Lafayette Building next on DEGC hit list?

[ghettopalmetto]

Boy, I'm having trouble keeping up with all your edits.... every time I go to answer you've added new insults and pithy comments. Funny how some get banned for stuff like that and others don't...strange. In case you're not done editing and adding more insulting comments ..I'm just going to answer this draft....

I don't feel sorry for anything. But, I must admit, listening to you spout off this ridiculous "every building must be saved...because they did something kinda like that in New York, Chicago or Miami" mantra is pretty irritating. Especially since you apparently [[judging from the references you just made to detroit as "there" and to "your history") don't even live in the region. Thus you are simply talking out of your ass.

No where did I say demolition is the first option. Nowhere did I say demolition the only option. Anyone with reading comprehension skills could have gotten that. I'm simply rejecting the "every building must be saved" argument . Some can be saved…other can’t….or shouldn’t. I reject the idea that a city with a 300,000,000 million dollar hole in it's budget needs to maintain empty and derelict buildings for a generation in hopes that one day there will be a need for them.

First of all. Blow me. I understand plenty about my history and the region's economics. It isn’t the "billionaires to continue to rape and pillage the place" Detroit's elected representatives and their families have already seen to that. There is nothing left to steal. Why don't you "GET.SOME.BALLS" and move here since you have all the answers?

Second, I am one of the young and educated that hasn’t yet left… but with uninformed like you around pretending that everything is just fine and lecturing about how scant resources should be used to keep abandoned buildings up…but not renovated, just up - because maybe in the next 30 years someone might put a cheesecake factory on the first floor…. Well, Chicago does sound nicer and nicer these days.

Optimism? Live here for a while and see how optimistic you are. This region's rejection of education, rejection of clean governance, rejection of innovation, rejection of change, and it's entitlement mentality are it;s greatest obstacles....but of course some really nice renderings of a loft conversion slapped on an empty building will change all that.

How about you come up with a positive idea for once instead of throwing in the towel and assuming that demolition of the Lafayette is inevitable? This is about pride in your city's future, and whether that future consists of the redevelopment of beautiful historic structures, or numerous parcels of downtown land that resemble the rural South.

Of course, every situation and every building project is unique. But to casually dismiss parallels of similar situations in other places because of geography, sunshine, the day of the week, New Coke, or the current NASDAQ average is being willfully ignorant. If you opened your eyes a bit, and tried to understand WHY and HOW other cities have been able to turn around and leave Detroit in the dust, you might just understand what it's going to take to fix Detroit. I think you'd be surprised to find that things weren't exactly a cakewalk anywhere else. At some point, though, someone drew a line in the sand and said, "No more. We're going to do this *better*." The only real difference between Detroit and anywhere else is that Detroit hasn't made that stand yet, and continues to finance its own destruction.

Go get yourself some Rage Against the Machine CDs and get some positive energy flowing.

[Detroitnerd]

I think we're looking for a definitive, causative statement. It would go a long way toward backing up the "demolish it and they will come" strategy embraced by the city.

[HazenPingree]

thanks for bringing some fresh smart air in here detroitnerd. it was getting a little stale and negative in this thread.

[kraig]

kraig, do you not like me or something?

are you working for the DEGC?

I wouldn't consider supporting you for Charter Commissioner if I disliked you. But, with our City and region having the challenges that they do, there's no time for that City/Suburban rift. Hell, there shouldn't be any time for that when conditions in the area are better.

I don't work for the DEGC. But I do know a lot of what's been going on behind the scenes with them the same way that I knew what was going on behind the scenes with the OTSC, as you have seen.

That's why I suggested to Fred that the preservationists should come up with a list of buildings. I can tell you how to navigate your way through to them. Unfortunately, he's decided to go the bitch and moan route. I hope you do better.

p.s. Start campaigning on the Northeast side, the residents there are sick of being ignored.

Responding to your edit. If you feel someone is out to destroy your city or help your city, where they're from shouldn't matter. As MLK jr. put it, judge them on the "content of their character". Go by their actions and deeds, not their address.

[HazenPingree]

I wouldn't consider supporting you for Charter Commissioner if I disliked you. But, with our City and region having the challenges that they do, there's no time for that City/Suburban rift. Hell, there shouldn't be any time for that when conditions in the area are better.

