Are there ANY examples of how State Takeovers actually "helped" anyone?

**313hero** · April-03-12, 12:20 PM

State took over DPS, we see what that got us. State took over Pontiac, we see what that got us. The State took over Highland Park, etc, etc. They all seem to be worse off than before. Thats why I get so tired of people saying "the State wants to help, why dont they just let them" Well with their track record why should we want their "help". Someone please explain.

**Scottathew** · April-03-12, 12:29 PM

You seem to be opposed to the cuts that have to be made.

The state's job isn't to make rainbows and sunshine happen everyday, the state steps in to balance the budget, typically by making massive cuts.

If these cities and school districts want to have the services and wasteful spending at their current levels maintained, they need to raise taxes.

Simple principle here: Balance your budget on your own, or have the state do it for you.

Want local control? Want to have lots of expensive services? Then simply balance your budget and pay for it.

**313hero** · April-03-12, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

You seem to be opposed to the cuts that have to be made.

The state's job isn't to make rainbows and sunshine happen everyday, the state steps in to balance the budget, typically by making massive cuts.

If these cities and school districts want to have the services and wasteful spending at their current levels maintained, they need to raise taxes.

Simple principle here: Balance your budget on your own, or have the state do it for you.

Want local control? Want to have lots of expensive services? Then simply balance your budget and pay for it.

I dont know what I said to make it "seem" that I'm opposed to cuts, cause I'm not. I live in reality. I know that alot of things MUST change. However my ? was/is is Has the State shown that they can "help". Yes our clowncil and Mayor are not _______. But the State hasnt shown any of us that they are able to "help". I'm not opposed to making EVERY employee a contract employee and make them pay for their own health care etc. I'm not opposed to that @ all. I'm not opposed to alot of things that will help the city move forward. However I am opposed to loosing my democratic right to vote, or even my republican right to vote lol. I like Snyder to be honest, so far, so good. Except when it comes to State Takeovers. Like I said earlier I live in reality and know that nothing will fix Detroits problems overnight. The problem I see is a lack of vision, lack of inginuity. Detroiters scream all day and night about our assets but no one wants to make our "assets" generate us money or at least pay for themselves. Its no reason why Belle Isle is still free. Its no reason they havnt converted the City Airport into a drag strip on the weekends. No reason why a messed up burned out neighborhood shouldnt be converted to a paint ball warzone and call it urban warfare. No reason the empty parts of the river front be converted to a fair ground. etc. They need to start using our assets as what they are assets. Whats the point of having alot of "jewels" and not shining them up or @ least putting them on display. Make Money Detroit. get to making money. The Mayor nor CC has came up w/ ANYTHING to make money besides raising taxes, and longer meter hours. WTF. so frustrating.

**Scottathew** · April-03-12, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by 313hero

I dont know what I said to make it "seem" that I'm opposed to cuts, cause I'm not. I live in reality. I know that alot of things MUST change. However my ? was/is is Has the State shown that they can "help". Yes our clowncil and Mayor are not _______. But the State hasnt shown any of us that they are able to "help". I'm not opposed to making EVERY employee a contract employee and make them pay for their own health care etc. I'm not opposed to that @ all. I'm not opposed to alot of things that will help the city move forward. However I am opposed to loosing my democratic right to vote, or even my republican right to vote lol. I like Snyder to be honest, so far, so good. Except when it comes to State Takeovers. Like I said earlier I live in reality and know that nothing will fix Detroits problems overnight. The problem I see is a lack of vision, lack of inginuity. Detroiters scream all day and night about our assets but no one wants to make our "assets" generate us money or at least pay for themselves. Its no reason why Belle Isle is still free. Its no reason they havnt converted the City Airport into a drag strip on the weekends. No reason why a messed up burned out neighborhood shouldnt be converted to a paint ball warzone and call it urban warfare. No reason the empty parts of the river front be converted to a fair ground. etc. They need to start using our assets as what they are assets. Whats the point of having alot of "jewels" and not shining them up or @ least putting them on display. Make Money Detroit. get to making money. The Mayor nor CC has came up w/ ANYTHING to make money besides raising taxes, and longer meter hours. WTF. so frustrating.

Well, I certainly agree with you here. You've proposed a lot of good ideas to generate revenue.

I still believe that the main issues are:

1) Too much infrastructure to maintain [[you still have to maintain blocks that only have one or two houses on them)
2) Inefficient management of assets and lack of technology efficiency
3) Union contracts that benefit the workers far more than they benefit the residents

I agree new revenues are great ideas. I'm for a blended approach to balancing the budget. However, I think it's need to be about an 85/15 blend, that is most of it being cuts.

