An arena AND a mall?

[wolverine]

Because urban malls have a close-to 100% failure rate in the U.S.

Pretty much every Midwest city has a failed 80's downtown mall, and most of these cities have better demographics than Detroit. St. Louis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Columbus, Cincy, Cleveland, Indy, all have failed downtown malls.

Even Chicago has some failed downtown malls. Chicago Place on Michigan Ave. died and was closed, and a new mall on State Street is mostly empty and being foreclosed by the bank. The Bloomingdale's-anchored mall has also had tons of problems and vacancies over the years.

For whatever reason, downtown malls rarely work in the U.S. There are a few exceptions in tourist-heavy locations, but most fail.

I generally agree with your argument but some failures were by design or because malls were too large or didnt reflect the demographic. Your assessment on Chicago is a bit off though. Water Tower has basically had waitlists for as long as I can remember. They terminated a lot of leases this year so they could charge higher rents for pricier tenants.

Northbridge is out of room and announced they bought the neighboring office building to extend 4 floors of mall for probably a 40-50% gain in retail square footage.

900 Michigan had vacancy problems? I've lived next door for 3 years and cut through the mall at minimum, once a week. Its always been 98-100% occupied

Obviously the foreclosure drove away tenants before they could complete buildouts on B37. I don't even know if they are actively looking for tenants.

[DetroitPlanner]

Now that I understand your point a little better...

Do you believe that people enjoy Campus Martius and the Riverwalk because of the fantastic, friendly security guards and their pretty vests? Or perhaps because they are actually decent urban spaces???

Put those security guards in an abandoned weed-strewn lot and tell me how popular a space it becomes in six-months time.

You could build the nicest urban space in to world but if people feel threatened its not going to get used. The world is not run by architects and landscape designers any more than it is run by thugs or security guards.

Go walk around the lower levels of Hart Plaza then walk around Campus Martius. You tell me where you feel safer. Both are parks, when Hart Plaza was built it was cutting edge in park design [[granted brutalist architecture is not my cup of tea).

[ghettopalmetto]

You could build the nicest urban space in to world but if people feel threatened its not going to get used. The world is not run by architects and landscape designers any more than it is run by thugs or security guards.

Go walk around the lower levels of Hart Plaza then walk around Campus Martius. You tell me where you feel safer. Both are parks, when Hart Plaza was built it was cutting edge in park design [[granted brutalist architecture is not my cup of tea).

So the way to make people feel safe is...create the appearance of a police state?

[DetroitPlanner]

So the way to make people feel safe is...create the appearance of a police state?

With an answer like that I doubt you've ever seen a true police state. I've been in parts of this world where there were soldiers on street corners with machine guns yet there were plenty of people on the street. I've yet to see anything even remotely like that around here.

A place where people don't feel secure is not going to function very well. Retail will not flourish, the parks and streets will not be full of folks walking around looking for leisure. Living in Detroit you should know this concept all to well.

[ghettopalmetto]

With an answer like that I doubt you've ever seen a true police state. I've been in parts of this world where there were soldiers on street corners with machine guns yet there were plenty of people on the street. I've yet to see anything even remotely like that around here.

And I'm willing to be that, in those countries, people also live in houses constructed of corrugated metal siding.

Americans aren't necessarily willing to tolerate Third World living conditions. You want security in a public park, then develop the properties adjacent to that park, and make it easy for pedestrians to walk. You don't flood the area with the Third Infantry just because someone thinks they might get looked at funny.

[Bham1982]

Water Tower has basically had waitlists for as long as I can remember. They terminated a lot of leases this year so they could charge higher rents for pricier tenants.

Water Tower has had problems too, though it's currently doing fine.

Lord & Taylor was unsuccessful and closed, and it took a long time to fill that space. They've also had some problems with circulation, because the mall has a weird layout, with tiny floorplates and too many floors. They've always had issues with vacancies on the upper floors, even today.

American Girl Place revitalized Water Tower Place. That store now brings in the tourist crowds.

Northbridge is out of room and announced they bought the neighboring office building to extend 4 floors of mall for probably a 40-50% gain in retail square footage.

