An arena AND a mall?

[drjeff]

Ilitch clearly looked at Tiger Stadium and thought, "Why the fuck should anybody be able to make money off of ME? I want to own the parking. I want to own the restaurants. I want to own the bars. I want to own everything!"

Of course, while deciding to do everything he could to turn his stadium into a self-contained mall where he made all the money, he had to have generous support from the taxpayers to make it happen.

Do you remember that? What was the reason? SKYBOXES! WE NEED SKYBOXES!

I miss TS as much as anyone, but to be fair to Ilitch, he spent a hell of a lot more of his own money building Comerica Park than just about any other owner in MLB has for a new stadium. As I recall he had close to $200 million in personal loans for the construction.

[Detroitnerd]

I miss TS as much as anyone, but to be fair to Ilitch, he spent a hell of a lot more of his own money building Comerica Park than just about any other owner in MLB has for a new stadium. As I recall he had close to $200 million in personal loans for the construction.

The people were swindled when they used tax monies on the stadium AT ALL.

Being fair to Ilitch? That would mean everybody being able to kick him right in the nuts. With steel-toe boots. Twice.

[cramerro]

The people were swindled when they used tax monies on the stadium AT ALL.

Being fair to Ilitch? That would mean everybody being able to kick him right in the nuts. With steel-toe boots. Twice.

You're failing to separate two distinct issues... public funding for stadiums versus Mr Illitch being really rich.

Public funding is certainly up for debate, and is questionable in these times. So is tax breaks for anyone... the whole idea of one community or state fighting against another in a 'race to the bottom' to see who can hold the presser where they're cutting the ribbon of an $XXX Million project with X,XXX short-term construction jobs that they can add to thier tally on their re-election website. That's what the whole public funding 'barrel' is based on, moreso in other areas where the teams aren't owned by hometown boys like Illitch or Mr. D. "You don't pay for the stadium? We'll move to Ideal City, Southern State, USA."

At least he puts his money where his mouth is, repeatedly. As drjeff says, he paid a lot more toward CoPa than any other MLB owner I've heard of... more than half was money he had to come up with. I think the number was in the $185 Million range. He's put at least a good sum of his personal riches on the line more than once for a City who can't say that about many other people in the last 40 years.

[Detroitnerd]

You're failing to separate two distinct issues... public funding for stadiums versus Mr Illitch being really rich.

Public funding is certainly up for debate, and is questionable in these times. So is tax breaks for anyone... the whole idea of one community or state fighting against another in a 'race to the bottom' to see who can hold the presser where they're cutting the ribbon of an $XXX Million project with X,XXX short-term construction jobs that they can add to thier tally on their re-election website. That's what the whole public funding 'barrel' is based on, moreso in other areas where the teams aren't owned by hometown boys like Illitch or Mr. D. "You don't pay for the stadium? We'll move to Ideal City, Southern State, USA."

At least he puts his money where his mouth is, repeatedly. As drjeff says, he paid a lot more toward CoPa than any other MLB owner I've heard of... more than half was money he had to come up with. I think the number was in the $185 Million range. He's put at least a good sum of his personal riches on the line more than once for a City who can't say that about many other people in the last 40 years.

I think you fail to see how businessmen operate. They spend hundreds of millions because they fully intend to MAKE hundreds of millions. And somebody like Ilitch is damn sure going to make certain that the whole place is set up in a way to vacuum every penny he can out of the people who pass in and out of his stadium. And not only that, but the tickets should be cheaper -- after all, you already helped pay for it.

I can't think of any other business where a business owner gets the public to pay for his capital costs, and then is roundly thanks by brown-nosing apologists who say, "Well, at least he put up a lot of his money!" He should have put it all up or found investors, but then investors actually want profits, where the public just gets ... what was it? SKYBOXES!

[Detroitnerd]

And, frankly, he doesn't seem to have put a penny into the Fox in 25 years.

And last night I heard he bought the Comet Bar and is shutting it down. Thanks a lot, dick.

[Bham1982]

As drjeff says, he paid a lot more toward CoPa than any other MLB owner I've heard of... more than half was money he had to come up with. I think the number was in the $185 Million range.

I don't think it's particularly unusual for MLB owners [[most of whom are billionaires or almost-billionaires) to pay for a large share or even 100% of new stadia.

Just offhand, SF Giants, Philadephia Phillies, NY Yankees, NY Mets paid for 100% of their new parks, though the municipalities were all involved in paying for benefitical nearby projects [[parking garages, train stations, or other amenities). Granted, these are bigger cities, but it's hardly unprecedented.

