An arena AND a mall?

[DetroitPlanner]

Brian, 20 years ago Mike not only bought the Fox but he moved his entire company there. By buying the Fox he freed up capital for Forbes to do work on places like the State, Elwood, and Gem. Mike also brought a Second City troupe downtown that lasted for approximately 10 years and opened restraunts in historic building. Without the Fox generating traffic, there would be no businesses along Park Avenue still open. He saved the Hotel Park Avenue, allowed for the opening of Centaur, Cliff Bells et al, by bringing people to the neighborhood to walk the streets.

20 years ago no one was moving companies into the City. Companies mean jobs and revenue for the City.

Now I certainly don't agree with everything he has done. However you have to learn to look at both the good and the bad.

[Gistok]

Brian, 20 years ago Mike not only bought the Fox but he moved his entire company there. By buying the Fox he freed up capital for Forbes to do work on places like the State, Elwood, and Gem. Mike also brought a Second City troupe downtown that lasted for approximately 10 years and opened restraunts in historic building. Without the Fox generating traffic, there would be no businesses along Park Avenue still open. He saved the Hotel Park Avenue, allowed for the opening of Centaur, Cliff Bells et al, by bringing people to the neighborhood to walk the streets.

20 years ago no one was moving companies into the City. Companies mean jobs and revenue for the City.

Now I certainly don't agree with everything he has done. However you have to learn to look at both the good and the bad.

Exactly DetroitPlanner... that area was EMPTY.... and there has been a sea of parking lots on the north end of downtown since I worked downtown back in 1980.

I too don't agree with everything he's done... the Madison-Lenox fiasco, the near fatality of the Women's Exchange Building, and that nice building along Grand River he recently purchased and had ripped down. He also let the Adams Theatre [[via "benign neglector") get to the point of having to come down.

However, he did save not only the Fox, but also in essence saved the Masonic from certain closure by paying their utility bills... otherwise today it would be a decaying scrappers dream.

My theory on him not doing anything further to "add value" to the neighborhood is just look at the Riverfront Casino fiasco... land speculation like crazy. I think that had he continued to develop the area "currently" that land prices would have gone even further thru the roof on the remaining parcels he needs for an arena and other ancillary spaces. The jury is still out on that one.

[Gistok]

I was quite involved in the Grand Circus neighborhood before and after Iltich moved in. I'll admit my memory can be fuzzy at times, but in 1987-88 [[25 years ago) when the Fox was being restored, I recall it being proposed as a "Little Italy." The only time I've heard development of an Agora is when you've posted about it here. In any case, it's a parking lot.

There was an article in the dailies about 15 years ago [[pre-Comerica Park), that the Hard Rock Cafe was going to be built at the SW corner of Woodward and Columbia. It was going to have a sort of Psychodelic looking guitar on top that would somehow "jam" whenever the Tigers hit a home run [[then still at Tiger Stadium). In that article Mike Ilitch stated that he wanted to turn the 1 block stretch of Columbia into an "Agora" [[marketplace)... with the Hard Rock Cafe as its' cornerstone. I still have the article somewhere. I can only find 1 reference to the Foxtown Hard Rock idea on the Internet, but it's embedded somewhere deep in a link to a google map view of the Foxtown area.

But as we all know that was not to be, and Hard Rock went to the Compuware Building in 2003.

[downtownguy]

@Gistock: A Hard Rock was also being bandied around in 1988, but IIRC not at the exact location you desribed. I think they were looking at the [[future) Hockeytown sight. But then they got Second City and paired it with Hockeytown in the old Hughes & Hatcher location. In the period you refer to, I no longer had a business located there, and was not as closely involved in the neighborhood.

@DetroitPlanner: Nobody can deny that Ilitch did have a postive impact on the area. It's true, he did move about 400 employees into the Fox, but that was not his entire company. He left a large part of his company in Farmington Hills. Much of that move was heaviliy subsidized by taxpayers -- a tactic he continues to this day. I liked the guy back then. I sat with him at the counter of America's Pizza Cafe and he was very gracious and supportive. But his track record since is what has soured me on him. Empty promises... empty buldings... but lots of surface parking!

[Hypestyles]

..where could a new Wings stadium be built downtown..

[Detroitnerd]

..where could a new Wings stadium be built downtown..

Between Woodward and Park, the freeway and Temple.

