M-1 Opening It's Pockets To Get Some Transit

**dmike76** · April-23-12, 01:07 PM

http://www.freep.com/article/2012042...text|FRONTPAGE

**jpbollma** · April-23-12, 01:20 PM

I would love to see this happen.

**DTFellow** · April-23-12, 01:41 PM

Clearly, these business leaders are putting their money where their mouth is on this project. I think that if they are willing to put up the operating funds, and most of the construction funds, they must feel that this is such an important investment in Detroit's future as to require such a risk. Building a short railway will connect Downtown w/ Midtown and New Center, effectively making those places walking distance and loosening the grip of the parking operators on space. When you can park off Temple St. and ride the train downtown in minutes, the effective number of parking spots for "downtown" has gone through the roof.

**dmike76** · April-23-12, 01:46 PM

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-23-12, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

Be careful, perfection is the enemy of the good.

I think everyone wants rail. But that might be beyond our means right now. This seems like a great first step -- especially if done in a way where it could be expanded. [[There's nothing more frustrating that having to switch trains.)

**canuck** · April-23-12, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Be careful, perfection is the enemy of the good.

I think everyone wants rail. But that might be beyond our means right now. This seems like a great first step -- especially if done in a way where it could be expanded. [[There's nothing more frustrating that having to switch trains.)

I think it's more a question of whether Detroit can afford not to.

If you look at the folks behind this push for modern reliable transit, they all stand to benefit from this coherent investment. The city is vital to them, it is normal that people who own a big piece of the property pie in downtown and New Center would want to contribute by stabilizing a city that badly needs this.

Waiting any longer is foolish and counterproductive, and the funny thing is that business leaders will show politicians the way to a better city and hopefully a better metropolitan area.

**casscorridor** · April-23-12, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

Woodward rail [[M1 or DTOGS) was never meant for the purpose of suburbanite parking and shuttling. It is meant to provide frequent, reliable service to the most heavily used transit corridor in the city. Although the streetcar plan doesn't cover all of Woodward, it does cover the most dense, vibrant and walkable sections. It will be a huge boon on the surrounding neighborhoods. Regional transit will have a different form, which is currently proposed as Bus Rapid Transit. But BRT has serious drawbacks because it so slow unless it has its own bus way [[like in LA). Light-rail using existing rail right-of-ways seems more effective in delivering service to the suburbs into the city.

**mikeg19** · April-23-12, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Mike. It'd be nice to see the rail lines "start" with them running up Michigan, Woodward, and Gratiot out to 8 mile at the least. But I think at this point, this project just needs to get its footing and get the initial line built from downtown to New Center. After that, it's anyone's guess how far or what other lines could potentially spur off of it. I think the biggest thing out of all of this is the commitment of M1 to cover operating costs for a decade. That is truly saying something. At the current rate Detroit is [[potentially) heading, this should be a very different place in ten years, and I believe in a positive way.

**Jason** · April-23-12, 02:34 PM

I think it's great that they're committing that money. I do hope that whatever would be built would be good though.

Also, the Free press needs to dedicate someone [[or someone new) to their maps. Their maps have roads that don't exist, and it seems like every map of theirs I see, something is mislabeled [[here the orange rectangle in the inset map is in the wrong spot).

**dmike76** · April-23-12, 03:31 PM

I think it will be a boon to the surrounding neighborhoods and I'm all for that, especially since I plan on moving to the D in a couple of years. I'll still take this plan even though it's not ideal for what I'd like transit to be in SE Michigan.

**warsaw7** · April-23-12, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

http://www.freep.com/article/2012042...text|FRONTPAGE

Yawn! Wake me when they start to bring in the backhoes......

**BShea** · April-23-12, 07:57 PM

The M1 group doesn't quite have all its capital funding in place, and that operating subsidy isn't entirely covered yet, either ... just 80 percent of it. There's still a bit of work to be done on assembling financing, but M1 Prez Matt Cullen told me they're very confident of having it all eventually.

He also seemed VERY confident that we'll see a naming rights deal for the entire line [[like Cleveland's BRT line) that will pick up some of the funding. He didn't want to talk much about it, but my sense is a naming rights deal is in the works and isn't just a hypothetical ... which makes sense when you consider those involved. The WEBward Line? The Hot-&-Ready Line? The Penske Line? The Quicken Line? The Compuware Express?

