An arena AND a mall?

[royce]

A mall downtown with 20+ stores wouldn't work. The demographics aren't there. However, what I could see happening is a major store/apartment complex much like the one Dan Gilbert is supposedly thinking about on the old Hudson's site. For me the only major national store that makes a good fit downtown is a Target. Beyond casual clothes and electronics, Target sells everyday items such as frozen foods, milk and bread, toiletries, and snack items. These are things that people living downtown would need on a daily basis. Therefore, Target would get repeat business from people living downtown, and wouldn't need suburbanites to keep it going. If suburbanites stopping in after work before heading home want to shop there that's fine, but it wouldn't be necessary to key the store open in my opinion.

Stores like Macy's, JCPenney, Sears, or Nordstrom wouldn't get enough traffic because these are stores that you don't frequent everyday, let alone to every week or every month. An apartment complex above the Target would also guarantee repeat business. With the exception of buying a business suit, Target has most of the items I need to get through my daily life. If I worked and lived downtown and there was a Target store downtown, I probably wouldn't need a car. Also, given the fact that Target is an off-shoot of Hudson's, it would just seem like a good fit.

[DetroitPlanner]

Cincinnati opened Freedom Way, a shopping and housing street between the two new stadiums. Also along the Street is a museum for the Underground Railroad as the Ohio River was a chief welcoming spot for escaping slaves to the North.

http://www.thebankspublicpartnership...ort23FEB12.pdf

[thredmission]

Do it like partridge creek, that would be cool.

Enclosed malls like Somerset, Fairlane, and 12 Oaks are pretty much dead in the US. Only "lifestyle centers" which are basically open air malls like Partridge Creek are being built. To make it work it would need to have a mix of more "generic" stores though. Example:

MJR Theater
A generic big box such as Target or Meijer, or possibly just a food retailer like Trader Joes or Kroger.
Large sporting Goods...Dick's?
A couple chain restaurants
Mix of smaller footprint stores [[eg Apple store, Footlocker, Aldo, H&M and independently owned shops with diverse appeal)

[Bham1982]

If Taubman can build Lakeside mall in the middle of farm land in 1976 in what was then considered beyond Detroit suburbia, why can't a destination mall [[urban or otherwise) be viable in downtown or mid-town Detroit?

Because urban malls have a close-to 100% failure rate in the U.S.

Pretty much every Midwest city has a failed 80's downtown mall, and most of these cities have better demographics than Detroit. St. Louis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Columbus, Cincy, Cleveland, Indy, all have failed downtown malls.

Even Chicago has some failed downtown malls. Chicago Place on Michigan Ave. died and was closed, and a new mall on State Street is mostly empty and being foreclosed by the bank. The Bloomingdale's-anchored mall has also had tons of problems and vacancies over the years.

For whatever reason, downtown malls rarely work in the U.S. There are a few exceptions in tourist-heavy locations, but most fail.

[DetroitPlanner]

Because urban malls have a close-to 100% failure rate in the U.S.

Its not just the U.S. Canada is littered with them as well. Nearly every reasonable Downtown in Canada at one time had an Eaton Centre. The closest ones to Detroit were in Sarnia and London. Nearly all of those are now closed. The only healthy ones I've seen are in Toronto and Calgary.

Chicago is a different story all together. They built far too much retail space. Whenever a new space would open it would canibalize the older spaces; Leaving the mall anchor and a few scraps.

Even going after retailers like Target or Kmart would not be the answer. Much of the shopping trips that these store relied on are going to the internet. Eventually these stores will need to be shrunk or new uses found for the existing spaces. Best to go with mini-versions of these stores selling just the basics, such as found at Dollar General or Family Dollar.

[mikeg19]

I think the only way to really do any type up "upscale" shopping downtown is to have it like the Sommerset Collection on Merchants Row. Not that small of course, but if you tripled the floor space you'd still have a relatively small footprint compared to their traditional sized stores. Most people on here are dead on with the retailers that will work [[Target) and won't [[Nordstrom). I really do like the outdoor malls, but avoid them like the plague in wintertime. It's been mild this year, so I'm sure those malls aren't suffering as badly as in the past when it's 8 degrees out with 3 feet of snow. Maybe something like the open air setting with stores able to open up their storefronts in the warm months and close them off in the wintertime. In any case, they need to be the right stores, or it won't survive.

[Jason]

Outdoor malls are a current trend but I'm pretty sure they'll stop building them in places like Michigan. It's cold in the winter and sometimes it's too hot in the summer.

A lot of our malls, like Eastland, started out as open air malls and then they got enclosed.

