Is Dan Gilbert Too Tacky?

[Gannon]

Nobody in a thriving, successful city would give a flying fuck what someone did to the INSIDE of a building they bought.

Until they acquired enough power and momentum enough for their particular brand of bad taste to begin to infect the exteriors...but as I say, by then, it'll be too late!


Sincerely,
John

[Gannon]

I mean...think about it...who in their wildest dreams imagined that a government-owned Generous Motors would ever, in a million years, add LED signage to the exterior of the RenCen?!

I know those took some time after they were ordered to be manufactured and installed.


I don't want a laser-lightshow war to break out across Campus Martius between the nerds of Compuware versus the geeks of Quicken.

Just sayin'...

[Gannon]

As disclaimer, to those who don't know my particularly biting sense of humor...I AM saying all of this with a huge grin on my face.

I LOVE the fact that he is doing anything in our city. Gilbert has already proved his mettle, following up on his words with action.

I totally love that Foran's is now busy as heck, even on Wednesday nights! I'm sure other businesses are enjoying the newbies, and hope everyone is playing nice.

But having a soapbox to moan and whine is our constitutional right, damnit!


Cheers,
John

[gumby]

LOL Gannon,

I, for one, welcome a laser war between Compuware and the Qube.

[Detroitdave]

I hate it when businessmen go into dilapidated and forgotten urban cores and then start buying buildings, moving thousands and thousands of jobs into them, and then have the sheer audacity to renovate them in a way inconsistent with my taste!

Seriously people, you guys are too funny. Let's take a look at how Illitch renovates his properties...

Well said , sure he bought the tigers and wings , put money into the teams , and, it is his money and he can do whatever he wants , and we / the city are grateful, HOWEVER what else has he done improve to his properties in city? He's been holding on to those ugly parking lots FOREVER and has no plans for them and wont even at least make them look half way decent .
How much would it cost to at least make ALL those lots look at least decent until he figures out what he wants to do with them, in the mean time put in a real surface lot with a real fence, instead of a gravel lot , We got that in spades .I'm just saying be a good neighbor around your properties , it does reflect on you and your neighbors . Sure he will do a lot on the property at copa, but what about all the places you own around it ?

[noise]

Nobody in a thriving, successful city would give a flying fuck what someone did to the INSIDE of a building they bought.

I would certainly hope not!

[Gistok]

Gannon, you're 60 years too late... there's so much that has been done to Detroit's historic fabric already [[besides razing it). The Boulevard Building's ugly Brutalist facade [[NE corner Woodward & Grand Blvd.) isn't hiding Albert Kahn's beautiful terra cotta white facade... it was ripped out decades ago.

The Broderick Tower lost its' crown, the David Whitney Building lost its' Daniel Burnham details at the same time on the facade [[clock is gone, as is the decorative detailing). The former Michigan Mutual Building, lost its "Wedding Cake" corner pavilions around the same time that the United Artists Building lost its' Romanesque arches and columns on the first 4 stories thus giving us the architectural muddle that we have today. The Penobscot Buildings 3 story beautiful lobby has been filled in with 2nd and 3rd floor drop ceiling office space.

I hardly think that Gilbert will turn any existing buildings into anything kitschier than was already done to them 1/2 century ago.

As for a new build... well have to wait and see.

[mikeinmotown]

I agree gumby. I personally don't like the guy but thank god he is ivesting in Detroit. Who cares if he's tacky or not. I'm just happy he keeps buying downtown.

[mikeinmotown]

Well said , sure he bought the tigers and wings , put money into the teams , and, it is his money and he can do whatever he wants , and we / the city are grateful, HOWEVER what else has he done improve to his properties in city? He's been holding on to those ugly parking lots FOREVER and has no plans for them and wont even at least make them look half way decent .
How much would it cost to at least make ALL those lots look at least decent until he figures out what he wants to do with them, in the mean time put in a real surface lot with a real fence, instead of a gravel lot , We got that in spades .I'm just saying be a good neighbor around your properties , it does reflect on you and your neighbors . Sure he will do a lot on the property at copa, but what about all the places you own around it ?

Hey Dave, what have you done to improve the city? People bitch about Illitch but at least he's spending money.

[Richard]

Has this been confirmed? Or does that money only count towards a new HQ??

I guess nobody will really know until it happens but in cases like this all you need is the paper saying that it is available for leverage .

Some more insite here. From 2008 though.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=162249

Interesting part: Cullen said Quicken will not bring 4,000 workers downtown as city development officials originally hoped, but he declined to say how many would be relocated.