It isn't just the big markets.The KC Royals put $250 million of their own money towards a recent renovation, for example.

So I think Illitch deserves some credit for not being a total slimeball like some other professional sports owners, but nor should he be canonized either. Let's see if he offers to pay 100% of a new or renovated hockey arena.

[Gistok]

DN,

A big chunk of the non-Ilitch money came from oil and gas leases on state land, IIRC, and other non-pocketbook funding source. Ditto for Ford Field.

I think that had Ilitch not moved to Comerica Park... the Lions would likely still be playing at the Silverdome.

I dislike a lot of what they've done... but as Cramerro said... Detroit came of pretty cheap compared to other cities in the Stadium game...

[401don]

I thought the timing of the Fielder deal was especially interesting, knowing he was probably already groveling to gov't for a new arena behind the scenes. It's very hard to cry for cash when you're spending 209 million on one ballplayer, especially when you're expected to win your division without him. I guess it shows winning a World Series is more important to Ilitch right now since, at his age, he can't afford to worry about how one affects the other.

[Jason]

I think a mall would be good for retail downtown.

Usually when people go shopping they go to places with a lot of stores, or they go to a specific store and do other shopping nearby while they're out.

Right now Detroit only has a little bit of retail to support office workers, and some boutiques for hipsters. It's not a place to go to to do shopping.

Now if there was a mall with some big, popular anchors, with some popular smaller stores as well, all of a sudden it's a place where people might actually go to do their shopping. And if they're out shopping at the mall for X, maybe they'll go across the street to look for Y while they're at it.

It wouldn't compete with any hipster boutiques because those are really specific niche things, although they might benefit from being nearby, since people might not make a trip specifically to go there but might stop at "that place they heard of" while they're down there.

It would definitely compete with other malls and big retail in Detroit and the inner ring suburbs, but those places are sure to fail soon anyway, so why not trade them in for something more permanent?


Also, I don't think anyone can wish Hudson's and Kerns was still around and rally against a downtown mall at the same time.

[Occurrence]

I heard about this a couple years ago, why is it just now in the news?

I'm going to bet whatever new arena is built is going to be a corporate cutter arena and NOT a retro throwback of the Olympia.

[Gistok]

I always thought the Statler block would make a great spot for a vertical mall... with a catwalk going over to the 4 story [[future) Whitney Bldg. lobby shops. Of course... urban vertical malls don't seem to do well at all.

Is Chicago's vertical mall Water Tower Place on the Magnificent Mile still having troubles?

[Detroitdave]

I thought the timing of the Fielder deal was especially interesting, knowing he was probably already groveling to gov't for a new arena behind the scenes. It's very hard to cry for cash when you're spending 209 million on one ballplayer, especially when you're expected to win your division without him. I guess it shows winning a World Series is more important to Ilitch right now since, at his age, he can't afford to worry about how one affects the other.

Like 401 don said if he can afford to pay one player 209 MILLION dollars he can pay for the entire "mall/ arena" his self, with little or no public money. The city/county is broke we all know that .
He needs to get off his butt about all those UGLY surface parking lots, it looks horrible driving into the city on Woodward AMERICAS main street . If they do build any type of "Mall" it needs to have serious "controlled" access, because we all know Detroit has "unique" challenges , lets just really call like it is , because if that wasn't the case we would already have plenty of shopping .

I'm sure they are doing their research , looking for stores that will appeal to the folks coming down for games, because we know most folks aren't coming downtown to shop at dollar stores and target, they already have that where they live.It's a delicate balance , give the people in the city a reason to go on off game days, but make it an event for the folks making the trek into the city also .
Make it so it ties into the Fox like this , maybe a smaller version of one of these ? ,http://lalive.com/, and http://www.citywalkhollywood.com/ , this seems to be the way things are going , open air.
Seeing that downtown hotels are filling up ,if you build a new stadium build a hotel with it and you can get the rev from the hotel to help on cost and folks can stay the night right at the stadium, and it's still close to the casinos . But like I said make it a semi controlled environment and it could work.

[SteveJ]

I thought it was in bad taste to have the coach out there lobbying for a stadium. This certainly sounds like Tom Wilson is behind this. I don't care if they build a new stadium but not with taxpayers dollars. We are all hurting and the last thing we need is more free money for the rich.

[canuck]

I would build me a stadium on the JL Hudson's site, make a funky old mall out of the colorful well designed buildings on the opposite side of Woodward. Make it so people can easily access it from an underground passageway on game nights. Using the architectural heritage of the city, and revivifying the streets around the mall and stadium.