[ghettopalmetto]

Outdoor malls are a current trend but I'm pretty sure they'll stop building them in places like Michigan. It's cold in the winter and sometimes it's too hot in the summer.

A lot of our malls, like Eastland, started out as open air malls and then they got enclosed.

Hogwash. If what you say is true, Jason, then there would be no such thing as a single-family home in Detroit. Everyone would live in giant self-enclosed bunkers.

New York, Boston, and Chicago are at least as cold as Detroit [[you know, the whopping 25% of the year that it's cold outside), and they all have large pedestrian-friendly shopping areas. Never mind historical precedent...I mean, it's a miracle that half of current Detroiters were ever born, since their parents and grandparents had to risk life and limb to *gasp* venture outside to shop!

[Detroitnerd]

"We need our SUVs. The winters are harsh here."

[canuck]

Its not just the U.S. Canada is littered with them as well. Nearly every reasonable Downtown in Canada at one time had an Eaton Centre. The closest ones to Detroit were in Sarnia and London. Nearly all of those are now closed. The only healthy ones I've seen are in Toronto and Calgary.

Chicago is a different story all together. They built far too much retail space. Whenever a new space would open it would canibalize the older spaces; Leaving the mall anchor and a few scraps.

Even going after retailers like Target or Kmart would not be the answer. Much of the shopping trips that these store relied on are going to the internet. Eventually these stores will need to be shrunk or new uses found for the existing spaces. Best to go with mini-versions of these stores selling just the basics, such as found at Dollar General or Family Dollar.

The biggest problem for anchor stores in the past 30 years was the competition from the boutique style specialized stores in the malls. In Canada, the Eaton company went under because they built Eaton Centers and when shops closed in the mall, the would honor the guarantee and do returns and such. Not a great idea.

I still think it is possible and desirable to have a mall in downtown Detroit because the city and suburbs are robust enough to warrant it. These kinds of projects need to be well planned and be outstanding in terms of attraction. There is not a lot of honking of horns going on in Detroit it seems. Detroiters may be programmed to accept that the city isnt worthy of praise and it is then harder to believe in the glitz of urban life. But the thing to remember without nostalgia is that Detroit knows what retail is and street animation is, it just needs to bring back the excitement of a dense core that was lost to suburban dilution.

I also think that if Detroit is to bring back retail in a big way, it might as well invent new ways of retailing. If Illitch follows Gilbert's lead, it could happen...

[Jason]

Hogwash. If what you say is true, Jason, then there would be no such thing as a single-family home in Detroit. Everyone would live in giant self-enclosed bunkers.

New York, Boston, and Chicago are at least as cold as Detroit [[you know, the whopping 25% of the year that it's cold outside), and they all have large pedestrian-friendly shopping areas. Never mind historical precedent...I mean, it's a miracle that half of current Detroiters were ever born, since their parents and grandparents had to risk life and limb to *gasp* venture outside to shop!

If that's the case then why did all shopping malls, which were built as open air malls, get enclosed within 10 years or so of being built? And why have they been built that way ever since, with the exception of the recent trend?


If you're building a mall in the first place, you might as well include the roof and keep it climate controlled. Because other than the roof and actually being comfortable, what's the difference? With one you're comfortable and when you look up you see they sky through glass, and in the other you're uncomfortable and when you look up you see the sky. I don't see any benefit to a mall being open air.

[ghettopalmetto]

If you're building a mall in the first place, you might as well include the roof and keep it climate controlled. Because other than the roof and actually being comfortable, what's the difference? With one you're comfortable and when you look up you see they sky through glass, and in the other you're uncomfortable and when you look up you see the sky. I don't see any benefit to a mall being open air.

Why does it even need to be a mall? Can we not have shops and restaurants anymore? You know--something that might resemble a city?

[canuck]

Why does it even need to be a mall? Can we not have shops and restaurants anymore? You know--something that might resemble a city?

You just touched on something real important. We have gotten used to a lot of organized mall type shopping in the past 50 years. When all of Woodward Avenue was filled with shops and people for the whole length, street front retail was the norm. Maybe by tweaking existing shops to make the best of a mall experience with open and flowing concourses can Detroit regain control of the street retail. Control is the wrong word but I guess steering is a better way of explaining it. If a block of Woodward btwn Gratiot and Grand River could be redesigned as a medium sized mall with plenty of street access, you would then have an important signal sent to developers that this kind of venue can work. Mixed-use developments with offices should be the way to go. Never turn it into a one trick pony, else it will fail.