I don't know Northbridge, so I'll take your word for it. Less than prime location relative to the other Michigan Ave. retail, though.

900 Michigan had vacancy problems? I've lived next door for 3 years and cut through the mall at minimum, once a week. Its always been 98-100% occupied

There are presently numerous vacancies, and one of the original anchors [[Henri Bendel) failed and was vacant for years [[now Mark Shale).

Check out the higher floors, where they stick temporary month-to-month schlock tenants, and have vacant units. They're supposed to be a luxury fashion mall, and have leases with fast food sandwich places like Potbelly.

And the Bloomingdales always seems empty. It has that same weird layout as Water Tower, with the tiny floorplates, so it's a pain to find stuff.

Obviously the foreclosure drove away tenants before they could complete buildouts on B37. I don't even know if they are actively looking for tenants.

I don't know the specifics of what's happening on State, but that mall clearly isn't working out. Poor location for upscale retail. I assume it will eventually be closed and converted to something else.

[corktownyuppie]

So the way to make people feel safe is...create the appearance of a police state?

Wait, am I understanding this right? Are you stating that Campus Martius has the appearance of a police state?

If so, then perhaps it's time for a candid discussion on public safety and civil rights. I, for one, think that if the entire city looked like Campus Martius, it would be a very fine city in which to live.

[ghettopalmetto]

Wait, am I understanding this right? Are you stating that Campus Martius has the appearance of a police state?

If so, then perhaps it's time for a candid discussion on public safety and civil rights. I, for one, think that if the entire city looked like Campus Martius, it would be a very fine city in which to live.

No, that is not what I think. I'm trying to illustrate the ridiculousness of the assertion made by DetroitPlanner that the reason people use Campus Martius Park and the Riverwalk is strictly due to the excellent mercenary security forces.

[wolverine]

Water Tower has had problems too, though it's currently doing fine.

Lord & Taylor was unsuccessful and closed, and it took a long time to fill that space. They've also had some problems with circulation, because the mall has a weird layout, with tiny floorplates and too many floors. They've always had issues with vacancies on the upper floors, even today.

American Girl Place revitalized Water Tower Place. That store now brings in the tourist crowds.



I don't know Northbridge, so I'll take your word for it. Less than prime location relative to the other Michigan Ave. retail, though.



There are presently numerous vacancies, and one of the original anchors [[Henri Bendel) failed and was vacant for years [[now Mark Shale).

Check out the higher floors, where they stick temporary month-to-month schlock tenants, and have vacant units. They're supposed to be a luxury fashion mall, and have leases with fast food sandwich places like Potbelly.

And the Bloomingdales always seems empty. It has that same weird layout as Water Tower, with the tiny floorplates, so it's a pain to find stuff.



I don't know the specifics of what's happening on State, but that mall clearly isn't working out. Poor location for upscale retail. I assume it will eventually be closed and converted to something else.

They haven't always had problems. 8 months ago Watertower was around 100% occupied. 5 months ago...75% when they refreshed their roster. Now it's back up to 100%. Stores come and go. Sometimes chains go out a business. Point is there's always a tenant waiting in line for prime mall space. Watertower owners are always winners. They are still able to charge high rents regardless of floor level.

Even as Lego left Northbridge for WT, the space was instantly filled. Went to 900 north today and there was only one closed up storefront. What's wrong with independent retailers? Doesn't the forum champion this? Don't you support this? so what if upper floors aren't first string. They prefer to build their own boutiques on rush and oak.


B37 has nothing to do with a poor retail climate. Tenants bailed when BofA took over and the developer's other projects tanked [[many in Michigan). Would you rent in a foreclosed building? The tenants that are open signed leases before foreclosure and are doing well.

Again, I don't disagree that downtown malls are a losing prospect in most places, but you are making poor assumptions based off casual observation to support your argument. No kidding a a WT place wouldn't work in Detroit. They are two different cities

[DetroitPlanner]

And I'm willing to be that, in those countries, people also live in houses constructed of corrugated metal siding.
Americans aren't necessarily willing to tolerate Third World living conditions. You want security in a public park, then develop the properties adjacent to that park, and make it easy for pedestrians to walk. You don't flood the area with the Third Infantry just because someone thinks they might get looked at funny.

