculousness, you STILL can't get to the airport any easier than now....

[bailey]

SEMCOG has developed a regional transit plan. Adopt it. Implement it.

Semcog's "plan" gets the rail to Birmingham sometime around 2040 and every other artery served by BRT. So, it would seem they ARE implementing it.

[ghettopalmetto]

As is repeatedly cited on this thread and everytime this topic comes up, the corridor upon which this "rail" is being laid is ALREADY the most heavily traveled line in the DDOT/SMART system. So, my question is...if it's already the MOST HEAVILY TRAVELED by those in the area, where are all the bustling business of which you speak? Why will they suddenly appear when a curb running, stuck in traffic, trolley gets put in?

What additional ridership and residential demand will come from putting rails under the bus?

Here's the difference: Rails are permanent. They are seen by investors as a permanent infrastructure investment.

DDOT could stop running the 53 bus tomorrow morning. With rail, you know the service is there, where it goes, and that it's not going away anytime soon.

[bailey]

Here's the difference: Rails are permanent. They are seen by investors as a permanent infrastructure investment.

DDOT could stop running the 53 bus tomorrow morning. With rail, you know the service is there, where it goes, and that it's not going away anytime soon.

Wait, what? This Trolley can be stopped just as easily as any bus, after all Detroit had trolleys before..right? The only thing "permanent" is the rail itself...and that is easily remedied by burying it under the road the next time you resurface.

And since we're speaking of "permanence".... the People Mover is about as permanent as they come.....how's the investor confidence along that route?

[ghettopalmetto]

Wait, what? This Trolley can be stopped just as easily as any bus, after all Detroit had trolleys before..right? The only thing "permanent" is the rail itself...and that is easily remedied by burying it under the road the next time you resurface.

Do you think, that if several hundred million dollars are spent on an infrastructure improvement, that said improvement would be abandoned overnight?

As has been stated ad nauseum, the streetcars were abandoned because of pro-automobile propaganda at the time, not because they didn't work.

And since we're speaking of "permanence".... the People Mover is about as permanent as they come.....how's the investor confidence along that route?

That's true. But the DPM doesn't go anywhere that you can't walk in a shorter timeframe. And it only goes in one direction, so it's utilitiy is more than a bit limited.

[stasu1213]

The people mover could be put to good use if there were major retail downtown so that an employee from the GM Headquarters could catch it to Woodward and Grand Circus Park to buy that outfit or pair of shoes and not walk in the snow, rain, and hop back on it to take back to her office.

[bailey]

The people mover could be put to good use if there were major retail downtown so that an employee from the GM Headquarters could catch it to Woodward and Grand Circus Park to buy that outfit or pair of shoes and not walk in the snow, rain, and hop back on it to take back to her office.

Are you serious!?! THERE IS AN ALMOST ENTIRELY EMPTY SHOPPING MALL IN THE DAMN RENCEN RIGHT NOW. You're telling me that instead of shopping RIGHT DOWNSTAIRS, your average office drone is going to leave the building, get on the PM, travel the entire route [[because it only goes one way) to buy a tie...or outfit...or whatever!?! I mean damn, man, Brooks Brothers went out of business downstairs and the building is full of law firms and General Motors executives.

And since we're speaking of "permanence".... the People Mover is about as permanent as they come.....how's the investor confidence along that route?


That's true. But the DPM doesn't go anywhere that you can't walk in a shorter timeframe. And it only goes in one direction, so it's utilitiy is more than a bit limited

But the M1 Trolley won't go anywhere you can't get to on the bus right now...and WONT BE ANY FASTER as its going to be curb running and in traffic and make many of the same stops. Further, speaking of limited utility, if you are going [[or coming from) anywhere other than directly on the Woodward corridor, why would you not just drive? If you're already using the bus, what's the value add of a Trolley going the same route? Slightly less bum piss odor because the trolleys are new? Who is going to be added to the ridership that isn't already using the most heavily used transit line in the system?

What I mean is; would anyone be complaining about the buses if DDOT wasn't such a total craptastic failure?

Again, if this was just the first step in a planned system of regional transit light rail lines.... I'd be on board. However, it isn't. This [[if it ever gets built) will be stand alone, one-off, dead end track that MIGHT make it to 8 mile sometime in the next 50 years.

Its a pointless vanity project. Just shoot it in the face, wait for the EFM or Bankruptcy Trustee to do their work, and we can come back to this project in 30 years or so and do it right.

[ghettopalmetto]

But the M1 Trolley won't go anywhere you can't get to on the bus right now...and WONT BE ANY FASTER as its going to be curb running and in traffic and make many of the same stops. Further, speaking of limited utility, if you are going [[or coming from) anywhere other than directly on the Woodward corridor, why would you not just drive? If you're already using the bus, what's the value add of a Trolley going the same route? Slightly less bum piss odor because the trolleys are new? Who is going to be added to the ridership that isn't already using the most heavily used transit line in the system?

You had better go tell Portland that they screwed-up by building their Streetcar, and that the billions of dollars of resulting development are purely imaginary.

[bailey]

You had better go tell Portland that they screwed-up by building their Streetcar, and that the billions of dollars of resulting development are purely imaginary.

Was Portland half it's size when they built it? Was Portland running two incompetent bus systems? Could you fit the entire land mass and all the population of Boston in the VACANT parts of Portland? Did pretty much all of Portland's middle and upper class tax base, along with the majority of it's commercial tax base move out of the city? Did they come running back because of a stand alone street car line on part of one thoroughfare?

OR...

did Portland supplement and enhance already decent Public Transportation with a street car that served it's populace in a rational and coherent way resulting in increased investment?

C'mon man...seriously?

