An arena AND a mall?

[erikd]

It is highly likely that Mike Ilitch will soon build a new downtown arena for the Red Wings, but the idea that he is also considering the construction of a "mall" is simply ludicrous. I don't know if Babcock was instructed to put out the idea of a mall in an attempt to build public excitement and support for the construction of a new hockey arena, or if he simply misunderstood the plan that Ilitch has for the new arena and surrounding area.

Either way, there is absolutely no possibility that a suburban-style "mall" will ever be built in downtown Detroit. This has nothing to do with the viability of retail in Detroit, but rather the realities of acquiring the amount of land needed to construct this type of facility. I assume that Babcock was talking about something more akin to the RenCen Wintergarden, or perhaps the plans that Dan Gilbert has for bringing retail back to lower Woodward. It is quite possible that Mike Ilitch would incorporate a retail component into a new hockey arena in order to support Gilbert's vision of retail along Woodward, but it would not be constructed in the form of a suburban-style shopping "mall" that most Americans are accustomed to.

[canuck]

It is highly likely that Mike Ilitch will soon build a new downtown arena for the Red Wings, but the idea that he is also considering the construction of a "mall" is simply ludicrous. I don't know if Babcock was instructed to put out the idea of a mall in an attempt to build public excitement and support for the construction of a new hockey arena, or if he simply misunderstood the plan that Ilitch has for the new arena and surrounding area.

Either way, there is absolutely no possibility that a suburban-style "mall" will ever be built in downtown Detroit. This has nothing to do with the viability of retail in Detroit, but rather the realities of acquiring the amount of land needed to construct this type of facility. I assume that Babcock was talking about something more akin to the RenCen Wintergarden, or perhaps the plans that Dan Gilbert has for bringing retail back to lower Woodward. It is quite possible that Mike Ilitch would incorporate a retail component into a new hockey arena in order to support Gilbert's vision of retail along Woodward, but it would not be constructed in the form of a suburban-style shopping "mall" that most Americans are accustomed to.

There is such a thing as repurposing a bunch of buildings to a retail end. This way you dont tear down valuable historically significant architecture. You showcase the history, you dont delete it.

[GUSHI]

Do it like partridge creek, that would be cool.

[Detroitdave]

A common thread with all the successful malls mention earlier is RAIL. That is a key appointment .
For this to have ANY chance of success RAIL has to be a key part of it with a stop for the arena/"mall". Without it folks will just get right back in the cars are drive home, at least with the Rail they will check out the mall .

[canuck]

A common thread with all the successful malls mention earlier is RAIL. That is a key appointment .
For this to have ANY chance of success RAIL has to be a key part of it with a stop for the arena/"mall". Without it folks will just get right back in the cars are drive home, at least with the Rail they will check out the mall .

With an integrated transit authority for metro Detroit, incentives like punctual bus departures to and from the stadium and various park and ride stops in the burbs could be put in place. This would have a number of added benefits; attracting new riders and keeping folks in the city for entertainment and shopping before and after the games.

One can imagine that the mall could extend special offers to folks who attend games, and even have shuttle services integrated with the arena and other sports venues. I think that a lot of stuff could be done to raise the retail offer in downtown if the big players like stadiums and casinos got together on less car-centric options.

Downtown Detroit doesnt need anymore parking lots save a parking structure embedded in a project or two. The priority should be one of eliminating the blight of open lots and enhancing, reusing the built environment. Arena at JLHudson's site and a mall at Woodward at Gratiot [[Shops at Kresges, et al.)

[401don]

The Hudson's site? Even if there was enough space for an arena, which obviously there is not, Ilitch would never build an arena with no parking, no fwy access, etc. when he has spend years accumulating land, parking, etc. already.

[313WX]

Hopefully, assuming it's true, they construct the mall right, like 7 Mile & Gratiot was or Grand River and Greenfield.

[ghettopalmetto]

There is such a thing as repurposing a bunch of buildings to a retail end. This way you dont tear down valuable historically significant architecture. You showcase the history, you dont delete it.

Clearly, you are not familiar with Detroit.