Didn't know London, Washington DC or Dublin are in the 3rd World. Never seen shack there either. Keep showing your ignorance pal, it sure is fun to watch.

[ghettopalmetto]

Didn't know London, Washington DC or Dublin are in the 3rd World. Never seen shack there either. Keep showing your ignorance pal, it sure is fun to watch.

So soldiers on the street, armed with machine guns [[as you stated above) is common everyday occurrence in these cities? And this practice is used to patrol the public parks so the public feels safe using them--is that what you're implying?

You're stretching, my friend.

[canuck]

Again, I don't disagree that downtown malls are a losing prospect in most places, but you are making poor assumptions based off casual observation to support your argument. No kidding a a WT place wouldn't work in Detroit. They are two different cities

I have to disagree with this notion that Detroit can't harbor this or that. It is funny how we presume things based on past experience and personal judgment. DP mentions Dublin as a world class city with safety and attractiveness as a premise but I lived in Dublin in the eighties and I can tell you it had its load of shacks and poverty. There were whole blocks of grand 17th century Georgian houses that were left to rot. You could hardly have predicted the boom years that followed and turned it from one of the most homogenous places ethnically speaking into a relatively cosmopolitan capital city in 10 years. Likewise, your Moscows and Shanghais were very different cities 25 years ago.

Detroit is fractured, and it needs to be mended. It doesnt need to hear it can't be this or it cant be that. It just has suffered indignities that other american cities have not experienced on the same scale. The reflex of undoableness has to be transformed into a can do attitude that made the city attractive for a long time. Luckily the downtown is a strong building block for turning this negative reflex into something.

Something like what happens in other countries around the globe as we speak needs to happen in Detroit. For this to happen there needs to be a strong sense of purpose and oecumenical, fraternal undertakings. The will to bring all forces to effect this change must happen but a couple of visonary projects can help propel the city into new territory.

The problem is like the possible proliferation of casinos, if one mall does well, it may entice other developers to go overboard and do the unsustainable jive for Detroit. In Ireland, the government had programs to fund tourism infrastructure to a point where too many hotels and b&b's were built and many long established businesses had to fold.

[DetroitPlanner]

I have to disagree with this notion that Detroit can't harbor this or that. It is funny how we presume things based on past experience and personal judgment. DP mentions Dublin as a world class city with safety and attractiveness as a premise but I lived in Dublin in the eighties and I can tell you it had its load of shacks and poverty. There were whole blocks of grand 17th century Georgian houses that were left to rot. You could hardly have predicted the boom years that followed and turned it from one of the most homogenous places ethnically speaking into a relatively cosmopolitan capital city in 10 years. Likewise, your Moscows and Shanghais were very different cities 25 years ago.

I mentioned it was not a 3rd world City but if you step off of Grafton Street and towards the White House you will see that the streets are full people and the Guarda with machine guns. GeottoPlammeto's assertion that you only find heavy security in 3rd world places is unfounded. Even in NYC and Toronto you are not far from a cop on a corner. You don't have that here. In order for retail to flourish, you need to have a better level of security than is currently provided in the shopping district. People will not shop where they do no feel safe.


I never said that Dublin is some sort of Shangri-La, I know there are some very serious issues of poverty in Ireland. You do not need to go very far off of the tourist track to find them. The same is true in DC. National capitols however do have a great deal of security and the benefits are two fold: First terrorists think twice befire pulling crazy $h!t. Secondly, people feel secure. GP's assertion that security = feeling of 3rd world country is way off mark. If anything Detroit suffers from a lack of security.

[corktownyuppie]

No, that is not what I think. I'm trying to illustrate the ridiculousness of the assertion made by DetroitPlanner that the reason people use Campus Martius Park and the Riverwalk is strictly due to the excellent mercenary security forces.

Ok. I understand. Thank you for clarifying, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

I would hope that soldiers in the street be unnecessary and have been holding out hope that we won't have to resort to that. But I'm just exhausted at all the violence that's been going on years and years and years. I was thrilled to hear that the FBI/DEA/ATF is showing up in full force on the eastside...and frankly, if we had to resort to a version of martial law, that is still better than this.