[thredmission]

..where could a new Wings stadium be built downtown..

The fact that Taubman's name has been mentioned stands out more than anything to me. That rough chunk of land fits perfectly for a development like this. Rather than debating the matter I played a little sim-Detroit...speculated names included.

A: New Arena [[Amway Arena)
B: Lifestyle Center [[The Mall on Woodward)- The mall I used in the overlay is Partridge Creek, a recent Taubman development. Obviously a mall in the city wouldn't feature the same stores but would be flexible to fit large big box as well as niche retail in a single complex.
C: Parking Structure and Hotel- Pictured is the Greektown hotel and parking structure.
D: Pedestrian Walkway- Connects to Foxtown area
E: Surface Lots
F: Light Rail Stop
Yellow line-Main road through property [[currently Sibley)

[mikeg19]

I'm a Tiger Stadium > Comerica Park guy but I can't imagine anyone thinking the Joe has character. It's the definition of lame 70's cookie cutter arenas and stadiums. Only Detroit would construct a building with no windows on the damn river [[and consider the same with the casinos).

How could the building not have character? They've won the Stanley Cup there twice, countless milestone games have been played in the building by some of the greatest players ever to touch the ice, and the energy that pulses through the place during a playoff game is unreal. You know as an opponent you're in for a hell of a night just walking in the door. I think you're thinking aesthetics. I'm talking aura, character. Trust me, I think we all know the place is a shithole, but so was Tiger Stadium, and we all loved going there.

[mikeg19]

According to a few things I've heard, it seems like a big hangup on this "mall" idea is that the city council and other players downtown want the mall to be "African American themed and outfitted." You know Taubman isn't gonna buy into that. If you're trying to draw in suburbanites [[aka white people who are already apprehensive about entering the city) do you really think they want to visit a mall before a game that is catered to the African American population? Hell no.

[Gistok]

How could the building not have character? They've won the Stanley Cup there twice, countless milestone games have been played in the building by some of the greatest players ever to touch the ice, and the energy that pulses through the place during a playoff game is unreal. You know as an opponent you're in for a hell of a night just walking in the door. I think you're thinking aesthetics. I'm talking aura, character. Trust me, I think we all know the place is a shithole, but so was Tiger Stadium, and we all loved going there.

The building does have character.... all the charm of a Pole Barn. I don't care how many Stanley Cups were won there, it's not old Olympia, so the connection is just not the same. It is located in an awkward part of the city, and I don't think [[unlike TIger Stadium) that many people will shed a tear when [[and not IF) it comes down for future Cobo expansion. It's ugly and its' site lines are not something that people wax poetically about like they do old Olympia Stadium.

Sorry, but I think you're in the minority. The majority of folks will be glad to have the Red Wings play in a newer nicer arena near Foxtown.

[Detroitnerd]

According to a few things I've heard, it seems like a big hangup on this "mall" idea is that the city council and other players downtown want the mall to be "African American themed and outfitted." You know Taubman isn't gonna buy into that. If you're trying to draw in suburbanites [[aka white people who are already apprehensive about entering the city) do you really think they want to visit a mall before a game that is catered to the African American population? Hell no.

Well, use thredmission's rendering and have D [[Pedestrian Walkway- Connects to Foxtown area) be an insulated, heated bridge where vendors can sell daishikis and shea butter. Just like Eastern Market, right?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I would love to see a "mall" component to the arena project. Not that I want to see a suburban-stye big building in an ocean of parking. But I think we should open our minds to what a mall can be. A development that is integrated to the streetscape of Woodward, with some on site parking, but also within walking distance of other parking, a stops for light rail and more than one busline could be great. To be successful it would need a strong dose of "entertainment" stores, including a REAL movie theatre [[sorry, RenCen), bowling alley, billiards hall, bars & restaurants. It has to create a different experience than a suburban mall. Done well [[and I think Taubman would do it well), this could really work. I do hope that the would be arena and would be mall are separate buildings, to allow for the arena to look like a really awesome arena.

All the love and support I would give these projects, though, does not extend to spending taxpayer money on it. Even if we had the money, it would be wrong. And we don't have the money.

[Wheels]

According to a few things I've heard, it seems like a big hangup on this "mall" idea is that the city council and other players downtown want the mall to be "African American themed and outfitted." You know Taubman isn't gonna buy into that. If you're trying to draw in suburbanites [[aka white people who are already apprehensive about entering the city) do you really think they want to visit a mall before a game that is catered to the African American population? Hell no.

