Lafayette Building next on DEGC hit list?

[ghettopalmetto]

The economy rebounding and Detroit "coming back" are two different things. If the last 20 years hasn't shown that, well, you are ignoring reality.

When you're sufficiently vague with a phrase like "Detroit 'coming back' ", it's pretty easy to be right, isn't it?

Let's look at the past 20 years. During up economic cycles, we've seen places like the Fox Theatre, Michigan Opera Theatre, the Book-Cadillac, Renaissance Center, and Hotel Fort Shelby get renovated. What ONE new development has occurred as a direct result of a demolition in the past 20 years? If, during a down economic cycle, those buildings had been demolished [[as intended), you don't have those buildings there today paying taxes. Empty lots do not a city make, my friend.

[ghettopalmetto]

The economy in Metro Detroit isnt returning for 2 years AT LEAST....the economy for the CBD? well that is a different story.

Yeah, you're right. Two years--what an eternity. Better demolish every fucking last thing RIGHT NOW.

[ghettopalmetto]

BINGO! Hit the nail on the head

Likewise, why don't you pony up the cash for every *publicly-owned* building you want demolished?

You completely misunderstand the role of a conservancy group, which is to preserve architectural heritage and economic competitiveness on behalf of the larger community. "Conservancy" is not synonymous with developer.

Folks like Preservation Wayne and Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy have every right to demand responsible use of public resources.

[detourdetroit]

for the benefit of all the "hey would" you dig it before you spigot...

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/...tml?1238076936

[rjlj]

Here's a thought for any historic conservancy groups out there. Identify a building that you feel is worth saving, develop a business plan, identify funding, and get the property before it falls into the hands of the DEGC.

Already happening, though the part about getting a property before it falls into the hands of the DECG is a tough one.

[bailey]

When you're sufficiently vague with a phrase like "Detroit 'coming back' ", it's pretty easy to be right, isn't it?

Let's look at the past 20 years. During up economic cycles, we've seen places like the Fox Theatre, Michigan Opera Theatre, the Book-Cadillac, Renaissance Center, and Hotel Fort Shelby get renovated. What ONE new development has occurred as a direct result of a demolition in the past 20 years? If, during a down economic cycle, those buildings had been demolished [[as intended), you don't have those buildings there today paying taxes. Empty lots do not a city make, my friend.

Not to pick nits...but I was using the same thing GreenDetroit said... " Picture this: It's 2020 and Detroit has come back from the dead."

And during the time of your examples.... the David Whitney stood empty, the Brodrick stood empty, Lee Plaza stood empty...and had it's roof stripped off in broad daylight, the Book Building finally shuttered after a decades slide into abandonment, the Statler remained empty, the UA remained empty, The Madion lennox remained empty, the DAR sits empty, how many loft projects have been announced and have failed to materialize in Brush park...on Cass. ... I mean really should I keep going?

I'm not saying level the city, I'm saying develop the city. If there is a use for it, use it. If not tear it down. Detroit needs more empty office space and more failed loft developments?
Empty buildings and blight don't make a city either. Well, at least not a very attractive one.

[GREENTROIT]

No, you're right. Derelict buildings enhance the grittiness that is detroit. I'm sure the guests and condo owners at the Book really enjoy the premium view. I know I enjoy walking past it. It so enhances the area.

Would a dirt lot enhance the area? no. but a pocket park would.

A pocket park?!? Could you please send me some of the acid that you're taking. This ciy can't even take care of an amazing resource like Belle Isle, they've allowed Riverside Park to be overtaken by Moroun, yet you expect them to demo the Lafayette and build a "pocket park"??? Ummm, sure thing. Just don't expect your pocket park to be any more than a gravel lot with a handful of broken bottles and a few homeless dudes. I'm sure that will be much more visually appealing to the guests in the BC.

[kraig]

[quote=ghettopalmetto;33699]

What ONE new development has occurred as a direct result of a demolition in the past 20 years?