The state is stepping in not because it wants to, but because it must. Detroit's elected officials have neglected their duties and the city is bankrupt.

**renf** · April-03-12, 12:37 PM

I do not know of any clear examples of where state take-over brought positive
results. When an emergency manager is appointed, his or her basic job is to
cut costs by reducing employment, wages, and services. He or she cannot
impose new taxes and, by Michigan law, must pay pensions and the bondholders. It is a terrible job.
Harrisburgh, Pennsylvania is in very much worse financial shape than Detroit. The state bankruptcy court appointed an emergency financial manager last
December. He quit on Friday. Apparently, many on the city's payroll "slow-walked" him. City employees and services would fare poorly in a bankruptcy but the bond holders might also suffer a bit.

**gazhekwe** · April-03-12, 12:46 PM

Joyce Parker, Ecorse Emergency Manager, Credits Public Act 4 With City's Turnaround

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

**Detroitnerd** · April-03-12, 12:55 PM

Seems in my experience that the state takeovers leave cities and institutions without black majorities in better shape.

Hamtramck and Ecorse? Seemed to do well by them, I suppose.

But DPS? Left them deeper in dept and operating at a defecit.

Highland Park? Was going OK until the governor appointed political bottom-feeder Art Blackwell, who promptly jacked up his salary retroactively and let the city fall apart.

Is this a huge generalization based on a few instances? Yes. Is it racism at work? I don't know. But as a resident of majority-black Detroit, I don't know how thankful I should be for the "help" I'm about to get.

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by 313hero

State took over DPS, we see what that got us. State took over Pontiac, we see what that got us. The State took over Highland Park, etc, etc. They all seem to be worse off than before. Thats why I get so tired of people saying "the State wants to help, why dont they just let them" Well with their track record why should we want their "help". Someone please explain.

The problem is inherent in the question. Instead of asking, "Why should we want their help?" let's look at "What happens if we turn their help down?"

When a diabetic is suffering from a gangrenous wound, they may have to amputate their foot. But as much as no one wants to amputate their foot...it's much worse to amputate your entire leg, so better to just get it done already.

**Detroitnerd** · April-03-12, 01:27 PM

It's not quite that simple. Detroit has wound up the way it is both through millions of individual decisions, many of those by people who simply chose to take their wealth and community spirit and leave, and by major policy decisions at all levels of government which affected those decisions [[freeways, GI Bill, military decentralization, outlawing de jure segregation). All those decisions have cemented who the "winners" are in this society, and who the "losers" are. Detroit is one of the "losers." Detroit has borne the brunt of the pain.

Now imagine it from the standpoint of Detroit. After all the "winners" turned their back on you, took the money and ran, considered you a political prize for a bunch of increasingly corrupt bottom-feeders but said nothing until it became unavoidable and even then dithered ...

... now they want to "help" you ... with more major decisions of policy.

Or, to use another metaphor, just a little operation...

No, I think I understand the fears and frustrations at work here. The winners are coming ... to take what's left.

**Novine** · April-03-12, 01:39 PM

Ecorse? Seriously? They went bankrupt in the late 80s. Like Flint and others, they've been through multiple rounds of financial emergencies. Hardly a poster child for how oversight by the state and the courts have helped Michigan cities.

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's not quite that simple. Detroit has wound up the way it is both through millions of individual decisions, many of those by people who simply chose to take their wealth and community spirit and leave, and by major policy decisions at all levels of government which affected those decisions [[freeways, GI Bill, military decentralization, outlawing de jure segregation). All those decisions have cemented who the "winners" are in this society, and who the "losers" are. Detroit is one of the "losers." Detroit has borne the brunt of the pain.

Now imagine it from the standpoint of Detroit. After all the "winners" turned their back on you, took the money and ran, considered you a political prize for a bunch of increasingly corrupt bottom-feeders but said nothing until it became unavoidable and even then dithered ...

... now they want to "help" you ... with more major decisions of policy.

Or, to use another metaphor, just a little operation...

No, I think I understand the fears and frustrations at work here.

Well, I understand and can empathize with all you're saying. I do understand the fears and frustrations, too...though I think they're misguided. Everyone is afraid of what happens if the state comes in. Why aren't people afraid of what happens if the state *doesn't* come in?

and then....

The winners are coming ... to take what's left.

...I try to keep an open mind on this forum; I just don't understand exactly what you mean by this? Who will take anything? What will they take? And where are they going to take it to?