[Gannon]

Damnit. I'm always late!

[Detroitnerd]

And another shout from "I wanna tell that guy how to spend his money" school of thought. Once again, when you pony up your millions of dollars then you can play interior designer.

Nonsense. You misunderstand the function of criticism. Again, I think this is a metro Detroit thing, that we're in our own little bubble and when anybody invests in something in our city, we are somehow supposed to be so beholden to that investor that we cannot make any judgment of taste -- unless we put up our own money and do what we want.

See, in New York, it isn't like that. When somebody puts up a building, there is often a lively public discussion about its merits. Is it attractive? Does it add to the public realm? Does it blend in with its surroundings? Some may even say the new building is ugly, and nobody shouts, "Pony up your millions of dollars then you can play interior designer!" Far from it. That's because they don't have that special brand of insecurity about criticizing investors you see around here. They are secure enough to have a discussion about culture, and, even if it becomes vigorous, it often remains civil.

Again: The function of criticism is not to attack somebody and scare away investment. The function of criticism is to challenge stale ideas and create a finer sensibility; to discern passing fads from actual advances; and, yes, to identify and often to lampoon bad taste.

I urge you: Don't try to silence that which enriches the public discussion of art and architecture. It's one of those things that makes us seem even more a backwater than we already are.

[downtownguy]

Hey Dave, what have you done to improve the city? People bitch about Illitch but at least he's spending money.

Yep, $214 million for Prince Fielder.

And it's not like those parking lots bring Ilitch any income. Oh, wait. They do.

[antongast]

Nonsense. You misunderstand the function of criticism. Again, I think this is a metro Detroit thing, that we're in our own little bubble and when anybody invests in something in our city, we are somehow supposed to be so beholden to that investor that we cannot make any judgment of taste -- unless we put up our own money and do what we want.

See, in New York, it isn't like that. When somebody puts up a building, there is often a lively public discussion about its merits. Is it attractive? Does it add to the public realm? Does it blend in with its surroundings? Some may even say the new building is ugly, and nobody shouts, "Pony up your millions of dollars then you can play interior designer!" Far from it. That's because they don't have that special brand of insecurity about criticizing investors you see around here. They are secure enough to have a discussion about culture, and, even if it becomes vigorous, it often remains civil.

Again: The function of criticism is not to attack somebody and scare away investment. The function of criticism is to challenge stale ideas and create a finer sensibility; to discern passing fads from actual advances; and, yes, to identify and often to lampoon bad taste.

I urge you: Don't try to silence that which enriches the public discussion of art and architecture. It's one of those things that makes us seem even more a backwater than we already are.

All of this. Why should Gilbert or anyone else want to invest in a city with no self-esteem?

[Scottathew]

See, in New York, it isn't like that. When somebody puts up a building, there is often a lively public discussion about its merits. Is it attractive? Does it add to the public realm? Does it blend in with its surroundings? Some may even say the new building is ugly, and nobody shouts, "Pony up your millions of dollars then you can play interior designer!" Far from it. That's because they don't have that special brand of insecurity about criticizing investors you see around here. They are secure enough to have a discussion about culture, and, even if it becomes vigorous, it often remains civil.

Apples and oranges.

You're speaking of the EXTERIOR of NYC buildings. We're talking about the INTERIOR of a building in Detroit.

In NYC I'm sure there's not anyone bitching about the color choices on floors 60-70 of the ESB.

[Detroitnerd]

Apples and oranges.

You're speaking of the EXTERIOR of NYC buildings. We're talking about the INTERIOR of a building in Detroit.

In NYC I'm sure there's not anyone bitching about the color choices on floors 60-70 of the ESB.

Oh, yes. Apples and oranges is my whole point, 48091. New Yorkers are secure in their standing as a city. It's the insecurity that creeps into our discussions of what goes on here in Detroit that I'm focusing on.

I don't really think the inside vs. outside debate has as much merit as you think. Now, I don't imagine I would go inside the building because I don't work there. But I have seen the pictures in several online pieces. More to the point, we are looking at pictures of interior design right here and mulling over the choices. Sure, the design work is inside the building, but it's widely available online. You can bet that Gilbert had photos taken and has a press agent and wants to show the work off in the media. So we discuss it. And some criticize it. And, as members of the public this work is directed to make an impact upon, it's their right to.

This isn't bitching. This is an important discussion about new work that has been put before us. It doesn't have to be in your living room for that to happen.