I don't work for the DEGC. But I do know a lot of what's been going on behind the scenes with them the same way that I knew what was going on behind the scenes with the OTSC, as you have seen.

That's why I suggested to Fred that the preservationists should come up with a list of buildings. I can tell you how to navigate your way through to them. Unfortunately, he's decided to go the bitch and moan route. I hope you do better.

p.s. Start campaigning on the Northeast side, the residents there are sick of being ignored.

Thanks for the tip. Who is Fred? Do I know this fella?

I just want to clear up the fact that I am by no means anti-suburban. I am a regionalist. I just don't like outsiders coming in and taking very decisive destructive action in the city.

p.s. would you be willing to divulge who you work for, I'm just very curious... Though we seem to interpret things differently, you obviously know a lot of information...

[kraig]

Thanks for the tip. Who is Fred? Do I know this fella?

I just want to clear up the fact that I am by no means anti-suburban. I am a regionalist. I just don't like outsiders coming in and taking very decisive destructive action in the city.

p.s. would you be willing to divulge who you work for, I'm just very curious... Though we seem to interpret things differently, you obviously know a lot of information...

Fred is Fnemecek.

I'm an independent contractor/businessman with a wide range of clients. I'm in the enviable position of being privy to information from both sides of an issue quite often.

[Fnemecek]

That's why I suggested to Fred that the preservationists should come up with a list of buildings. I can tell you how to navigate your way through to them. Unfortunately, he's decided to go the bitch and moan route. I hope you do better.

First, my name is Frank; not Fred. I noticed farther down that this was a reference to me.

Second, you mentioned the idea of putting together a list of buildings that aren't under the control of the DEGC. The DEGC already has control over every historic building in and around downtown Detroit - or at least the ones that would need any type of preservation. [[There are a couple of churches and such that the DEGC doesn't have any influence over, but they seem to do be doing fine on their own.)

Hence, a list is a moot issue.

[heedus]

A lot of us on here certainly are not pro-demolition. I just think that we more realistically consider and value the general public's opinion when it comes to buildings like the Lafayette Building and how that translates into present and future economic activity. While I certainly appreciate the architecture and beauty of these rotten hunks of buildings, I know a substantial majority of my friends and family, many of whom only come into Detroit for sporting events and other large festivities, think about crime, poverty, and lack of economic activity and have resentment for "what Detroit used to be" when they see these buildings. They would rather spend their money at crappy downriver and west-side restaurants and shops then come into Detroit and walk around amongst these "scary" buildings. And I would wager that a majority of Detroit residents likely feel the same way.

Yes, there have been some extremely wonderful redevelopment successes in the past five years, but with the existing stock of vacant buildings in Detroit and the current economic climate, how can we possibly expect to save them all? I mean, there's just so many of them in an around downtown: Lafayette Building, Book Tower, Broderick Tower, David Whitney building, GAR building, Metropolitan Building, National Theatre, MCR, Free Press Building, old MGM, Michigan Theatre, United Artists, Wurlitzer Building, Film Exchange Building, old State of Michigan buildings by the Lodge, countless small buildings along Woodward, etc., etc. And that doesn't even include the buildings that are hanging on by a thread [[e.g., 1001 Woodward).

I know that development plans are in the works for some of these buildings, and I am praying that they don't fall through. But can we realistically afford to properly preserve these buildings as many of you argue? Also, does preservation of these hulking giants sit better in the stomachs of the general public than an empty parking lot? From an architectural and historical stanpoint, is the Lafayette Building even worth saving?

[bailey]

Look GP, I'm not arguing that Demo is the first or best choice, I'm just saying that we have to be realistic and accept that sometimes it's the inevitable choice. Let's walk it through.... after a decade of decline the Lafayette was abandoned. During the time the Lafayette was going under and being shuttered, the rest of the country and much of the region was experiencing historic growth. During that time Oakland county cracked the top 5 in wealthiest counties in the country. In the 13 yrs since it;s shuttering, it's had several proposed re-habs, all failed. Detroit and Michigan have been in a one state recession for what? 7 years...recently joined by the rest of the country in the worst economic collapse in 75 years. Detroit and Michigan's only major economic driver [[if it survives at all) will be half it's size....hopefully.

I hate to be repetitive, but what in the short or long term outlook for Detroit and SEM leads one to believe that the layfayette would ever be viable re-hab project at any time in the next 20 years? How long should increasingly scant tax dollars be burned keeping it up? And, that isn't even taking into account the track record Detroit has in maintaining properties.