I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU...but I think the security situation is so bad in Detroit that all of that is irrelevant. At some point, what good are freedoms when everyone lives in fear 24 hours a day? I think we're at that point.

Civil rights are meaningless in a place where everyone is too scared to come out of their homes.

[wolverine]

I have to disagree with this notion that Detroit can't harbor this or that. It is funny how we presume things based on past experience and personal judgment. DP mentions Dublin as a world class city with safety and attractiveness as a premise but I lived in Dublin in the eighties and I can tell you it had its load of shacks and poverty. There were whole blocks of grand 17th century Georgian houses that were left to rot. You could hardly have predicted the boom years that followed and turned it from one of the most homogenous places ethnically speaking into a relatively cosmopolitan capital city in 10 years. Likewise, your Moscows and Shanghais were very different cities 25 years ago.

Detroit is fractured, and it needs to be mended. It doesnt need to hear it can't be this or it cant be that. It just has suffered indignities that other american cities have not experienced on the same scale. The reflex of undoableness has to be transformed into a can do attitude that made the city attractive for a long time. Luckily the downtown is a strong building block for turning this negative reflex into something.

Something like what happens in other countries around the globe as we speak needs to happen in Detroit. For this to happen there needs to be a strong sense of purpose and oecumenical, fraternal undertakings. The will to bring all forces to effect this change must happen but a couple of visonary projects can help propel the city into new territory.

The problem is like the possible proliferation of casinos, if one mall does well, it may entice other developers to go overboard and do the unsustainable jive for Detroit. In Ireland, the government had programs to fund tourism infrastructure to a point where too many hotels and b&b's were built and many long established businesses had to fold.

You think Detroit could support a Water Tower Place? No way. It's 8 floors if mall. Even supporting something like Circle center is a stretch.

I said Detroit could support a mall of a certain design but Water Tower, 900 Michigan, Northbridge, and Circle Center are way out of Detroit's league.

[canuck]

You think Detroit could support a Water Tower Place? No way. It's 8 floors if mall. Even supporting something like Circle center is a stretch.

I said Detroit could support a mall of a certain design but Water Tower, 900 Michigan, Northbridge, and Circle Center are way out of Detroit's league.

Yes, it seems like a stretch but I am talking about the transformative Detroit. I would hate to believe Detroit couldnt pull together the immense resources, the great wealth of metro to stop the nonsense of the past 60 years. I think that if Detroiters can host 3 casinos and have the same GDP as Toronto, they can surely fashion a new city.

Montreal has maybe 16 major malls and department stores in its downtown connected to the underground city and has a smaller population and a smaller GDP than Detroit. It also has a shitload of street retail and malls all over town and the suburbs. Detroit needs the retail jobs the same as Chicago Atlanta and Los Angeles. It needs to get better stuff in order to get away from the violence and despair of alot of its people. The denial of opportunity is a punishment meted on detroiters, no less. The result is violence and despair, on and on.

[canuck]

In other words wolverine, the problem with Detroit metro is not that it cant support a mall, but that it wont support one. Cant or wont.

[Hermod]

In other words wolverine, the problem with Detroit metro is not that it cant support a mall, but that it wont support one. Cant or wont.

Detroit metro supports a whole lot of malls, just not in downtown.

Been to Great lakes Crossing lately?

[canuck]

Detroit metro supports a whole lot of malls, just not in downtown.

Been to Great lakes Crossing lately?

Yes, I realize that, but the idea is to favor downtown as a destination for shopping. The money is there, it might as well do some good in Detroit rather than NYC or Chicago urban retail.

[Hermod]

Yes, I realize that, but the idea is to favor downtown as a destination for shopping. The money is there, it might as well do some good in Detroit rather than NYC or Chicago urban retail.

Like I say, the consumer money in the Detroit metro area is going to area malls, not to Chicago or New York. A mall in downtown Detroit will compete with Northland, Eastland, Oakland, Fairlane, Lakeside, and GLC. Where do you think people would rather go?

[canuck]

Like I say, the consumer money in the Detroit metro area is going to area malls, not to Chicago or New York. A mall in downtown Detroit will compete with Northland, Eastland, Oakland, Fairlane, Lakeside, and GLC. Where do you think people would rather go?