Compuware
Campus Martius
Ernst & Young
Ford Field
Comerica Park
Greektown Hotel
One Detroit Center
Brewery Park [[may be a little more than 20)
Chene Square
IHOP on Jefferson
Starbucks [[soon to be Tim Horton's) on Jefferson

Will those do, ghettopalmetto?

[ghettopalmetto]

Not to pick nits...but I was using the same thing GreenDetroit said... " Picture this: It's 2020 and Detroit has come back from the dead."

And during the time of your examples.... the David Whitney stood empty, the Brodrick stood empty, Lee Plaza stood empty...and had it's roof stripped off in broad daylight, the Book Building finally shuttered after a decades slide into abandonment, the Statler remained empty, the UA remained empty, The Madion lennox remained empty, the DAR sits empty, how many loft projects have been announced and have failed to materialize in Brush park...on Cass. ... I mean really should I keep going?

I'm not saying level the city, I'm saying develop the city. If there is a use for it, use it. If not tear it down. Detroit needs more empty office space and more failed loft developments?
Empty buildings and blight don't make a city either. Well, at least not a very attractive one.

Why do empty buildings *have* to be demolished? Like my mom used to say, if it's not bothering you, leave it the hell alone.

With demolition, you destroy a hell of a lot of value and make economic redevelopment even more financially unfeasible. It's not as if a lot of these buildings are sudden nuisances. Did you just wake up and realize that there are abandoned buildings? Oh gosh! What will people think?

Frankly, I think you and the pro-demolition crowd are just mentally lazy, for not being able to envision any re-use and for shying away from the hard work necessary to make Detroit anything other than a city of parking lots.

As with the Tiger Stadium screw-over, the DEGC has proven time and again it's not ready to do business. And to be quite truthful, no businessperson worth their salt is going to have any confidence in a City that doesn't have respect for itself.

Get out of the 1950s already. It's expensive and it doesn't work.

[EastsideAl]

Yes, but are vacant lots better?

Why lose what's left of our urban fabric and architectural history for the promise of... nothing but emptiness. At least if you still have the building you have the hope of reusing or redeveloping it someday - like, say, the Book Cadillac or the Fort Shelby. If there were concrete plans for redevelopment I might feel a bit differently, but right now they seem to be on a destruction binge just for the appearance of doing something, even if it results in a net loss for the city itself. The indifference and hostility to our own urban history around here, and in our city government, is maddening. And tearing stuff down just to tear stuff down is really madness.

[bailey]

A pocket park?!? Could you please send me some of the acid that you're taking. This ciy can't even take care of an amazing resource like Belle Isle, they've allowed Riverside Park to be overtaken by Moroun, yet you expect them to demo the Lafayette and build a "pocket park"??? Ummm, sure thing. Just don't expect your pocket park to be any more than a gravel lot with a handful of broken bottles and a few homeless dudes. I'm sure that will be much more visually appealing to the guests in the BC.

you're the one positing that an economic recovery of heretofore unheard of proportions will have raised detroit from it's current depths to prosperity in 10 years, but I'm the one on an acid trip?

[ghettopalmetto]

[quote=kraig;33717]

What ONE new development has occurred as a direct result of a demolition in the past 20 years?

Compuware
Campus Martius
Ernst & Young
Ford Field
Comerica Park
Greektown Hotel
One Detroit Center
Brewery Park [[may be a little more than 20)
Chene Square
IHOP on Jefferson
Starbucks [[soon to be Tim Horton's) on Jefferson

Will those do, ghettopalmetto?

Which demolitions are you connecting to each of these projects? Let's see the direct causation.

For one, I can tell you that Compuware was built on an existing empty lot. No demolition required, chief. Campus Martius was the result of the Kennedy Square renovation and reconfiguration of Woodward. Are you gonna argue that couldn't have happened without demolishing Hudson's?

What I see above is a list. Show the cause-and-effect, please.

[GREENTROIT]

you're the one positing that an economic recovery of heretofore unheard of proportions will have raised detroit from it's current depths to prosperity in 10 years, but I'm the one on an acid trip?

I never said anything like that. I made the point that it's a hell of a lot easier to do something with a standing building than a empty lot.