But to casually dismiss parallels of similar situations in other places because of geography, sunshine, the day of the week, New Coke, or the current NASDAQ average is being willfully ignorant.

But casually dismissing the reasons Detroit has more abandoned buildings in its CBD than any other major city is NOT being willfully blind? You point to Tribeca or Miami's south beach deco district as relevant comparisons, but ignore that these areas are not the CBD of NYC or Miami. Heedus notes the landmark properties empty in the CBD with some of those being empty 30 years or more. If we are going to be comparing to NYC, how many in MidTown Manhattan [[even in the worst years) were vacant that long? There is an awful lot of supply with no demand. The discussion is over which to cull from the herd not whether to euthanize the entire lot of them.

If you opened your eyes a bit, and tried to understand WHY and HOW other cities have been able to turn around and leave Detroit in the dust, you might just understand what it's going to take to fix Detroit.

50 years of sprawl, regional fiefdoms, massive divestment, corruption and divisive racial politics landed Detroit and the region where it is. Nothing short of a take over by the state will save Detroit. But that will never happen, so it's back to triage. Save what makes sense.

I think we're looking for a definitive, causative statement. It would go a long way toward backing up the "demolish it and they will come" strategy embraced by the city.

"Demolish it an they will come" is not my strategy. Maybe it's the DEGC's, but not mine. However, "demolish nothing and they will come" isn't really working out either is it?

[Detroitnerd]

Well, if I have a choice:

"Demolish it and they will come" strategy: Expensive, unproven, hasty, destructive, often produces vacant lots and parking lots.

"Don't demolish it and they will come" strategy: Inexpensive, proven, long-term, capitalizes on built environment, can produce rehabbed, historic buildings.

I'll take the less expensive option with more promise for the future. Also, notice how the argument outlined above is brief, elegant and sensible.

OK, now. Pile on.

[Fnemecek]

I hate to be repetitive, but what in the short or long term outlook for Detroit and SEM leads one to believe that the Lafayette would ever be viable re-hab project at any time in the next 20 years? How long should increasingly scant tax dollars be burned keeping it up?

First, there are options for bringing the Lafayette back on-line. Unfortunately, all of them are conditional upon a full-scale inspection of the building to determine exactly how much it's going to cost. [[Demolition might be the best option, but we won't know until an inspection is done.)

Second, no tax dollars are being spent to keep the Lafayette standing at this point. However, we will have to spend a few million of them to bring it down.

[kraig]

First, there are options for bringing the Lafayette back on-line. Unfortunately, all of them are conditional upon a full-scale inspection of the building to determine exactly how much it's going to cost. [[Demolition might be the best option, but we won't know until an inspection is done.)

Second, no tax dollars are being spent to keep the Lafayette standing at this point. However, we will have to spend a few million of them to bring it down.

You know you can't get the Lafayette. Is there another vacant building in the City of Detroit that you want? The building doesn't have to be downtown.

What kind of plan would you want for your targeted building?

[Novine]

" However, "demolish nothing and they will come" isn't really working out either is it?"

Where has that been tried? Not in Detroit, not if you've been paying attention for the past 5 years. Do we need to run through the list of Demolition George Jackson's greatest hits again to remind everyone of how successful that strategy has been?

[ghettopalmetto]

" However, "demolish nothing and they will come" isn't really working out either is it?"

It's not merely "demolish nothing"--there has to be a concerted effort to get these buildings rehabilitated. It will be slow at first, but as a critical population density is reached, more and more potential owners will realize how much money there is to make in downtown Detroit. Unfortunately, with financial markets being the way they are right now, this is not the time for such work to happen, nor is it the time to make hasty decisions. The pro-demolition argument is a straw man, because renovation is nearly financially impossible AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME.

When DEGC threatened to demolish the Book-Cadillac and John Ferchill stepped to the plate, those parties worked their asses off in order to make that project happen. By having that empty building there, you now have a hotel, condos, and a *nice* restaurant on the corner of Michigan and Washington. If that building had been demolished in 1983, such a project could have never happened.

[Stosh]

I think that the Lafayette building [[and others) can be saved, but not by pissing and moaning about it's fate on this message board.