The best example of this kind of integration I've seen is in Burlington Vermont. Not a big city but then a lot of small cities share the problem of suburban lifesucking that big cities have, Burlington started a long time ago making a case for a pedestrian mall and closed off its major commercial street to traffic 30 years ago. It has a shopping mall among all the other shops with a small street frontage and the city is alive and is better than ever. It has lost small dept stores over the years but it managed to turn around and find replacements because it always retained a profitable retail density. It has a couple of other malls in its downtown connected to office buildings. It is a small city with a big city sophistication. It is playful but doesnt feel like a theme park. It is a great model for cities across the continent.

[ghettopalmetto]

You just touched on something real important. We have gotten used to a lot of organized mall type shopping in the past 50 years. When all of Woodward Avenue was filled with shops and people for the whole length, street front retail was the norm. Maybe by tweaking existing shops to make the best of a mall experience with open and flowing concourses can Detroit regain control of the street retail. Control is the wrong word but I guess steering is a better way of explaining it. If a block of Woodward btwn Gratiot and Grand River could be redesigned as a medium sized mall with plenty of street access, you would then have an important signal sent to developers that this kind of venue can work. Mixed-use developments with offices should be the way to go. Never turn it into a one trick pony, else it will fail.

The best example of this kind of integration I've seen is in Burlington Vermont. Not a big city but then a lot of small cities share the problem of suburban lifesucking that big cities have, Burlington started a long time ago making a case for a pedestrian mall and closed off its major commercial street to traffic 30 years ago. It has a shopping mall among all the other shops with a small street frontage and the city is alive and is better than ever. It has lost small dept stores over the years but it managed to turn around and find replacements because it always retained a profitable retail density. It has a couple of other malls in its downtown connected to office buildings. It is a small city with a big city sophistication. It is playful but doesnt feel like a theme park. It is a great model for cities across the continent.

There's a *very* important distinction to make here. In a mall, even the plastic-fantastic Partridge Creek, all the property is owned by one party. That one party controls the public domain--they make the rules, decide the hours, set the rents, choose the vendor mix. Often times, this owner sticks to a tried-and-true formula, which is why you almost always see Talbot's and Jos. A. Bank in the same strip mall.

I'm talking about a town. A city. A place where the sidewalks are owned by the public, teenagers need not be accompanied by parents, "hanging-out" is permitted, and the vendor mix and architecture is decided by the owners of each building and business. You know--the kind of authentic place that Detroit used to be, and the kind of place that still exists in places like Chicago and Boston, and small cities all across America.

Instead of the photo I posted above, why not something that looks more like this? I would bet the farm that 95% of Americans would feel more comfortable here than in a singular, sterile building designed to do nothing more than suck the money out of your wallet:

[canuck]

ghettopalmetto/ Well that is what puzzles me. I can't fathom the attraction of suburban malls. I go to Fairview Mall near where I live and a bunch of strip malls but don't shop downtown as much as I used to. I am more attracted to street retail because as you point out, nothing feels forced. I do think that there needs to be some major players to effect a transformation in Detroit though. There is plenty of potential in rehabbing quality buildings to attract retail. The fear of failure has to cease, and for that to happen, people have to look and count the good things that have happened. I am not a big fan of hugeness but some urban construction has to be big. The convention reno is a good thing for the future and it seems to be well thought out. The casinos are important and the new ballpark is well done. So, the point is that Detroit is working toward more success stories, the kind that americans used to tell, the kind that people dont tire of. The more of this success comes Detroit's way, the better the city will be able to rebound. So, if some big dude comes along with a good idea, and the bucks to bring in a mall with some new ideas, I welcome it.

To succeed in this respect, it should follow these rules;

-Use a stretch of historic street frontage

-Open up a concourse but always have multiple access to the street

-Make it more colorful and warmer than any burban mall could ever do

-Provide for mixed-use with plenty of office space remaining on the upper floors

-Shuttle folks from hotels and the airports if possible.

-Find a program director to implement cultural programs connected to Detroit powerhouses such as the DIA, Moca, the opera, the symphony.

-Enable an atrium type venue for cultural events on a small scale that help promote artists and attract a punctual clientele. Danish and coffee or milk with a chamber orchestra and other stuff on sunday mornings whynot...

Etc...

[Jason]

Yeah but historically retail centers have been anchored by something. In the past it was big department stores, which are basically malls, except it's all one giant store instead of a few large stores mixed in with smaller stores.

Detroit had Hudson's, and Kerns, and people went to those places to shop and while they were there they tied in trips to the other stores or did some window shopping.

Now I'm not arguing against genuine urban retail districts, but I'm not arguing against an urban mall either. I think a medium sized urban mall can be a good way of getting the critical mass/anchoring for a shopping district.