My story on the M1 report: Link

**detmsp** · April-23-12, 08:41 PM

I am a bit concerned that the line could be too short to get much ridership. If it does have low ridership, those numbers will be used by anti-transit folks against any plans to expand it to a length where it actually becomes useful. I'm not convinced this will happen, but I am nervous since it's so short and also doesn't have much of a bus system feeding into it.

Also, I hope that M1 doesn't do what they originally had been planning to do by using streetcar tracks that won't support light rail cars. Having to tear this all out in 10 years to replace it with light rail would be a waste.

**stasu1213** · April-24-12, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by detmsp

I am a bit concerned that the line could be too short to get much ridership. If it does have low ridership, those numbers will be used by anti-transit folks against any plans to expand it to a length where it actually becomes useful. I'm not convinced this will happen, but I am nervous since it's so short and also doesn't have much of a bus system feeding into it.

Also, I hope that M1 doesn't do what they originally had been planning to do by using streetcar tracks that won't support light rail cars. Having to tear this all out in 10 years to replace it with light rail would be a waste.

The trip won't be too short if there are retail, restaurants, and other shops, and businesses that will line Woodward avenue on both sides of the street. Many opposers had thought that 8 miles were too short for light rail. I had disagreed. 8 miles is a long stretch to travel especially if Woodward is bustling with businesses from the river to 8 mile road. Take a trip to New York and drive eight miles north or south on Broadway and tell me how many shops, businesses, and retail would you encounter. Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

**casscorridor** · April-24-12, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

The trip won't be too short if there are retail, restaurants, and other shops, and businesses that will line Woodward avenue on both sides of the street. Many opposers had thought that 8 miles were too short for light rail. I had disagreed. 8 miles is a long stretch to travel especially if Woodward is bustling with businesses from the river to 8 mile road. Take a trip to New York and drive eight miles north or south on Broadway and tell me how many shops, businesses, and retail would you encounter. Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

Good point. If the three mile stretch is dense with lots of uses and destinations, it will be a success. I'd like to see a streetcar system for the very center of the city, with a light-rail or commuter rail system going out into the suburbs. This is what other cities are doing such as Seattle, Portland and DC.

**stasu1213** · April-24-12, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Good point. If the three mile stretch is dense with lots of uses and destinations, it will be a success. I'd like to see a streetcar system for the very center of the city, with a light-rail or commuter rail system going out into the suburbs. This is what other cities are doing such as Seattle, Portland and DC.

I would even be satified with light rail running up and down Woodward to 8 mile road, rapid busses on Grand River, Gratiot, Michigan, and Jefferson, and regular busses on street such as Joy Road, Mack, the mile roads. We should have a rapid express bus that runs from downtown nonstop to the airport. A rapid bus or rail could travel crosstown on Warren Avenue

**Junkin4Life** · April-25-12, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I would even be satified with light rail running up and down Woodward to 8 mile road, rapid busses on Grand River, Gratiot, Michigan, and Jefferson, and regular busses on street such as Joy Road, Mack, the mile roads. We should have a rapid express bus that runs from downtown nonstop to the airport. A rapid bus or rail could travel crosstown on Warren Avenue

Don't forget the rapid bus lines on Telegraph, I-94, I-96, M-10, & I-75

**bailey** · April-26-12, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

The trip won't be too short if there are retail, restaurants, and other shops, and businesses that will line Woodward avenue on both sides of the street. Many opposers had thought that 8 miles were too short for light rail. I had disagreed. 8 miles is a long stretch to travel especially if Woodward is bustling with businesses from the river to 8 mile road. Take a trip to New York and drive eight miles north or south on Broadway and tell me how many shops, businesses, and retail would you encounter. Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

As is repeatedly cited on this thread and everytime this topic comes up, the corridor upon which this "rail" is being laid is ALREADY the most heavily traveled line in the DDOT/SMART system. So, my question is...if it's already the MOST HEAVILY TRAVELED by those in the area, where are all the bustling business of which you speak? Why will they suddenly appear when a curb running, stuck in traffic, trolley gets put in?

What additional ridership and residential demand will come from putting rails under the bus?

Someone above threw out the old chestnut of "not letting the perfect get in the way of the good". When I hear that I immediately assume the person saying it is trying to sell me on something that solves none of my problems. If we're not letting the "perfect" get in the way of the "good" why the fuck not just do BRT everywhere? Hell, let's save a few 100 million and do nothing? that is "good" right?