I mentioned previously about the funds from the Old Tiger Statium Conservancy. There had been questions regarding the use of donations to the OTSC, and what they would be used for in case of a failed campaign. Since the stadium is being torn down now, it seems as if there's no longer a purpose for the conservancy.

IF there are any funds left in the OTSC, I feel that it's important to have these funds go to a proper non-profit organization that is also a 501[[c)3 like OTSC that will carryout similar aims, such as preservation work in the City.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think that the Lafayette building [[and others) can be saved, but not by pissing and moaning about it's fate on this message board.

I mentioned previously about the funds from the Old Tiger Statium Conservancy. There had been questions regarding the use of donations to the OTSC, and what they would be used for in case of a failed campaign. Since the stadium is being torn down now, it seems as if there's no longer a purpose for the conservancy.

IF there are any funds left in the OTSC, I feel that it's important to have these funds go to a proper non-profit organization that is also a 501[[c)3 like OTSC that will carryout similar aims, such as preservation work in the City.

That's not a bad idea at all. I'm not sure how that works legally, but I'm sure the money would help.

Some kind of a bridge needs to be built with DEGC. It's obvious that any preservation effort is going to have to go through them, given the sheer number of properties they own downtown. Somehow, George Jackson and company need to be convinced that retaining these structures, and making concerted efforts like they did with the Book-Cadillac, will reap dividends in the long run.

Threatening demolition "or else" is no way to conduct economic development in a city that badly needs it.

[kraig]

I think that the Lafayette building [[and others) can be saved, but not by pissing and moaning about it's fate on this message board.

I mentioned previously about the funds from the Old Tiger Statium Conservancy. There had been questions regarding the use of donations to the OTSC, and what they would be used for in case of a failed campaign. Since the stadium is being torn down now, it seems as if there's no longer a purpose for the conservancy.

IF there are any funds left in the OTSC, I feel that it's important to have these funds go to a proper non-profit organization that is also a 501[[c)3 like OTSC that will carryout similar aims, such as preservation work in the City.

Isn't that money still earmarked for the Tiger Stadium site? It may not be available for any other use.

[Stosh]

Isn't that money still earmarked for the Tiger Stadium site? It may not be available for any other use.

In the state of Michigan, non-profits can, upon disbanding, designate their funds to another 501[[c)3 organization that has similar goals,the similarity being that preservation is the goal of the organization. I can think of a few right off the top of my head, but I'd rather not mention one group over another.

Of course, all this is dependent on whether there is any funding left. I'd like to see that earmark from Levin be reprogrammed toward a demonstration site for adaptave reuse. Make one of those buildings into mid income lofts, or something other than office space.

[kraig]

In the state of Michigan, non-profits can, upon disbanding, designate their funds to another 501[[c)3 organization that has similar goals,the similarity being that preservation is the goal of the organization. I can think of a few right off the top of my head, but I'd rather not mention one group over another.

Of course, all this is dependent on whether there is any funding left. I'd like to see that earmark from Levin be reprogrammed toward a demonstration site for adaptave reuse. Make one of those buildings into mid income lofts, or something other than office space.

Associated Press - June 10, 2009 3:04 PM ET
DETROIT [[AP) - A $3.8 million federal earmark intended to help save Tiger Stadium may end up being spent even if nothing is left of the stadium.
U.S. Sen. Carl Levin said Tuesday his earmark was designated for "preservation and redevelopment of a public park and related business activities" in Detroit's Corktown neighborhood.
The Michigan Democrat says even if the building is gone, the money still would be available for a new redevelopment plan by the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy involving the ballfield.
Board member Gary Gillette says the group hasn't decided its plans.
Levin's office didn't know how long the money would be available or what happens if it isn't spent.
Crews began leveling the stadium Monday. The ballpark opened in 1912, and the Tigers departed in 1999.



It appears that it has to be used for a public park in the Corktown area. Which means the OTSC is going to have to deal with the City of Detroit and/or DEGC. Being in the CBD, the Lafayette Building is probably out of the question.

[bailey]

It will be slow at first, but as a critical population density is reached, more and more potential owners will realize how much money there is to make in downtown Detroit.