[Jason]

There's very little architecture to preserve in the areas where the new arena would go.

Also, when they talk about malls I'm 90% sure they mean urban malls. The easiest example of an urban mall is the Eaton Centre in Toronto. The main corner of the mall faces Dundas Square which you can see is a pretty vibrant plaza.

Urban malls are a lot like normal malls, except they're stacked vertically instead of spread out horizontally. A lot of times there's retail which opens up onto the street on the ground floor, and the rest of the retail is in the interior. The main anti-urban qualities of the urban mall is simply that it's big. Even though you could have ground floor retail, and interesting signs and stuff like that, it's still basically a giant box, lol

Detroit's would be smaller than Toronto's. If you combined two blocks [[or had a skybridge cross the street) in the area north of foxtown you would be able to fit an urban mall there.

Depending on where you try to put it, you could build the arena without closing down any streets, or you would have to close down only one street.

[Wheels]

There's very little architecture to preserve in the areas where the new arena would go.

There was before the Super Bowl came to town.

[Jason]

The Donavan Building and the Sanders Building were demolished for the superbowl [[which I agree was wrong), but the rest of that area is empty lots, half collapsed houses, cinder block boxes [[often abandoned), and more empty lots. Except for the two abandoned hotel buildings, and I think renovating those would be important in any redevelopment plan in that area.

That's north of foxtown, west of foxtown it's parking lots and a very small handful of buildings which you would want to preserve if possible.

[Wheels]

The Donavan Building and the Sanders Building were demolished for the superbowl [[which I agree was wrong), but the rest of that area is empty lots, half collapsed houses, cinder block boxes [[often abandoned), and more empty lots. Except for the two abandoned hotel buildings, and I think renovating those would be important in any redevelopment plan in that area.

That's north of foxtown, west of foxtown it's parking lots and a very small handful of buildings which you would want to preserve if possible.

I totally agree. I was just pointing out a previous tragedy.

[casscorridor]

I'm opposed to a new arena if it further destroys the street grid. If the north of Foxtown arena happens I hope at least Henry and Temple streets and Park Ave can be preserved. I think it is very important for traffic flow of not just cars but people and bikes as well. I also hope all the historic buildings of lowe Cass can be saved.

[Detroit68]

If Taubman can build Lakeside mall in the middle of farm land in 1976 in what was then considered beyond Detroit suburbia, why can't a destination mall [[urban or otherwise) be viable in downtown or mid-town Detroit? Sure, this is taking a "build it and they will come" approach, but, if done right, this is leveraging a model that has worked elsewhere - just look at Hall Road corridor today.

[canuck]

The Hudson's site? Even if there was enough space for an arena, which obviously there is not, Ilitch would never build an arena with no parking, no fwy access, etc. when he has spend years accumulating land, parking, etc. already.

Couldnt he add a couple of levels of underground parking? Bell Centre and Air Canada in Mtl and T.O. have them. There are also multistory parking lots all around that lot. If traffic isnt such a problem downtown except on game nights, then freeway access is a moot point. I mean, it may be beneficial to the city to have the punters get a 5 minute tour of Woodward before they hit the on and off ramps. But again, as you say the footprint may indeed be too small, but I am not too sure of that; it seems to be the size of the old Forum site if you discount the area past the Detroit Public Library. You could use a stretch of Farmer street to build on or maybe elevate the structure over a bit of Grand River or something like that.

[401don]

If Taubman can build Lakeside mall in the middle of farm land in 1976 in what was then considered beyond Detroit suburbia, why can't a destination mall [[urban or otherwise) be viable in downtown or mid-town Detroit? Sure, this is taking a "build it and they will come" approach, but, if done right, this is leveraging a model that has worked elsewhere - just look at Hall Road corridor today.

There are always demographic numbers to prove sufficient housing growth is coming before any regular mall is built. I agree however the best chance is for a destination mall. An an outlet mall, a smaller version of GLC, could serve the city, inner suburban dwellers [[who have a propensity to head downtown), Windsor and the Downriver area. The elephant in the room for any downtown retail is theft.