**Detroitnerd** · April-03-12, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I try to keep an open mind on this forum; I just don't understand exactly what you mean by this? Who will take anything? What will they take? And where are they going to take it to?

And I'm just trying to channel a majority of my fellow citizens. But I understand their fears and worries enough, I think, to imagine what they fear: Powerful players, self-interested suburban leaders and city-hatin' outstate interests using Detroit as a playground of ideological-drive privatization, selling off the water system, even unincorporating the city's land in a fire sale that leaves the people of Detroit with an even poorer government beholden to undemocratic institutions such as authorities and corporations.

And you look to the past and see how these stories have played out, since the destruction of Paradise Valley through Poletown down to today and, you have to admit, they might not feel that way if the metro area's leading lights haven't had such a poor track record ...

Now is that an obstacle to financial health or a seasoned understanding of history? Depends on your standpoint, I guess. But it's real and should be acknowledged going forward. I know if I were appointed manager of Detroit, I wouldn't try to lecture Detroiters ... I'd apologize to them for the sins of the past and get to work ...

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I know if I were appointed manager of Detroit, I wouldn't try to lecture Detroiters ... I'd apologize to them for the sins of the past and get to work ...

Well, I can agree with that. I'm hearing that there are past histories and past hurts that have gone unacknowledged. I strongly advocate that those voices be heard and considered. And then...yes...I would be sensitive to those experiences and do my best to get to work.

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

And I'm just trying to channel a majority of my fellow citizens. But I understand their fears and worries enough, I think, to imagine what they fear: Powerful players, self-interested suburban leaders and city-hatin' outstate interests using Detroit as a playground of ideological-drive privatization, selling off the water system, even unincorporating the city's land in a fire sale that leaves the people of Detroit with an even poorer government beholden to undemocratic institutions such as authorities and corporations.

And you look to the past and see how these stories have played out, since the destruction of Paradise Valley through Poletown down to today and, you have to admit, they might not feel that way if the metro area's leading lights haven't had such a poor track record ...

Now is that an obstacle to financial health or a seasoned understanding of history? Depends on your standpoint, I guess. But it's real and should be acknowledged going forward. I know if I were appointed manager of Detroit, I wouldn't try to lecture Detroiters ... I'd apologize to them for the sins of the past and get to work ...

And, by the way, what you've put forth is something that has been noticeably absent from public dialogue. If the Shabazz's of the world could hold off on the arson threats and speak articulately to the points which you brought up, then I think you'd find more sympathetic ears.

**skyl4rk** · April-03-12, 03:44 PM

Joe Harris in Benton Harbor seems to have turned it around and moving back in the right direction.

http://www.heraldpalladium.com/artic...ws/9307414.txt

**Hermod** · April-04-12, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

using Detroit as a playground of ideological-drive privatization

Privatization is not a dirty word [[except to employee unions).

Here in SE Florida, few of the cities and counties have public trash collection. They employ a private corporation under a contract where the private corporation is paid a fixed fee for ton of garbage, trash, and yard waste collected and delivered to the landfill or incinerator. The corporation is also paid a fixed fee per ton of recyclables delivered to the recycling facility. The executive at the private corporation tries to keep his manpower and equipment costs as low as possible so that profit is maximized out of the fixed fees per ton and his bonus is based on that. He strives for the most efficient use of personnel and equipment and tries to minimize call-backs for missed pickups. They are profitable enough that, at this time, another company is bidding significantly less for the contracts.

Now take a public sanitation department. Here the executives salary is based on the size of his department both in terms of manpower and budget. Therefore, maximizing manpower and cost is good and reduction is bad. Since the front line "sanitary collection engineers" are unionized, he will give out everything they want at bargaining time because they vote, he doesn't want any headaches, and it isn't his money. The union bosses have their salaries set n the amount of union dues collected. The result is a system which maximizes featherbedding and hierarchy. If you try to cut, they cut from the bottom and reduce services.

**EastsideAl** · April-04-12, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Now take a public sanitation department. Here the executives salary is based on the size of his department both in terms of manpower and budget. Therefore, maximizing manpower and cost is good and reduction is bad. Since the front line "sanitary collection engineers" are unionized, he will give out everything they want at bargaining time because they vote, he doesn't want any headaches, and it isn't his money. The union bosses have their salaries set n the amount of union dues collected. The result is a system which maximizes featherbedding and hierarchy. If you try to cut, they cut from the bottom and reduce services.