OMG.... so now we're back to the "Detroit is turning a corner" speech and 'critical mass' is right around the corner? Are you kidding? Wow haven't been hearing that around here since 1995. Those Casinos along the river will really bring in the tourists and we'll have critical mass for development.....errr..... Just wait for the All Star game....the momentum will be huge. Brush park and Cass will have all those empty buildings turned into lofts. errr.....Just wait for the super bowl... the momentum will be HUGE-er, there will be lofts in the Broderick AND Whitney [[look they even put up signs saying so!) and the stores along Woodward will be all full again......errrr... The Bus is buying the Uniroyal Site and it's going to be AWESOME...errr....Just wait until the warm up to the final four....1001 Woodward will be converted to lofts....errrr... Just wait until Visteon moves into One Kennedy ....errrr..... Just wait until Frank Taylor gets all those restaurants up and running...errr..... Just wait until the river town lofts, @water lofts...take off...errr. Oh we just need an upscale grocer...and we'll be set....Um... oh yeah...Air Races....that'll do it! oh...Red bull took those away?

Unfortunately, with financial markets being the way they are right now, this is not the time for such work to happen, nor is it the time to make hasty decisions.

I keep trying to figure out how a building that has been empty for 13 years being torn down is a "hasty" decision? And.. how in the times of easy money and interest in redevelopment did this building sit empty this whole time....that is, if it was really just a matter of getting financing?

But, fine...you're right, rehabbing two hotels at half a billion dollars makes it all worth while. I give up, I am 100% in agreement that not one building should be torn down in Detroit from now on. Ok, now what? Now that we've saved them all, what do we do with them all now? How many decades will they be allowed to sit empty? What is YOUR time line? There are no Super Bowls...or All Star games...or Final Fours on the horizon for the region to get behind. I'm not denying there has been progress, but it fairly obvious that the 'critcal mass' that had been promised and were all working towards never materialized. All the investment...all the political will... all the volunteer efforts over the last 10-15 years have only gotten us to here. A city with some nice additions...however; nice amenities notwithstanding, it's a city with MORE empty and blighted downtown space than when we started blathering on about "critical mass".

[Stosh]

Associated Press - June 10, 2009 3:04 PM ET
DETROIT [[AP) - A $3.8 million federal earmark intended to help save Tiger Stadium may end up being spent even if nothing is left of the stadium.
U.S. Sen. Carl Levin said Tuesday his earmark was designated for "preservation and redevelopment of a public park and related business activities" in Detroit's Corktown neighborhood.
The Michigan Democrat says even if the building is gone, the money still would be available for a new redevelopment plan by the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy involving the ballfield.
Board member Gary Gillette says the group hasn't decided its plans.
Levin's office didn't know how long the money would be available or what happens if it isn't spent.
Crews began leveling the stadium Monday. The ballpark opened in 1912, and the Tigers departed in 1999.



It appears that it has to be used for a public park in the Corktown area. Which means the OTSC is going to have to deal with the City of Detroit and/or DEGC. Being in the CBD, the Lafayette Building is probably out of the question.

It appears more likely that they will attempt to have a development, instead of a park. How the development is created and run by the non-profit will yet to be seen. The 3.8 Million earmark will always have to be monitored by the feds, and they still have to deal with Jackson and the COD in order to get it done.

[mwilbert]

Whether or not stuff has gotten built on former building sites in the past doesn't seem like a very sensible argument--if someone wanted to build something on the site of the Lafayette Building, I think most people would be fine with demolishing it; it is a somewhat interesting building, but not exactly a gem.

The question is whether to demolish it and replace it with an empty lot. I don't really see the point. Spending money on demolishing it is making an investment with no reasonable expectation of return. If there is ever a shortage of building sites in downtown Detroit, you could even demolish it on spec and I wouldn't complain.

FYI, there was a big computer center in the Lafayette Building, so at least part of it could accomodate that, and communications wiring isn't that big a problem if you are doing a major rehab--the specs change at least every decade anyway. The problem with the building [[aside from the fact that there isn't a shortage of office space in Detroit and that it has been vacant for a decade) is that the floors aren't that big, and are triangular with a central airspace. You get a lot of nice windows, but you end up with a lot of hard-to-use space, and you have to walk a long way to see other people. It might make a better residential building, except there isn't so much demand for that either.