[DetroitDad]

Not to pick nits...but I was using the same thing GreenDetroit said... " Picture this: It's 2020 and Detroit has come back from the dead."

And during the time of your examples.... the David Whitney stood empty, the Brodrick stood empty, Lee Plaza stood empty...and had it's roof stripped off in broad daylight, the Book Building finally shuttered after a decades slide into abandonment, the Statler remained empty, the UA remained empty, The Madion lennox remained empty, the DAR sits empty, how many loft projects have been announced and have failed to materialize in Brush park...on Cass. ... I mean really should I keep going?

I'm not saying level the city, I'm saying develop the city. If there is a use for it, use it. If not tear it down. Detroit needs more empty office space and more failed loft developments?
Empty buildings and blight don't make a city either. Well, at least not a very attractive one.

Empty lots or girder farms are worse eyesores and really just another form of blight. Empty surface lots ruin the outdoor wall making it less attractive to would be urbanites, and make an area less walkable, especially in the Winter. Have you ever walked by the old Hudson site in the Winter and felt the wind gusts? How about walking by the lots North of Foxtown?

[detourdetroit]

Semantically you're right K, but there's arguably serious qualifications for at least half that list. Since we're playing in the muddy gray zone of Detroit truthiness, I'd say that a rule of thumb is demolition in Detroit does not equate with new development.

[Gistok]

Kraig, you list is flawed, many of the sites you mentioned [[like Campus Martius, Compuware Building) were empty lots for decades And they removed a city owned parking structure to put up Greektown Hotel... and another parking structure.

I can also see that there are some new folks on the forum... that don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of historic preservation, historic tax credits, adaptive reuse, etc....

The "rip it down" mentality is not a sign of logic... but of ignorance of the past. Once these buildings [[mostly made of quality materials that are prohibitively expensive to reproduce today) are gone, they're gone forever. Who wants to come downtown to look at a copy of Troy or Southfield?

[bailey]

With demolition, you destroy a hell of a lot of value and make economic redevelopment even more financially unfeasible. It's not as if a lot of these buildings are sudden nuisances. Did you just wake up and realize that there are abandoned buildings? Oh gosh! What will people think?

Yes, you're right. Half of a city's identifiable skyline SHOULD be made up of derelict buildings. Again, just keeping it real. Detroit-style.

After decades of being empty...buildings start losing large pieces off the facades, water fills the basements, roofs start caving in [[or disappearing) and fun stuff like all the pipes and wiring mysteriously leaves.

But no, keep up the empty buildings and hope that one day the shell can be used. In the mean time, hopefully no one is killed in the spontaneous collapse...or when half a ton of facade falls off. But again...that is just keeping it "gritty" and real.

Why lose what's left of our urban fabric and architectural history for the promise of... nothing but emptiness

Yes, the MCD and it's rape tunnel really have enhanced the urban fabric of Corktown.

[DetroitDad]

Kunstlercast Episode #68 about historic preservation and why so many people have their panties in a bunch over this issue. Press the play sign on the little orange tab. If the street views don't work, click the "view larger version" link; http://kunstlercast.com/shows/Kunstl...servation.html

[ghettopalmetto]

Yes, you're right. Half of a city's identifiable skyline SHOULD be made up of derelict buildings. Again, just keeping it real. Detroit-style.

After decades of being empty...buildings start losing large pieces off the facades, water fills the basements, roofs start caving in [[or disappearing) and fun stuff like all the pipes and wiring mysteriously leaves.

But no, keep up the empty buildings and hope that one day the shell can be used. In the mean time, hopefully no one is killed in the spontaneous collapse...or when half a ton of facade falls off. But again...that is just keeping it "gritty" and real.

Yes, the MCD and it's rape tunnel really have enhanced the urban fabric of Corktown.

Well, some people like to focus on the economics and architecture rather than the postcard shot.

Please tell me the last time you saw the spontaneous collapse of a building.

[kraig]

[quote=ghettopalmetto;33724]

Which demolitions are you connecting to each of these projects? Let's see the direct causation.