[Wheels]

One common theme whenever discussing downtown development are parking lots. It will continue to plague big time development in any dense area you are trying to draw large crowds into.

When the area was cleared for the current stadiums the first thing that should have happened is the should have built underground parking. Now they are clearing large areas for a new development [[Stadium Mall whatever) Underground parking should be going in first. That or high rise structures are the only way to avoid all of the surface lots.

Having said all that the other way to fix the problem would be mass transit that covered the city and the suburbs, and we all know how that is going.

[softailrider]

Waxing poetic about Tiger Stadium's urban fabric is not really respecting the facts and history and what's left of that area.

Yes, the field was there forever, and all around it were vibrant neighborhoods and storefronts. Bars, a cab company, some auto shops, some bars, a few restaurants, and a lumberyard. Once upon a time, in an era far, far away.

Fast forward the film reel to the 'hay day [[sp?)' of "Tiger Stadium" that we are familiar with. The late 60's... 70's... 80's of course. The stadium took the urban fabric and paved over its every defenseless corner. Parking lots were more valuable to landlords than some great homes in a great neighborhood. A giant double-freeway was dozed through, complete with what seems like a mile-long pedestrian bridge -- the only connection between the north and south parts of what was A great neighborhood. Signage for parking is like vomit all over every open lot, building, and street corner. And so it was fitting when one of the few vestiges of that fabric, the stadium itself, was leveled and now fits right in with the vacant lot tundra that took over the area.

Corktown was and in many ways is a great community in the city. Tiger Stadium was one of the greatest baseball facilities in history. But other than the economic spin-off of parking lot revenues and game-day bars, the stadium did the neighborhood in just as much if not more than many of the other presiding factors in the city's decline.

What a pessimistic point of view, I know. But this thread evoking 'urban neighborhood anchor' tags for Tiger Stadium coupled with a half hour I spent driving around there a few weeks back has really shed some new light on that area for me.

I read all 5 paragraphs three times. It's just not resonating with me.

[Gistok]

I read all 5 paragraphs three times. It's just not resonating with me.

I'll give you the "abridged" edition.... Tiger Stadium was good for Corktown back before I-75 came thru, and before the trolley lines were removed.

After that, the neighborhood was split... and homes were worth more as empty lots to cram cars into their weed strewn unlandscaped spaces 81 times a year for absentee landlords raking in the bucks....

[mikeg19]

On one issue, I believe that the money involved with Comerica Park that was from the state was for infrastructure [[roads, sewers, etc). Can someone confirm that?

And as for this pipe dream of the new stadium, if Illitch wants it, he's gonna have to pay for the whole damn thing. No way will [[or should) the city be pitching in for a stadium when they can't even keep street lights on or protect its citizens. As much as I'd like to see a new stadium development, it ain't gonna be anytime soon. Besides, it'll probably be just like every other new stadium in the United States: sterile, no character, seats 2 miles from the action, and $9 beer. I'd rather they take 2 years and completely renovate The Joe. Knock out the riverfront wall and put in a glass curtain to open it up. More bathrooms, better seats, no more stairway of death outside. The place might be old and falling apart, but it's got more character then any new building I've been in. Walking into Ford field or Comerica and it feels like I'm watching a game in a hospital.

[Enduro]

I'm a Tiger Stadium > Comerica Park guy but I can't imagine anyone thinking the Joe has character. It's the definition of lame 70's cookie cutter arenas and stadiums. Only Detroit would construct a building with no windows on the damn river [[and consider the same with the casinos). Cobo wants to expand eventually which is probably Illitch's best bargaining chip [[if he got the Pistons he could use the Palace as leverage) and he already has a sweetheart deal at the Joe so I'd be okay with a deal that didn't put the city or county any further in the hole.

Remember, it's a long shot but Davidson was originally talking about replacing the Palace around this time and with things shifting back towards the city and the Pistons crappy attendance numbers Gores might be willing to entertain a move. Again, that's likely a pipe dream but with our dwindling population they can't keep competing for fans on the same night forever. LA, NY and almost every other town have one arena for 2 teams [[sometimes 3 like in LA).

I think we're at a tipping point where it's time to get this done. We could have the Broderick, Whitney, new Olympia [[or whatever) and Gilbert's stuff all coming on-line around the same time. This building would command some big concerts, an NHL All-Star Game, an NBA All-Star game [[yea, I know, I'm smoking crack) and would make Fox Town busy year-round, not just in summer and fall.