[Gistok]

How much would it cost to at least make ALL those lots look at least decent until he figures out what he wants to do with them, in the mean time put in a real surface lot with a real fence, instead of a gravel lot , We got that in spades .I'm just saying be a good neighbor around your properties , it does reflect on you and your neighbors . Sure he will do a lot on the property at copa, but what about all the places you own around it ?

Detroitdave, I share your frustration... BUT.... I think that the Ilitch's aren't going to do squat with all of that west Foxtown and Cass Park area land in Midtown.... until he has the land he needs to build his arena. There's a few important pieces to the puzzle that he doesn't have yet for either location... and until he does.. my gut feeling is that he doesn't want to drive the prices up more than they already are.

He paid the Masonic Temple's utility bills and took over their theatre bookings for a while. Without his intervention there, we'd be seeing an empty Masonic as a "scrapper's paradise" today...

Like I said Ilitch doesn't want to drive up land prices any more than they already are in those areas. Just remember Mayor Archer's riverfront casino disaster on overpriced real estate.

I have a feeling that he's going to pitch the south Midtown area against [[IMHO) his preferred west Foxtown site... I don't think I would want to be "holding out" owning land in the losing site.... The Ilitch's [[as has been seen with the Women's Exchange Building) have a long memory in regards to uncooperative neighbors...

[Det_ard]

Again: The function of criticism is not to attack somebody and scare away investment. The function of criticism is to challenge stale ideas and create a finer sensibility; to discern passing fads from actual advances; and, yes, to identify and often to lampoon bad taste.

I urge you: Don't try to silence that which enriches the public discussion of art and architecture. It's one of those things that makes us seem even more a backwater than we already are.

Now, I don't imagine I would go inside the building because I don't work there. But I have seen the pictures in several online pieces. More to the point, we are looking at pictures of interior design right here and mulling over the choices. Sure, the design work is inside the building, but it's widely available online. You can bet that Gilbert had photos taken and has a press agent and wants to show the work off in the media. So we discuss it. And some criticize it. And, as members of the public this work is directed to make an impact upon, it's their right to.

This isn't bitching. This is an important discussion about new work that has been put before us. It doesn't have to be in your living room for that to happen.

Oh yes, what important work you're doing, sharing your impression of Gilbert's interior decorating style in the same week that Detroit's swirling around the toilet bowl with the likes of Charles Pugh's or Dave Bing's hand on the flush lever.

God forbid commerce go forward in Michigan without the input of our own self-styled Martha Stewart. Some one [[Gilbert) is out there doing, which inevitably attracts chirping from those on the opposite side of the spectrum from "doing". What this really is, is self-important folks engaged in self-pleasuring.

LOL, , world weep wisdom, ...

[Detroitnerd]

Oh yes, what important work you're doing, sharing your impression of Gilbert's interior decorating style in the same week that Detroit's swirling around the toilet bowl with the likes of Charles Pugh's or Dave Bing's hand on the flush lever.

Actually, if you read through this thread, you'll find that I haven't even offered an opinion of the work. I have only defended the rights of others to do so.

As to whether we should discuss matters of art and taste when there are bigger fish to fry, there are always bigger fish to fry than art and taste. But that doesn't -- and shouldn't -- stop us from doing it.

God forbid commerce go forward in Michigan without the input of our own self-styled Martha Stewart. Some one [[Gilbert) is out there doing, which inevitably attracts chirping from those on the opposite side of the spectrum from "doing". What this really is, is self-important folks engaged in self-pleasuring.

The over-the-top nature of that design work is supposed to elicit comment. I imagine Gilbert would rather hear praise than jeers, but the public has the right to both. Sorry if that rankles you.

[Scottathew]

Oh, yes. Apples and oranges is my whole point, 48091. New Yorkers are secure in their standing as a city. It's the insecurity that creeps into our discussions of what goes on here in Detroit that I'm focusing on.

No, it's just people pointing out not to bitch about a businessman's taste when the taste is only displayed within his buildings.

As to your point, that we feel any development is fine as long as it is development, that's not true.

I have seen folks heavily criticize designs that are "campuses" or ones that create mega-blocks. Or designs that interrupt the Woodward street wall. Also, Illitch's mall seemed to be rather widely rejected as well.

So people here are picky about development, but what is laughable is when we don't like what the wall colors look like on the interior walls of the Chase Building and start to whine about it.