[ghettopalmetto]

Was Portland half it's size when they built it? Was Portland running two incompetent bus systems? Could you fit the entire land mass and all the population of Boston in the VACANT parts of Portland? Did pretty much all of Portland's middle and upper class tax base, along with the majority of it's commercial tax base move out of the city? Did they come running back because of a street car on part of one thoroughfare?

OR...

did Portland supplement and enhance already decent Public Transportation with a street car that served it's populace in a rational and coherent way resulting in increased investment?

C'mon man...seriously?

When Portland was strategizing its future development in the 1970s, one thing I can assure you they did NOT do was sit around and make excuses.

Portland was no accident and neither is present-day Detroit. And sitting around complaining, nay, DERIDING those who wish to move Detroit into the 20th century, isn't going to improve one damned thing.

Do you know what the single biggest difference between Detroit and other cities and regions is? It's not the population loss, the climate, the wealth, the tax base, educational system, industry, or any of that other crap. The single difference between Detroit and successful regions is the WILLINGNESS OF PEOPLE TO GET OFF THEIR ASSES.

[bailey]

When Portland was strategizing its future development in the 1970s, one thing I can assure you they did NOT do was sit around and make excuses.

Portland was no accident, and neither is present-day Detroit. And sitting around complaining without willing to do anything isn't going to improve one damned thing.

I guess I could just move.

Look, calling this out for being a fucking stupid plan is not the equivalent of being L Brooks Patterson and standing in the way of transit. It's a stupid plan destined to fail. For which, we are all going to have to pay for. When Portland was laying the foundation for regional transit, we were building the most retarded system to ever be built. We're apparently doomed to repeat history because the Gilbertonians want their trolley. They'll get it [[and get it exactly the way they want it no matter how stupid) because they are willing to chip in the down-payment. Meanwhile, the rest of the region will see nothing and be saddled with a second useless system[[or fourth if you count the two bus systems) . And 30 years from now, when everyone is lamenting the fact that ridership never met projections on the M1... and how it never really took off... .we can again talk about how SeM really needs better transit to attract more people and businesses to live here.

You're right, most US cities managed to sort this out about 30 years ago. However, simply cutting and pasting portions of 30 year old plans to solve Detroit and SeM's problems of today isn't going to work.

[detroitmale]

Wonderful. I'm still hoping they find funding to continue the line beyond 8 mile. It would be nice to see it go all the way up to pontiac.

[ghettopalmetto]

Bailey, I'm curious to know why you think this M1 Rail is destined to fail, when similiar projects in other cities have been wildly successful and spurred billions of dollars in development.

I think I know what you're getting at. Frankly, I would prefer to see the streetcar built with a thicker foundation slab that could support future light rail trains.

As far as transit goes, though, Detroit is starting from Zero. You have to begin somewhere, and this makes about as much sense as anything. Given the current political and fiscal environment, I think this is about the best we can hope for right now.

It's not like construction of a streetcar would preclude further transit development. In fact, by connecting downtown to New Center, it makes the reality of a regional [[commuter) rail system that much more feasible. And maybe it would show Mr. Snyder how absurd his bus rapid transit plan is.

Curious to read your thoughts on the matter.

[Detroitnerd]

I notice that the graphic they passed on to the Freep was a curb-running car.

I remember when they balked at the center-running design that had public input that certain defenders of M1 said it wasn't because the new design was center-running, it was just because of some other issues. They weren't taking their marbles and going home because they didn't get what they wanted.

And now it looks like they're getting what they wanted.

Frankly, I understand Bailey's frustration. Is this fucking Chinatown? Do our mandarins of business get whateverthefuck they want?

[antongast]

Frankly, I understand Bailey's frustration. Is this fucking Chinatown? Do our mandarins of business get whateverthefuck they want?

Of course! If we don't kiss the asses of all the businessmen all the time, they will be sad. We can't make the businessmen sad! They're important! They're not used to being sad! C'mon, Detroitnerd, be realistic here.

[Gistok]

I don't know DN... I agree that the center lane route is more practical for this type of arrangement.... but maybe the powers that be want to keep the Thanksgiving Day parade ON Woodward... no can do with a median transit line.

From a purely transit user perspective... it doesn't matter if the line is down the middle or on the sides. But for folks who want to park along the sides next to the transit lines... it becomes a little trickier.

[Detroitnerd]

Of course! If we don't kiss the asses of all the businessmen all the time, they will be sad. We can't make the businessmen sad! They're important! They're not used to being sad! C'mon, Detroitnerd, be realistic here.

Hahaha. Look at me, getting the ol' Detroitnerd treatment.

Good job, antongast. Usually, we end that sort of talk with a smiley.

[antongast]

From a purely transit user perspective... it doesn't matter if the line is down the middle or on the sides.

Are you a purely transit user?

[Gistok]

Are you a purely transit user?

No I drive a car... like about 99% of the folks in metro Detroit... which besides the headache of parking along Woodward [[which in and of itself is a headache with all the parking restrictions)... I like to make left turns...

[Detroitnerd]

I don't know DN... I agree that the center lane route is more practical for this type of arrangement.... but maybe the powers that be want to keep the Thanksgiving Day parade ON Woodward... no can do with a median transit line.

From a purely transit user perspective... it doesn't matter if the line is down the middle or on the sides. But for folks who want to park along the sides next to the transit lines... it becomes a little trickier.

How did they do the parade for 32 years with the islands on Woodward?

Actually, that reason, the parade, makes me even angrier. Who comes up with these rationales?

I hope Dan Gilbert's limousine gets crushed and destroyed, and the streetcar mows down people crowding in front of Ilitch's Fox Theatre. Maybe then they'll learn ...