That sounds like it should be named Woodward Bazzar.

[mikeg19]

The building does have character.... all the charm of a Pole Barn. I don't care how many Stanley Cups were won there, it's not old Olympia, so the connection is just not the same. It is located in an awkward part of the city, and I don't think [[unlike TIger Stadium) that many people will shed a tear when [[and not IF) it comes down for future Cobo expansion. It's ugly and its' site lines are not something that people wax poetically about like they do old Olympia Stadium. Sorry, but I think you're in the minority. The majority of folks will be glad to have the Red Wings play in a newer nicer arena near Foxtown.

I never said I didn't want a new arena, because as a matter of fact I do. Trust me, I won't be shedding a tear when they rip it down. I really don't get the "site line" argument when it comes to a hockey arena. It's a bowl with ice in the middle. Not sure how you can have bed site lines. And I wasn't alive when Olympia was around, so I have no comparison. I'm just saying I don't mind going to the Joe, whereas some people refuse to go to a hockey game because of it, which I think is insanity.

[antongast]

Sorry, but I think you're in the minority. The majority of folks will be glad to have the Red Wings play in a newer nicer arena near Foxtown.

This is likely true of the majority of folks who give some nonzero quantity of shits about attending professional sporting events, but I don't know if that's generalizable to the population as a whole. Last I checked, the rest of us pay taxes too.

[Gistok]

This is likely true of the majority of folks who give some nonzero quantity of shits about attending professional sporting events, but I don't know if that's generalizable to the population as a whole. Last I checked, the rest of us pay taxes too.

I guess subtlety is not in your vernacular.

The majority of folks on his forum would like a new arena. However, the devil is in the details. No point in arguing about things we aren't privy to...we''ll just have to wait and see... and then find out how all the taxpayers feel [[they will let their politicians know).

For Mikeg19 .. I've only been to 2 hockey games at Olympia and 2 at the Joe. At Olympia you were literally right over the ice.... much steeper seating, so you were much closer to the action than at the Joe.

[antongast]

I guess subtlety is not in your vernacular.

I tried some at a buffet one time, but it wasn't really to my liking.

[Detroitdave]

According to a few things I've heard, it seems like a big hangup on this "mall" idea is that the city council and other players downtown want the mall to be "African American themed and outfitted." You know Taubman isn't gonna buy into that. If you're trying to draw in suburbanites [[aka white people who are already apprehensive about entering the city) do you really think they want to visit a mall before a game that is catered to the African American population? Hell no.

I hope that's not the case .I really hope the city council is not serious about wanting a mall with an African American theme. Have they not been to Northland , Eastland, do you really want to alienate people? I know of no African American themed mall that is a success . If some one does I would love to see it . I think this is another misguided "idea" by city council , it's speaks volumes about the mindset of the people trying to run the city ... sad , they should be reaching out to ANYONE with good a idea and a history of successful mall building.
The city council can barely run the city, let alone dictate what type of mall they would like to see.

[DetroitPlanner]

The fact that Taubman's name has been mentioned stands out more than anything to me. That rough chunk of land fits perfectly for a development like this. Rather than debating the matter I played a little sim-Detroit...speculated names included.

A: New Arena [[Amway Arena)
B: Lifestyle Center [[The Mall on Woodward)- The mall I used in the overlay is Partridge Creek, a recent Taubman development. Obviously a mall in the city wouldn't feature the same stores but would be flexible to fit large big box as well as niche retail in a single complex.
C: Parking Structure and Hotel- Pictured is the Greektown hotel and parking structure.
D: Pedestrian Walkway- Connects to Foxtown area
E: Surface Lots
F: Light Rail Stop
Yellow line-Main road through property [[currently Sibley)

You would never design a mall in an urban area that has all of that parking surrounding it. It would take up too much land and you could not control it in a way that would separate shoppers from patrons [[who would most likely be charged a much higher parking rate and be onsite for longer periods). A better version is found in Anahiem, a few blocks from Disneyland [[which by the way has its own mall too called Downtown Disney). The anahiem mall is pulled right up to the street and serves the same function as a shopping arcade does found in other cities [[Cleveland, Ann Arbor).
http://www.anaheimgardenwalk.com/

Downtown Disney was created to link its Hotels, Amusement Parks, and parking structures.
http://disneyland.disney.go.com/downtown-disney/

[ghettopalmetto]

A new mall downtown would be fantastic, because it would mean that Detroit is only 25 years behind the rest of the country instead of 50 years.