For one, I can tell you that Compuware was built on an existing empty lot. No demolition required, chief. Campus Martius was the result of the Kennedy Square renovation and reconfiguration of Woodward. Are you gonna argue that couldn't have happened without demolishing Hudson's?

What I see above is a list. Show the cause-and-effect, please.

Compuware -Hudson's
Campus Martius -Hudson's
Ernst & Young -Kennedy Square Garage
Ford Field -Vacant Row Houses
Comerica Park -Vacant Row Houses
Greektown Hotel -Parwycke Apts, City Garage
One Detroit Center -Old Greyhound Bus Station
Brewery Park [[may be a little more than 20) -Stroh's Brewery
Chene Square -Vacant Property
IHOP on Jefferson -Little Harry's
Starbucks [[soon to be Tim Horton's) on Jefferson -Vacant Property.

Compuware and Campus Martius, along with the Premiere Garage, utilized tax credits that were connected to the Hudson's building. Compuware would not have moved into the heart of Downtown Detroit without parking. They also received their own parking garage. But hey, what's a few thousand jobs? After all, there were so many people that had been working at the abandoned Hudson's building, right?

The others, buildings were torn down and new buildings were put up.

[Fnemecek]

Here's a thought for any historic conservancy groups out there. Identify a building that you feel is worth saving, develop a business plan, identify funding, and get the property before it falls into the hands of the DEGC.

Trying to save a building before it falls into the hand of the DEGC is like trying to save a whale before it gets into the water. One of the fundamental problems with Detroit is that the DEGC has its hands in everything.

[kraig]

Trying to save a building before it falls into the hand of the DEGC is like trying to save a whale before it gets into the water. One of the fundamental problems with Detroit is that the DEGC has its hands in everything.

They don't have everything. List some buildings that you think are worth saving and have an idea for what can be done with them.

Or, there's always the option to bitch and moan, since we all know that works so well. [[sarcasm)

[ghettopalmetto]

[quote=kraig;33737]

Compuware -Hudson's
Campus Martius -Hudson's
Ernst & Young -Kennedy Square Garage
Ford Field -Vacant Row Houses
Comerica Park -Vacant Row Houses
Greektown Hotel -Parwycke Apts, City Garage
One Detroit Center -Old Greyhound Bus Station
Brewery Park [[may be a little more than 20) -Stroh's Brewery
Chene Square -Vacant Property
IHOP on Jefferson -Little Harry's
Starbucks [[soon to be Tim Horton's) on Jefferson -Vacant Property.

Compuware and Campus Martius, along with the Premiere Garage, utilized tax credits that were connected to the Hudson's building. Compuware would not have moved into the heart of Downtown Detroit without parking. They also received their own parking garage. But hey, what's a few thousand jobs? After all, there were so many people that had been working at the abandoned Hudson's building, right?

The others, buildings were torn down and new buildings were put up.

Let me make two statements. You tell me which one is correct.

1. The Old Greyhound Bus Station was demolished to accommodate One Detroit Center.

2. One Detroit Center was constructed because the Old Greyhound Bus Station was demolished.

[ghettopalmetto]

Frank and PalmettoMan,


The economy in Detroit comes back in 3 years, at best.

What do you envision at that location?

We are now closing in on 13 years of abandonment....

what can the property be used for guys?

Wow. Three whole years. Yeah, that's way too long to wait to do something with what will then be an 89 year old building. Better tear it down. You wouldn't want it to spontaneously collapse on anyone or anything. Better get a non-engineer on the DEGC to declare it structurally unsound.

[kraig]

[quote=ghettopalmetto;33748]

Let me make two statements. You tell me which one is correct.

1. The Old Greyhound Bus Station was demolished to accommodate One Detroit Center.

2. One Detroit Center was constructed because the Old Greyhound Bus Station was demolished.

How about this for a statement.

Since the Greyhound Bus Station was no longer there, the One Detroit Center was built on the site. Forget conjecture and/or innuendo, that's a bona fide fact.

Could you build One Detroit Center on the site if Greyhound was still there? NO.