I mean seriously, no matter how much "private" money is thrown in to get this disaster off the ground, its still a parking shuttle that goes from nowhere that anyone other than an infinitesimally small proportion of the region's 4.5 million need to go or where they live....and yet the region will be told they MUST support this because...well....not sure. Because something is better than nothing?

Again, I am not anti transit. I'm anti stupid/halfassed
/ warmed over/ we have to do something/People Mover II- Electric Bugaloo that this will be.

Just think about what transit in this region is going to look like when this debacle is finished. You'll have a curbside trolley going from Jefferson to [[maybe) Grand Blvd. Meanwhile, Downtown the PM will still be circling...in one direction...when it's working. And once you hit the end of the trolley line at Grand Blvd, you need to get on a bus. And once you get on that bus, you then need to change again in the burbs to the SMART or the soon to be created THIRD bus system for the BRT joke. Because why? Because there will never be a functioning RTA as long as teabaggers in the sprawl run the show.

Oh yeah, and after all this ridiculousness, you STILL can't get to the airport any easier than now....

**ghettopalmetto** · April-26-12, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

As is repeatedly cited on this thread and everytime this topic comes up, the corridor upon which this "rail" is being laid is ALREADY the most heavily traveled line in the DDOT/SMART system. So, my question is...if it's already the MOST HEAVILY TRAVELED by those in the area, where are all the bustling business of which you speak? Why will they suddenly appear when a curb running, stuck in traffic, trolley gets put in?

What additional ridership and residential demand will come from putting rails under the bus?

Here's the difference: Rails are permanent. They are seen by investors as a permanent infrastructure investment.

DDOT could stop running the 53 bus tomorrow morning. With rail, you know the service is there, where it goes, and that it's not going away anytime soon.

**bailey** · April-26-12, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Here's the difference: Rails are permanent. They are seen by investors as a permanent infrastructure investment.

DDOT could stop running the 53 bus tomorrow morning. With rail, you know the service is there, where it goes, and that it's not going away anytime soon.

Wait, what? This Trolley can be stopped just as easily as any bus, after all Detroit had trolleys before..right? The only thing "permanent" is the rail itself...and that is easily remedied by burying it under the road the next time you resurface.

And since we're speaking of "permanence".... the People Mover is about as permanent as they come.....how's the investor confidence along that route?

**stasu1213** · April-28-12, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

As is repeatedly cited on this thread and everytime this topic comes up, the corridor upon which this "rail" is being laid is ALREADY the most heavily traveled line in the DDOT/SMART system. So, my question is...if it's already the MOST HEAVILY TRAVELED by those in the area, where are all the bustling business of which you speak? Why will they suddenly appear when a curb running, stuck in traffic, trolley gets put in?

What additional ridership and residential demand will come from putting rails under the bus?

Someone above threw out the old chestnut of "not letting the perfect get in the way of the good". When I hear that I immediately assume the person saying it is trying to sell me on something that solves none of my problems. If we're not letting the "perfect" get in the way of the "good" why the fuck not just do BRT everywhere? Hell, let's save a few 100 million and do nothing? that is "good" right?

I mean seriously, no matter how much "private" money is thrown in to get this disaster off the ground, its still a parking shuttle that goes from nowhere that anyone other than an infinitesimally small proportion of the region's 4.5 million need to go or where they live....and yet the region will be told they MUST support this because...well....not sure. Because something is better than nothing?

Again, I am not anti transit. I'm anti stupid/halfassed
/ warmed over/ we have to do something/People Mover II- Electric Bugaloo that this will be.

Just think about what transit in this region is going to look like when this debacle is finished. You'll have a curbside trolley going from Jefferson to [[maybe) Grand Blvd. Meanwhile, Downtown the PM will still be circling...in one direction...when it's working. And once you hit the end of the trolley line at Grand Blvd, you need to get on a bus. And once you get on that bus, you then need to change again in the burbs to the SMART or the soon to be created THIRD bus system for the BRT joke. Because why? Because there will never be a functioning RTA as long as teabaggers in the sprawl run the show.

Oh yeah, and after all this ridiculousness, you STILL can't get to the airport any easier than now....