[ghettopalmetto]

ghettopalmetto/ Well that is what puzzles me. I can't fathom the attraction of suburban malls. I go to Fairview Mall near where I live and a bunch of strip malls but don't shop downtown as much as I used to. I am more attracted to street retail because as you point out, nothing feels forced. I do think that there needs to be some major players to effect a transformation in Detroit though. There is plenty of potential in rehabbing quality buildings to attract retail. The fear of failure has to cease, and for that to happen, people have to look and count the good things that have happened. I am not a big fan of hugeness but some urban construction has to be big. The convention reno is a good thing for the future and it seems to be well thought out. The casinos are important and the new ballpark is well done. So, the point is that Detroit is working toward more success stories, the kind that americans used to tell, the kind that people dont tire of. The more of this success comes Detroit's way, the better the city will be able to rebound. So, if some big dude comes along with a good idea, and the bucks to bring in a mall with some new ideas, I welcome it.

I agree with you, Canuck. You mentioned the fear of failure, which I think is a huge obstacle in Detroit's civic psyche. It's more than ironic, considering that Detroit was, at one time, the most innovative city in the world. I think that, over time, a cancerous complacency has developed, which is evident in the types of projects undertaken: stadiums and "attractions" are counted-on as economic saviors, useable buildings are demolished for underutilized parking lots, and retail only comes in mall format.

This is a suburban mentality. Detroit cannot directly compete with its own suburbs on the same playing field, for a host of reasons beyond the scope of this thread [[This holds true for any large city, not just Detroit).

Detroit has the goods to not only survive, but succeed and thrive. It seems, however, that the cancer of suburbanization keeps the powers-that-be feeding from the same-old suburban-style trough. This stuff is not rocket science--people built cities in the same manner for thousands of years. It's only been in the past 60 that we've all-but-forgotten how. You make valid points, however, and present them in a logical order. Allow me to address them.

To succeed in this respect, it should follow these rules;

-Use a stretch of historic street frontage

-Open up a concourse but always have multiple access to the street

Thankfully, this already exists in spades in Detroit. There is no reason why Woodward Avenue [[vis-a-vis The Lodge and I-75) cannot become Detroit's Main Street once again. There is plenty of great building stock, which saves a bundle on construction costs.

The casinos, good or bad, do bring people downtown. Dan Gilbert is making several huge moves. Compuware is still there. The number of hotel rooms has increased. Capitalize on the office development, enable more residential development, and you'll have plenty of patrons downtown.

-Make it more colorful and warmer than any burban mall could ever do

As I've stated above, most shopping malls are hideously formulaic. With individual building ownership, architectural choices can be made by each owner, and storefront presence can be determined by each shop owner. The City of Detroit could adopt guidelines [[using PICTURES!) to demonstrate the kind of environment that it desires.

-Provide for mixed-use with plenty of office space remaining on the upper floors

This zoning already exists downtown, and should be extended along the major boulevards. The City of Detroit has spent recent years, it seems, trying to dictate the development game. I think they need more transparency in this regard: instead of using "preferred" developers, opening the game to all comers. Use blanket mixed-use zoning, instead of saying, "This parcel will be a restaurant, and this parcel will be a wig shop, et. al." Let the building owners decide what will be profitable for them.

-Shuttle folks from hotels and the airports if possible.

Transit!!!

-Find a program director to implement cultural programs connected to Detroit powerhouses such as the DIA, Moca, the opera, the symphony.

-Enable an atrium type venue for cultural events on a small scale that help promote artists and attract a punctual clientele. Danish and coffee or milk with a chamber orchestra and other stuff on sunday mornings whynot...

This is an interesting point. Embrace the things you will not find at a shopping mall--art galleries, buskers, food carts/trucks--anything of beauty and creativity with which a pedestrian can directly interact. For example, in the second photo I posted, there is a small park across the street from that strip. In the warmer months, dozens of people informally assemble every Friday evening for a drum circle. Hundreds of people come out just to watch. Guess where these spectators go afterward? Try to do that at a shopping mall, and you'll have security guards detaining everyone with a tambourine.

This is not technically difficult stuff. But it takes a willingness to make a tremendous paradigm shift, and summon the civic will to get things done.

[DetroitPlanner]

Why does it even need to be a mall? Can we not have shops and restaurants anymore? You know--something that might resemble a city?

Malls provide a centralized management and security. Many retailers prefer this its sort of why the riverwalk and campus martius are so popular. Without the private sector involvement there would be a lot less security at these parks.