In the here and now, they may favor the burban malls, but if a critical mass of office workers and DT dwellers can play catch up with other developments, there is potential for downtown. You could say the same for Cleveland, where an effort needs to happen to revivify the city core. As long as a concerted effort by developers and governments are pushed back, we wont know for sure how Detroit can retransmogrify into a bustling center which it was for a long time.

What I mean by shopping in Chicago and NyC is that folks who have the money dont think twice about jetsetting and shopping at Bloomingdale's in Manhattan, Neiman Marcus in Dallas and that this downtown experience can be broughht back to Detroit. If the city were a total write-off; Gilbert wouldnt be subjecting a staff of thousands to derelict office space. The next phase should be injecting some retail buzz in the core IMO.

[313WX]

Like I say, the consumer money in the Detroit metro area is going to area malls, not to Chicago or New York. A mall in downtown Detroit will compete with Northland, Eastland, Oakland, Fairlane, Lakeside, and GLC. Where do you think people would rather go?

You missed the point.

People "would rather go" to the malls you listed because they have no other alternatives. Just as with the argument regarding mass transit. People "would rather" drive cars because they have no other alternatives means of transportation. There's a fallacy for the type of argument you're making, I forget what it is right now.

I think people would love to have a New York or Chicago-esque shopping destination in Detroit if you were to ask them honestly and without a bias. Malls are a dime a dozen, the Michigan Avenues and times Squares of the world all provide people with a unique experience, which is why they attracts thousands if not millions of more shoppers from around the world than a cookie cutter mall like Great Lakes Crossing. With the lone exception of maybe Somerset Collections, I doubt our malls bring in anywhere near as many outside dollars as Michigan Avenue and Times Square [[or at the very leasrt, I highly doubt New Yorkers and Chicagoans spend as many retail dollars at our cookie-cutter malls sprawled across the areas as Detroiters do on Michigan Avenue or Times Square.

The question is why can't we direct our resources here to invest in a unqiue shopping destination here?

[canuck]

You missed the point.

People "would rather go" to the malls you listed because they have no other alternatives. Just as with the argument regarding mass transit. People "would rather" drive cars because they have no other alternatives means of transportation. There's a fallacy for the type of argument you're making, I forget what it is right now.

I think people would love to have a New York or Chicago-esque shopping destination in Detroit if you were to ask them honestly and without a bias. Malls are a dime a dozen, the Michigan Avenues and times Squares of the world all provide people with a unique experience, which is why they attracts thousands if not millions of more shoppers from around the world than a cookie cutter mall like Great Lakes Crossing. With the lone exception of maybe Somerset Collections, I doubt our malls bring in anywhere near as many outside dollars as Michigan Avenue and Times Square [[or at the very leasrt, I highly doubt New Yorkers and Chicagoans spend as many retail dollars at our cookie-cutter malls sprawled across the areas as Detroiters do on Michigan Avenue or Times Square.

The question is why can't we direct our resources here to invest in a unqiue shopping destination here?

That's what I think too, and while you are at it, you can rehab the hell out of a nice old block of commercial buildings and showcase the existing charm of Detroit's architectural heyday. One block at atime until every block is a shopping mall. Kidding.

[wolverine]

In other words wolverine, the problem with Detroit metro is not that it cant support a mall, but that it wont support one. Cant or wont.

No that's not the problem. The difference is the Chicago malls are supplementary to the existing retail, hotel, and office presence downtown....in a city 4 times the size of Detroit with a metro the size of the state of Michigan...all with beeline freeway and rail access to downtown. Detroit should build what it can handle first. A target with a couple stores and 2nd or 3rd story food court for office workers would be perfect.

[401don]

No that's not the problem. The difference is the Chicago malls are supplementary to the existing retail, hotel, and office presence downtown....in a city 4 times the size of Detroit with a metro the size of the state of Michigan...all with beeline freeway and rail access to downtown. Detroit should build what it can handle first. A target with a couple stores and 2nd or 3rd story food court for office workers would be perfect.

Not to mention about 50,000 downtown Chicago residents.