Some people on this blog had said that a train that runs from Jefferson to 8mile down Woodward was a train to nowhere. I totally disagree. The people mover is a train to nowhere for it didn't go to the New Center Area. Had the People Mover been built on the ground instead of elevated it would had been less expensive to construct and ran futher into New Center or beyond. Whoever were the planners, developers, and investors of this project didn't use common sense on this project. I feel that a small train or trolley LIKE car should be used for the 3 miles. In the middle and not over to the side. Penske and others probably wanted to build the tracks in the middle but was having trouble from the city to do it

**Detroit Stylin** · April-30-12, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Some people on this blog had said that a train that runs from Jefferson to 8mile down Woodward was a train to nowhere. I totally disagree. The people mover is a train to nowhere for it didn't go to the New Center Area. Had the People Mover been built on the ground instead of elevated it would had been less expensive to construct and ran futher into New Center or beyond. Whoever were the planners, developers, and investors of this project didn't use common sense on this project. I feel that a small train or trolley LIKE car should be used for the 3 miles. In the middle and not over to the side. Penske and others probably wanted to build the tracks in the middle but was having trouble from the city to do it

The billionaires wanted it on the side, everyone else always wanted it in the center...

**Jason** · April-24-12, 03:16 PM

According to Mr. Shea's report the round trip is supposed to be 36 to 40 minutes, meaning to get from New Center to downtown would take 18-20 minutes. Which I think is way way way way too long.

According to their schedule, DDOT's 53 Woodward bus takes about 24 minutes for the same trip [[New Center to Downtown).

According to Google Transit, there's a SMART route which would take 17 minutes and another that would take 23 minutes. According to it it would take about 10 minutes to drive.

It seems pretty clear that that isn't fast enough and that it should be in a dedicated lane to speed it up.

**nain rouge** · April-25-12, 06:25 PM

Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

3 miles is such a waste, even if Woodward's density continues to improve. The average person walks at a speed of 3.1 mph, and bikes at speed of 12.5 mph. 3 miles is not that big of a distance. Maybe high-speed rail would be nice if you need to get all the way from Grand Blvd to the financial district in the winter or something, but in that case couldn't you just take the bus? I'm sure we could significantly improve the bus service on that stretch of Woodward for way less than $5 million a year. It doesn't take a bus that long to go 3 miles, you know, especially if we did what Cleveland did and made some changes to how traffic is conducted so we could have "high-speed buses." Millions to shave off 5 minutes sounds a like a waste.

Unless this high-speed rail line reaches at least close to 8 mile, it's a waste. Preferably, it would go all the way to Pontiac. As it is, it looks like a sad attempt to check off another modern urban renewal trend from the list in Midtown/Downtown.

I know, I know - some people will say that this is the start to something bigger. But if you don't do it all at once, history shows that you usually won't get the rest, and you'll be stuck with another boondoggle.

**stasu1213** · April-25-12, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

3 miles is such a waste, even if Woodward's density continues to improve. The average person walks at a speed of 3.1 mph, and bikes at speed of 12.5 mph. 3 miles is not that big of a distance. Maybe high-speed rail would be nice if you need to get all the way from Grand Blvd to the financial district in the winter or something, but in that case couldn't you just take the bus? I'm sure we could significantly improve the bus service on that stretch of Woodward for way less than $5 million a year. It doesn't take a bus that long to go 3 miles, you know, especially if we did what Cleveland did and made some changes to how traffic is conducted so we could have "high-speed buses." Millions to shave off 5 minutes sounds a like a waste.

Unless this high-speed rail line reaches at least close to 8 mile, it's a waste. Preferably, it would go all the way to Pontiac. As it is, it looks like a sad attempt to check off another modern urban renewal trend from the list in Midtown/Downtown.

I know, I know - some people will say that this is the start to something bigger. But if you don't do it all at once, history shows that you usually won't get the rest, and you'll be stuck with another boondoggle.

This is why I had said that a trolley like system would do. I don't know why the People Mover didn't go to the New Center Area. The average person in Detroit doesn't walk three miles on a daily basis. Three miles may not seem to be much for me and you. To a person carrying bags, a senior citizen, a child, or a person walking on a snowy cold day, hot day, or rainy day, three miles is a long distance. I agree with you that the distance appear to be too short for any light rail. Smaller electric busses that are designated to the New Center Area from downtown would be better. Detroit once had busses that had made short trips