[401don]

Couldnt he add a couple of levels of underground parking? Bell Centre and Air Canada in Mtl and T.O. have them. There are also multistory parking lots all around that lot. If traffic isnt such a problem downtown except on game nights, then freeway access is a moot point. I mean, it may be beneficial to the city to have the punters get a 5 minute tour of Woodward before they hit the on and off ramps. But again, as you say the footprint may indeed be too small, but I am not too sure of that; it seems to be the size of the old Forum site if you discount the area past the Detroit Public Library. You could use a stretch of Farmer street to build on or maybe elevate the structure over a bit of Grand River or something like that.

A new arena would need a much larger footprint than the Joe due to wide concourses, etc.
You're comparing Montreal and Toronto with tons of downtown residents and mass transit to Detroit? Not to mention Ilitch already owns most of the parking in Foxtown. Lastly, freeway access is huge in any city. How many people jump on the Gardiner after a game in Toronto?

[canuck]

Yes, the Gardiner is very close to both the arena and the Rogers Center, and there is a crush of traffic on city streets but no problem on the highway. Likewise the Ville-Marie expressway east and westbound are a block away from the Bell Centre, a suburban train terminal is connected to it, and the metro, and still the transit authority decided to add shuttle buses to the western suburbs so as to eliminate traffic on the 720 westbound.

[j to the jeremy]

I bet Babcock saw plans for a pedestrian mall with no shopping areas, probably just an open space outside said arena.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ooooh, a "destination" mall! Finally something unique for Detroit!

Get a Pottery Barn, Apple Store, J. Crew, GameStop, and Sunglass Hut, and Detroit will be...

...just like every other bland-ass place in America. I mean, look at all the excitement the New Downtown Detroit will have to offer:

[canuck]

gp; the gorgeousness is not lost on us.

What, no cigar stores?

[Detroit68]

Ooooh, a "destination" mall! Finally something unique for Detroit!

Get a Pottery Barn, Apple Store, J. Crew, GameStop, and Sunglass Hut, and Detroit will be...

...just like every other bland-ass place in America. I mean, look at all the excitement the New Downtown Detroit will have to offer:

Yeah, thank God a place like that doesn't exist in Detroit!! Wouldn't that be awful! The current shopping options are far better, right?

I think my definition of "destination" mall is different from yours. By destination mall, I refer to a place that offers a shopping experience that draws people outside the immediate 5-10 mile radious that must meet the minimal density and disposable income requirements. How many malls in the Detroit area meet this criteria? I can think of only two - Somerset and Great Lakes Crossing.

Regardless, I agree that a suburban type mall would not be ideal in downtown Detroit. Rather, I think something like Circle Center Mall in downtown Indianapolis would be an ideal model. This mall is well integrated into the downtown landscape.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yeah, thank God a place like that doesn't exist in Detroit!! Wouldn't that be awful! The current shopping options are far better, right?

I think my definition of "destination" mall is different from yours. By destination mall, I refer to a place that offers a shopping experience that draws people outside the immediate 5-10 mile radious that must meet the minimal density and disposable income requirements. How many malls in the Detroit area meet this criteria? I can think of only two - Somerset and Great Lakes Crossing.

Regardless, I agree that a suburban type mall would not be ideal in downtown Detroit. Rather, I think something like Circle Center Mall in downtown Indianapolis would be an ideal model. This mall is well integrated into the downtown landscape.

Or how about something REALLY bizarre and outlandish, like street-fronted retail shops that aren't all owned by Taubman or Simon? If only Detroit had street-level space available to accommodate such a ridiculous idea.

[Detroit68]

Or how about something REALLY bizarre and outlandish, like street-fronted retail shops that aren't all owned by Taubman or Simon? If only Detroit had street-level space available to accommodate such a ridiculous idea.

About as ridiculous as a post from you without sarcasm....

[D_Town]

If there was any shopping it needs to be near Campus martius with low/mid-end shopping options [[Macy's, JCPenneys, Express, Gap, etc) .

"Shoppes at the Riverfront" open air type concept would be more a destination if they have the right stores that Somerset doesn't have like Bloomingdales, Barneys, Hermes, Cartier, Bvlgari, etc.