If at first you don't succeed, steal ideas that have already been tried [[and failed) elsewhere.

[rex]

not a terrible idea. I just dont know how successful a mall downtown will be. Inner ring suburban malls are struggling. Pontiac mall died. Cars parked in the area where I think they are planning this are vulnerable. Are there enough people living downtown [[with disposable income) to support this? People in the suburbs probably won't shop much down there. Not with the other malls around that are convenient for them.

[canuck]

It is possible to design a mall that would be unavoidable to the suburban or city dweller that works or visits for a day. The idea of connectivity in the arena /mall deal is what matters. As long as the mall bit doesnt end up a massive thing closed from the street. There is a downtown mall in San Diego that is well integrated, has a nice post-modernist playfulness and is I think pretty successful after many years in operation; The Westfield-Horton Plaza. I remember visiting it in 1990 and it had plenty of charm because it was designed by talented folks with an open minded attitude to what retail environments could be.

I would commandeer the whole lot of buildings on the opposite side of Woodward where the arena would sit at the JLHudson block and play with the existing architecture, and I mean play with it, have fun. Detroit needs some attention grabbing locales that are open to the street, not just casinos. I think the mall on several floors of the woodward block including the shops at Kresges building could have offices on their top floors so that the place is not too big in retail.

I disagree with the idea that urban malls are doomed to failure. Almost every big office building in downtown Montreal is connected to the metro, has a food court and some shops, and the streets are filled with shops around these plazas. Some are mre successful than others, some are pitiful.

I dont know if the footprint of the Hudsons block is too small for the arena, any idea?

[sbs0909]

I think Detroit should build a shopping center similar to the new one that's being redone in downtown Salt Lake. There's a light rail that runs through downtown that connects everything. They built this gorgeous new grocery store along with tons of new shopping, business offices, restauraunts, apartments and it's all right next to the arena where the Utah Jazz play.

Here's the link to check it out... http://www.downtownrising.com/index....k-introduction

The only bad thing is that the Mormons own it all so there is no night life incorporated into it.

[corktownyuppie]

According to a few things I've heard, it seems like a big hangup on this "mall" idea is that the city council and other players downtown want the mall to be "African American themed and outfitted." You know Taubman isn't gonna buy into that. If you're trying to draw in suburbanites [[aka white people who are already apprehensive about entering the city) do you really think they want to visit a mall before a game that is catered to the African American population? Hell no.

First, until I see that rumor sourced and documented, I prefer to view it as total speculation.

Second, a desire for to have an African-American themed mall attached to what is arguably the whitest major sport other than, perhaps, NASCAR...seems to be totally absurd.

Lastly, the "players" downtown as well as the city council are much more concerned -- IMHO -- about money and economic development more than pleasing some special interests. Even if the city made a deal to forego property taxes for 10 years on such a project, the jobs and the commercial activity that would spin off would be well worth it...and of much greater benefit to the City of Detroit general operating fund, which serves a 90% black constituency.

So, I dunno...I find the idea that the City Council is holding up a major project in hopes of securing a black-themed mall just seems a little incredulous.

[Gistok]

First, until I see that rumor sourced and documented, I prefer to view it as total speculation.

Second, a desire for to have an African-American themed mall attached to what is arguably the whitest major sport other than, perhaps, NASCAR...seems to be totally absurd.

Lastly, the "players" downtown as well as the city council are much more concerned -- IMHO -- about money and economic development more than pleasing some special interests. Even if the city made a deal to forego property taxes for 10 years on such a project, the jobs and the commercial activity that would spin off would be well worth it...and of much greater benefit to the City of Detroit general operating fund, which serves a 90% black constituency.

So, I dunno...I find the idea that the City Council is holding up a major project in hopes of securing a black-themed mall just seems a little incredulous.

I agree with you 100%... Back when Conyers, Collins, Reeves.... were around it would seem more plausible. I think that besides Watson [[even Kenyatta is reasonable by comparison)... the remainder of the council is less meddling on such issues.