On the other hand, sanitation workers are paid an actual living wage, rather than being treated as potential cost-saving drones for someone else's profit. This allows them to buy from local stores and businesses, purchase homes, cars, etc. and actually contribute to the economic well-being of their families and the community. It also allows them to have some dignity in themselves and their work, and a decent retirement in their old age after many years of hard physical labor.

Lest we forget that everything was won only through hard battles fought with those who would prefer to hold all working people down:

**Scottathew** · April-04-12, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Here in SE Florida, few of the cities and counties have public trash collection. They employ a private corporation under a contract where the private corporation is paid a fixed fee for ton of garbage, trash, and yard waste collected and delivered to the landfill or incinerator. The corporation is also paid a fixed fee per ton of recyclables delivered to the recycling facility. The executive at the private corporation tries to keep his manpower and equipment costs as low as possible so that profit is maximized out of the fixed fees per ton and his bonus is based on that. He strives for the most efficient use of personnel and equipment and tries to minimize call-backs for missed pickups. They are profitable enough that, at this time, another company is bidding significantly less for the contracts.

Let me guess, the private garbage workers don't get pensions, right? Another hunch, if they don't do their jobs, there is no union to protect them, right?

I'm all for privatization. Detroit is unable to manage its departments, privatization will fix this.

**Detroitnerd** · April-04-12, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Privatization is not a dirty word [[except to employee unions).

Sure it is. It is legalized graft.

And the community ends up bearing the extra costs while the legal-graft set makes extra, unearned money for being a totally unneccessary middleman.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-04-12, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's not quite that simple. Detroit has wound up the way it is both through millions of individual decisions, many of those by people who simply chose to take their wealth and community spirit and leave, and by major policy decisions at all levels of government which affected those decisions [[freeways, GI Bill, military decentralization, outlawing de jure segregation). All those decisions have cemented who the "winners" are in this society, and who the "losers" are. Detroit is one of the "losers." Detroit has borne the brunt of the pain.

Now imagine it from the standpoint of Detroit. After all the "winners" turned their back on you, took the money and ran, considered you a political prize for a bunch of increasingly corrupt bottom-feeders but said nothing until it became unavoidable and even then dithered ...

... now they want to "help" you ... with more major decisions of policy.

Or, to use another metaphor, just a little operation...

No, I think I understand the fears and frustrations at work here. The winners are coming ... to take what's left.

What odd logic. Blame others. Call youself [[Detroit) a loser. Why do you have so little faith in Detroiters and the City. It has no value or way to make itself better without the stolen 'wealth' that 'cemented' their destiny? It is always someone else's fault.

**Detroitnerd** · April-04-12, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

What odd logic. Blame others. Call youself [[Detroit) a loser. Why do you have so little faith in Detroiters and the City. It has no value or way to make itself better without the stolen 'wealth' that 'cemented' their destiny? It is always someone else's fault.

You're funny, Wesley. You can't even troll properly, can you...

Stick to the Freep boards...

**drjeff** · April-03-12, 03:03 PM

For an EM to be successful the EM has to be competent. I'm not very confident about a competent EM being hired for Detroit. But I also have zero confidence that the current city government can fix what ails the city.

**gazhekwe** · April-03-12, 03:13 PM

I heard an interview with Joyce Parker, Ecorse EM the other day. While Ecorse is not huge, they are having some success bringing down the debt after years of mismanagement. Ecorse has been struggling many years, and with some of the same issues, rising costs, downward spiraling revenue, failure to manage change. The interesting thing about the interview was that, while Ms. Parker is confident she will leave the city in good shape, she did not have anything much to say about how Ecorse will continue after her time is done. She outlined the plans made to reduce the debt and how they were succeeding with the plans, but for leaving the city in other hands once she is gone, she said she hopes they will have the vision to continue in a responsible fashion. I get from that, there is no guarantee, no matter how Detroit addresses its issues, it is only as good as the person leading can make it.

**coracle** · April-03-12, 03:58 PM

Whether its an EM, bankruptcy or any type of financial arrangement it will only serve as another delay in Detroit's continuing demise. Nothing will change as long as crime and the Democratic right to vote of the citizens remains.

**EastsideAl** · April-03-12, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

Whether its an EM, bankruptcy or any type of financial arrangement it will only serve as another delay in Detroit's continuing demise. Nothing will change as long as crime and the Democratic right to vote of the citizens remains.

And people wonder why we don't trust outsiders to have our best interests in mind. For every Shabazz there's at least two or more of this sort of cracker George Wallace wannabe asshole out there in the rest of the state.