[softailrider]

I'll give you the "abridged" edition.... Tiger Stadium was good for Corktown back before I-75 came thru, and before the trolley lines were removed.

After that, the neighborhood was split... and homes were worth more as empty lots to cram cars into their weed strewn unlandscaped spaces 81 times a year for absentee landlords raking in the bucks....

I always remember the expressway being there, trolleys were before my time. We used to park on one of those side streets near the stadium, in the yard of a house where the homeowner lived. I'm almost sure it wasn't a rented house.The vehicles were watched, we walked to the park, there was never a hint of a problem. Do I think that area was better back then [[ 60's 70's 80's and 90's ) then it is now? Hell yes I do.

[iheartthed]

I was quite involved in the Grand Circus neighborhood before and after Iltich moved in. I'll admit my memory can be fuzzy at times, but in 1987-88 [[25 years ago) when the Fox was being restored, I recall it being proposed as a "Little Italy." The only time I've heard development of an Agora is when you've posted about it here. In any case, it's a parking lot.

End of thread.

[mallory]

I don't know if I really want to see a mall. I want to see us concentrate more on bringing retail to Woodward.

Ditto that. Revitalizing the Woodward corridor is the real key to bringing downtown back. Plus, why the mad rush to leave the Joe? I'd rather see a new arena for the Pistons. Whose brain fart was it to build the Palace way out in boofoo in the first place? DUMB!

[Wheels]

Ditto that. Revitalizing the Woodward corridor is the real key to bringing downtown back. Plus, why the mad rush to leave the Joe? I'd rather see a new arena for the Pistons. Whose brain fart was it to build the Palace way out in boofoo in the first place? DUMB!

Follow the money.

[bartock]

I'm a Tiger Stadium > Comerica Park guy but I can't imagine anyone thinking the Joe has character. It's the definition of lame 70's cookie cutter arenas and stadiums. Only Detroit would construct a building with no windows on the damn river [[and consider the same with the casinos). Cobo wants to expand eventually which is probably Illitch's best bargaining chip [[if he got the Pistons he could use the Palace as leverage) and he already has a sweetheart deal at the Joe so I'd be okay with a deal that didn't put the city or county any further in the hole.

Remember, it's a long shot but Davidson was originally talking about replacing the Palace around this time and with things shifting back towards the city and the Pistons crappy attendance numbers Gores might be willing to entertain a move. Again, that's likely a pipe dream but with our dwindling population they can't keep competing for fans on the same night forever. LA, NY and almost every other town have one arena for 2 teams [[sometimes 3 like in LA).

I think we're at a tipping point where it's time to get this done. We could have the Broderick, Whitney, new Olympia [[or whatever) and Gilbert's stuff all coming on-line around the same time. This building would command some big concerts, an NHL All-Star Game, an NBA All-Star game [[yea, I know, I'm smoking crack) and would make Fox Town busy year-round, not just in summer and fall.

I've forgotten how many years in a row that the Pistons sold out the Palace, but it was a lot. They've had a crappy product for three years and the NBA went on strike. Having recent bad attendance numbers means nothing...it would be shocking if their attendance was decent.

Gores bought much more than the Pistons, and the Palace is paid for and still a top-notch venue, even after 20+ years.

Despite the small percentage dip with the last census, I would call the population of the area stagnant for 30 years, not dwindling.

JLA, for as much as so many hate it, has no bad sight lines. None. As strictly a place to watch hockey, it doesn't really get any better, and it has league-known nuances that make it unique [[loose boards, etc.)

[Brian1979]

All I've got to say about Mike Ilitch is that he is nothing but a slumlord, he's full of B.S. and doesn't do anything with any of his properties. Why do people view this guy as some kind of hero just because he saved the Fox? That was over 20 years ago, he has done almost next to nothing for downtown Detroit since, other than maybe Comerica Park this guy has done nothing but demolish buildings for surface parking lots and let abandoned buildings rot. Ilitch is a joke and people view him as some kind of hero, he has ruined parts of downtown Detroit.

I would like to see another downtown area in America with as many surface parking lots as Detroit. And the fact that there is no mass transit in Detroit further weakens downtown. Detroit is a disfunctional city and will continue to be one until the morons that are currently in office are gone. Why is Dave Bing the mayor of Detroit in the first place? I personally think he's one of the worst mayor's in the country. So what if he's a businessman? The guy has no clue on how to run a city. This is why Detroit is going nowheres, people like Mike Ilitch and Dave Bing aren't taking this city anywheres.

As far as a mall in Detroit, that's a very stupid idea.