[ghettopalmetto]

OMG.... so now we're back to the "Detroit is turning a corner" speech and 'critical mass' is right around the corner? Are you kidding? Wow haven't been hearing that around here since 1995. Those Casinos along the river will really bring in the tourists and we'll have critical mass for development.....errr..... Just wait for the All Star game....the momentum will be huge. Brush park and Cass will have all those empty buildings turned into lofts. errr.....Just wait for the super bowl... the momentum will be HUGE-er, there will be lofts in the Broderick AND Whitney [[look they even put up signs saying so!) and the stores along Woodward will be all full again......errrr... The Bus is buying the Uniroyal Site and it's going to be AWESOME...errr....Just wait until the warm up to the final four....1001 Woodward will be converted to lofts....errrr... Just wait until Visteon moves into One Kennedy ....errrr..... Just wait until Frank Taylor gets all those restaurants up and running...errr..... Just wait until the river town lofts, @water lofts...take off...errr. Oh we just need an upscale grocer...and we'll be set....Um... oh yeah...Air Races....that'll do it! oh...Red bull took those away?

I keep trying to figure out how a building that has been empty for 13 years being torn down is a "hasty" decision? And.. how in the times of easy money and interest in redevelopment did this building sit empty this whole time....that is, if it was really just a matter of getting financing?

But, fine...you're right, rehabbing two hotels at half a billion dollars makes it all worth while. I give up, I am 100% in agreement that not one building should be torn down in Detroit from now on. Ok, now what? Now that we've saved them all, what do we do with them all now? How many decades will they be allowed to sit empty? What is YOUR time line? There are no Super Bowls...or All Star games...or Final Fours on the horizon for the region to get behind. I'm not denying there has been progress, but it fairly obvious that the 'critcal mass' that had been promised and were all working towards never materialized. All the investment...all the political will... all the volunteer efforts over the last 10-15 years have only gotten us to here. A city with some nice additions...however; nice amenities notwithstanding, it's a city with MORE empty and blighted downtown space than when we started blathering on about "critical mass".

Whoa. Settle down and breathe.

You'll note that I did not attach a timeline for redevelopment, or generating critical mass. I don't know where you got this "right around the corner" business, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. It will guaranteed *never* happen if everything of historic value is demolished.

I've been consistent in my writings on this forum that casinos and big events aren't going to do much for the long-term prospects of Detroit, so let's get that out of our heads. None of those things is going to "inspire" development, just like Hank the Deuce's colossal fortress on the Detroit River didn't "inspire" development like it was intended.

Unfortunately, the DEGC *does* establish artificial timelines for demolition, which aren't based on any concrete data or actual need. I'm sorry to inform you that a true preservation/renovation/adaptive reuse effort is going to take time. There are no easy solutions, but it will be worth it in the long haul when more pieces come together and contribute. Just think where Detroit would be without the Fox, the Gem, the Opera House, the State/Fillmore, the Book-Cadillac, the Fort-Shelby. Imagine all of those buildings as empty lots, and tell me that it would be a far more attractive and desirable place to an entrepreneur.

[bailey]

Imagine all of those buildings as empty lots, and tell me that it would be a far more attractive and desirable place to an entrepreneur.

First of all, you keep missing my point.. Mine is not "tear everything down" mine is review case by case. 'One off' things like the Opera house..etc should be saved if possible. Bringing another few hundred thousand square feet of office space online with public money into a city drowning in empty office space? maybe not.

Second, I would think that entrepreneurs care less about architecture than they care about a welcoming business climate, controlling costs, reduced red tape, functional governance, and an educated workforce.

Tear it down...or keep it up, the fact remains that very, very few have the desire to deal with Detroit or Michigan when it comes to setting up shop. Change that and maybe we wont have need for a DEGC .

[kraig]

All of you that are interested in preservation, LEARN YOUR HISTORY.By all rights you would own this conversation if you really knew your history on this subject. Your hearts are in the right place, unfortunately, your knowledge base just isn't matching up.

Why on earth none of you came at the rest of us with Wonderbread or the Parke-Davis Company projects surprised the hell out of me.

If you knew your history, especially recent history, you would realize that there is a common denominator to the more succesful preservation projects. They were designed to make money. Non-profit stuff isn't going to get as much play. It may get some play, but not a lot.

Additionally, if you plan on doing preservation work, again, learn your history and identify preservation projects that worked and how they worked. Once any of you do that, you will realize that the OTSC, for all its good intentions and talented people, were out of their element and didn't have a clue as to what they were doing.