Many downtowns are managed like malls, but it takes a rather elaborate governance to enforce things. I once had stock in a REIT that managed much of the retail in Downtown Pittsburgh and Atlanta.

[ghettopalmetto]

Malls provide a centralized management and security. Many retailers prefer this its sort of why the riverwalk and campus martius are so popular. Without the private sector involvement there would be a lot less security at these parks.

This doesn't make sense to me. What retailers are located in Campus Martius Park or on the Riverwalk? And what kind of leasing management activities do these *ahem* PUBLIC parks require?

[DetroitPlanner]

This doesn't make sense to me. What retailers are located in Campus Martius Park or on the Riverwalk? And what kind of leasing management activities do these *ahem* PUBLIC parks require?

it has nothing to do with retail but rather the management of the urban space.

[ghettopalmetto]

it has nothing to do with retail but rather the management of the urban space.

Which "urban space" are you talking about? Real estate? Sidewalks and roadways? Parks?

I presume, by your references to Campus Martius and the Riverwalk, that you're talking about the parks [[which is but one aspect of "urban space"). What kind of "management" does a park require, aside from cutting the grass and conducting other necessary maintenance? And is there any reason those tasks could not be handled by the Parks Department, as it is in just about every other city?

[Hermod]

Which "urban space" are you talking about? Real estate? Sidewalks and roadways? Parks?

I presume, by your references to Campus Martius and the Riverwalk, that you're talking about the parks [[which is but one aspect of "urban space"). What kind of "management" does a park require, aside from cutting the grass and conducting other necessary maintenance? And is there any reason those tasks could not be handled by the Parks Department, as it is in just about every other city?

Security. An urban park wold go to hell pretty quickly if the police do not regularly patrol it.

[cramerro]

Which "urban space" are you talking about? Real estate? Sidewalks and roadways? Parks?

I presume, by your references to Campus Martius and the Riverwalk, that you're talking about the parks [[which is but one aspect of "urban space"). What kind of "management" does a park require, aside from cutting the grass and conducting other necessary maintenance? And is there any reason those tasks could not be handled by the Parks Department, as it is in just about every other city?

What DP is getting at is that there are conservancy groups that manage the CM and Riverwalk 'asssets.' In a city with it's stuff together, that should be done at least in part by the city parks department. However, there is a lot of added value that these management outfits provide that allows them to really focus on making that asset great without spreading resources too thin. Direction signage and other aesthetics, cleaning, event programming, capital improvements, responding to feedback with minor changes [[e.g. hours of operation for the Riverwalk and youth restrictions).

Now one thing that DP is throwing me off with is that malls are not the only types of developments that can use this management style, as demonstrated by the examples of CM and the RW. There is nothing to say that a development more akin to downtown redevelopment couldn't take place and bring a management firm on-board to do all those things that they do in a traditional mall. This is an especially practical application if you have willing, large landowners who see common benefit and won't quickly resort to cut-throat isolationism [[Gilbert fits the bill). The DDA and/or other downtown non-profits can lead the charge here, although they need to spread thier influence around all of the downtown and this type of management firm would likely only work for a consolidated district like lower woodward or capital park.

[DetroitPlanner]

Which "urban space" are you talking about? Real estate? Sidewalks and roadways? Parks?

I presume, by your references to Campus Martius and the Riverwalk, that you're talking about the parks [[which is but one aspect of "urban space"). What kind of "management" does a park require, aside from cutting the grass and conducting other necessary maintenance? And is there any reason those tasks could not be handled by the Parks Department, as it is in just about every other city?

You know those people in the yellow and red jackets that hassle those that bother others in these areas?? A conservancy pays them to keep the area secure much the same way a mall would pay someone to be on the premises to ensure the same thing. Campus Martius and the Riverfront are not run by the parks department.

cramero, the DDA could run those sort of things, but in practice these are mostly concerned with marketing, maintenance, or construction. Unfortunately the name of the REIT I held stock in traded unter the stock ticker URB, and this was a while ago before a consortiom of european buyers bought us stockholers out. To do an internet search comes up with no useful info as there are tons of groups who find things named URB fashionable. I was able to find this link: http://cityhallcommons.com/topiclist/c211.malls.html

[ghettopalmetto]

Malls provide a centralized management and security. Many retailers prefer this its sort of why the riverwalk and campus martius are so popular. Without the private sector involvement there would be a lot less security at these parks.

Now that I understand your point a little better...

Do you believe that people enjoy Campus Martius and the Riverwalk because of the fantastic, friendly security guards and their pretty vests? Or perhaps because they are actually decent urban spaces???

Put those security guards in an abandoned weed-strewn lot and tell me how popular a space it becomes in six-months time.