[swingline]

Well said , sure he bought the tigers and wings , put money into the teams , and, it is his money and he can do whatever he wants , and we / the city are grateful, HOWEVER what else has he done improve to his properties in city? He's been holding on to those ugly parking lots FOREVER and has no plans for them and wont even at least make them look half way decent .
How much would it cost to at least make ALL those lots look at least decent until he figures out what he wants to do with them, in the mean time put in a real surface lot with a real fence, instead of a gravel lot , We got that in spades .I'm just saying be a good neighbor around your properties , it does reflect on you and your neighbors . Sure he will do a lot on the property at copa, but what about all the places you own around it ?

I don't know, Dave. The Madison Lenox lot is pretty good looking. And besides, I'm sure that an announcement of the impending development on the site is coming any day now.

[Detroitnerd]

No, it's just people pointing out not to bitch about a businessman's taste when the taste is only displayed within his buildings.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, 48091. Can't get blood from a turnip.

As to your point, that we feel any development is fine as long as it is development, that's not true.

I didn't say it was. I characterized that as the "at least they built sumptin'" school of thought. And I do think there's a significant portion of metro Detroit's public that really does feel that way.

I have seen folks heavily criticize designs that are "campuses" or ones that create mega-blocks. Or designs that interrupt the Woodward street wall. Also, Illitch's mall seemed to be rather widely rejected as well.

Well, that mall turned out to be a figment, and, yes, there are reasons to oppose downtown campuses that are aesthetic [[there are also many other reasons).

So people here are picky about development, but what is laughable is when we don't like what the wall colors look like on the interior walls of the Chase Building and start to whine about it.

My point is that people need to be free to discuss matters of taste without having somebody wave a fan of money in their face. How do you get a public with a fine-tuned sense of design and who feel entitled to discuss it when this other segment of the public feels so uncomfortable they have to call people who offer their opinions "picky" people who "whine."

Anyway, we get it, 48091. All this opinionated discussion is beyond the pale. All these opinionated people and their opinions.

Which is why you offer your even more pointed opinions.

[Scottathew]

Anyway, we get it, 48091. All this opinionated discussion is beyond the pale. All these opinionated people and their opinions.

Which is why you offer your even more pointed opinions.

LOL. What do these opinionated people think this is? An online discussion board?

Have a good weekend sir!

[Detroitnerd]

LOL. What do these opinionated people think this is? An online discussion board?

The funny thing is my opinion is just that there's nothing wrong with people voicing their opinions. OK, now I'm all confused. I need a drink.

Have a good weekend sir!

You too.

[Detroitdave]

Hey Dave, what have you done to improve the city? People bitch about Illitch but at least he's spending money.

I moved here, in the city limits, I pay the highest city/auto/home, taxes in the state. I am part owner of a small gym about to open a second location in Midtown. and if I was as fortunate as Illitch,I was only saying what I would do.
This is a forum for Discussions on what can make Detroit better place for all ?no ?
I have no problem with mr. itllitch , he has a long history in the city.
I'm just questioning all the ugly surface lots. I know parking is needed , but can't anything be done about the appearance of the lots?
I believe it reflects on the area around the stadiums, maybe it's just me , maybe people are so use to ugly surface lots , that they think it's actually fine. I'm just saying expect a little more . and if I had the money you can't bet I would "dress" up the lots until I figured out what I'm going to do with them.
I'm not saying spend a huge amount of money , but come on it can't cost that much to put up a fence or landscaping ? and it would go MILES !
I never said he is a bad guy , I gave him props for owning the Tigers, and Wings, FOX. I am in no way attacking him. He does a lot for the city, However , my own personal belief is , if you have the means ,dress it up a little?
What about uncle matty maroun, at least he is spending money? no ? I will go on the record and say, I really can't find a lot to like about him. and I will bitch about him, look how he is spending his money.

In closing, I am glad Illitch is spending money, I am not bitching about Illitch, please spend much more ! All I'm saying is "hey mr illitch, I know they are your lots ,and you can do WHATEVER you want , but as a concern Detroit resident and citizen ,I have any idea for the lots you own , have you thought about ...a,b,c until you develop them ?" I know , I know ideas and opinions are like a$$holes, we've all got one and when I win the mega millions I will show you all ! LOL ;-)
It's not always about "at least he's spending money" Mr Matty was spending a lot, [[Train Depot, Bridge ect ) you wouldn't want to live anywhere near any of his properties , but hey he's spending money ?
Circus and bread folks , circus and bread .!