L. Brooks: "I Don't Want to End Sprawl. I Love it."

[Detroitnerd]

Well, the notion that the government should control all the roadways is nothing more than conventional wisdom gone wrong...

BrushStart's Libertarian [[or construably anarchist) point of view on privatizing roads is a bit extreme, yes. In the old days, say, the 19th century, a lot of the functions we think of as public would be private. Especially pre-New Deal. [[That's why, for instance, the Ambassador Bridge is private, as it was built before the grand era of public works. Or why Detroit's many streetcar companies were private -- at least before Mayor Pingree.) And governments did scant work on streets, which were often mud or manure. But even before the 1930s, even before the 1900s, governments did spend money to improve streets, pounding in cedar, brick, cobblestone or granite, for instance. Property values would improve, as residents didn't have mud-caked boots and carts didn't clatter along streets as noisily when they were cedar, for instance.

Anyway, I doubt Libertarians would be able to roll back the government's role in such endeavors. Individual citizens and large companies rely too much on government providing infrastructure, and it helps prime the economic pump to have good physical plant. And yet, there is a good point to all this blue-sky thinking: America, at its best, is a good mix of public and private economics, neither a laissez-faire capitalist economy nor a top-down Soviet-style planned economy, but one with the best features of both. And a lot of people are right at this time to think we've lost balance in that mix. Let the debate rage on.

[antongast]

I think your fear about compatibility of private infrastructures is overestimated. Private owners would be best served if their infrastructure was seamless. George and Bill wouldn't be in business very long if people couldn't traverse both their roads seamlessly with ease.

So what happens if Bill does go out of business? What if my street gets bought by some fuckup like Bob Nardelli or Rick Wagoner who runs it into the ground? I live on his street. I still have to use it every time I leave home. It's not like I can switch to a competitor's street, unless someone else builds a street that runs directly in front of my house/apartment building, in which case that street would be extra and unnecessary and would probably fuck up part of my neighborhood.

[Detroitnerd]

Where I part ways with a lot of Libertarians is that, at its bottom, it is a movement of ideological purity, not a movement that looks at the way life is and says, "We need some rules here, some taxes here, some punishments here."

For instance, the point that governments cause duplication and private entities do not, that was pretty well disproved by the railroad empires of the 19th century, which duplicated many important routes, wasted a lot of materials and capital doing so, and eventually all went pretty much bankrupt in the end. We like to think of today's business managers as dispassionate experts, but we forget that the market is a volatile place, filled with the shouts of the victors and the groans of the fallen.

Still, at least Libertarians are able to see some parts of the problem a bit more clearly than many conventional political observers.

[iheartthed]

BrushStart's Libertarian [[or construably anarchist) point of view on privatizing roads is a bit extreme, yes. In the old days, say, the 19th century, a lot of the functions we think of as public would be private. Especially pre-New Deal. [[That's why, for instance, the Ambassador Bridge is private, as it was built before the grand era of public works. Or why Detroit's many streetcar companies were private -- at least before Mayor Pingree.) And governments did scant work on streets, which were often mud or manure. But even before the 1930s, even before the 1900s, governments did spend money to improve streets, pounding in cedar, brick, cobblestone or granite, for instance. Property values would improve, as residents didn't have mud-caked boots and carts didn't clatter along streets as noisily when they were cedar, for instance.

Anyway, I doubt Libertarians would be able to roll back the government's role in such endeavors. Individual citizens and large companies rely too much on government providing infrastructure, and it helps prime the economic pump to have good physical plant. And yet, there is a good point to all this blue-sky thinking: America, at its best, is a good mix of public and private economics, neither a laissez-faire capitalist economy nor a top-down Soviet-style planned economy, but one with the best features of both. And a lot of people are right at this time to think we've lost balance in that mix. Let the debate rage on.

Yeah, this. I don't think that roads need to be privatized but I think the absence of controls like user fees... may allow the general public to not adequately grasp the amount of resources that are put into roads. The process is so abstracted from the public that the general perception is that roads are "free". I know most reasonable people don't think roads are actually free, but I think most people probably don't fully grasp how expensive they truly are.

I think usage fees would level the playing field perception about transportation services in Metro Detroit. On one hand, I sometimes think transportation planning in Metro Detroit might be a little too democratic, but at the same time there is really only one option presented. I think if people had to put a per use price on freeways and highways then there would be increased pressure on the local governments to be more efficient in transportation planning. [[And more efficient would absolutely mean putting more emphasis on public transit.)

[BrushStart]

So what happens if Bill does go out of business? What if my street gets bought by some fuckup like Bob Nardelli or Rick Wagoner who runs it into the ground? I live on his street. I still have to use it every time I leave home. It's not like I can switch to a competitor's street, unless someone else builds a street that runs directly in front of my house/apartment building, in which case that street would be extra and unnecessary and would probably fuck up part of my neighborhood.

In reality, most streets would not be privatized, I only used that scenario in my idealistic hypo. With that concession, I think there exists a good case to privatize highways. They are more easily managed and are fewer in number. Highways are also the primary cause of sprawl, not side streets. [[Actually, highway exit ramps are the real cause of sprawl. Eliminate exit ramps and the problem is solved!) That said, a number of studies have shown that toll roads tend to be better maintained and even safer than public highways.

The thing about true toll roads is that they have a precise cost per usage. If folks had to pay per mile each time they drove on a toll road, they would seriously question living 35 miles from the city center. This would bring to the forefront other forms of transportation that were more efficient and cost-effective by comparison. If all highways were true toll roads, more people would gravitate to urbanized areas and mass transit would be economically competitive. To achieve this, however, you must take the subsidies away from the highways.

@ DetroitNerd, while the libertarian movement is pure in its ideology, most of us who lean this way see its weaknesses. I still support regulations that concern the environment, public and worker safety, and laws that protect people from the harmful actions of others. But, the elitist/corrupt system we have today is failing us because there is too much room for cronyism. When you let the government become involved, there is always corruption. Transit is a perfect example, as politicians protect the interests of their developer buddies and the oil cartels by subsidizing highways over other needed infrastructure. This is wrong.

I see government involvement in the marketplace leading to many of our serious problems. We now have a prison industrial complex because crony capitalism has lead to unreasonable incarcerations for non-violent offenders, a military industrial complex that lines the pockets of defense companies who advocate needless wars, a real estate bubble that burst when bad loans couldn't be repaid, a financial bubble that is damaging our currency, and a new disaster being created in medical insurance where costs will rise and treatment will be much worse. Keep in mind, that even I support universal healthcare over the rotten plan we now have that requires citizens to be forced customers of insurance companies who would rather see us die than receive treatment at their expense. But, I digress...

[Detroitnerd]

@ DetroitNerd, while the libertarian movement is pure in its ideology, most of us who lean this way see its weaknesses. ...

Thanks for the illuminating digression. Maybe that's the problem with "ideologies" and seeking solutions in "isms" -- the facts on the ground are often fine-grained and involve making human calls. Anyway, you've always struck me as a nuanced but enlightened person, and I know there are all kinds of Libertarians.

They're not only divided between Republicans who smoke pot and anarchists who shower ...

[antongast]

In reality...

Okay, cool, so you're aware that reality is a thing. That's all I was trying to establish. Carry on.

[That Great Guy]

If only I could just get my Website well known in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties?

The NEW L Brooks Patterson Multi Billion Freeway sprawl and expansion systems would be stopped by the restoration of fuel tax money to SMART.

Google save the fuel tax org

If I can get support, I will have Brooks and Mr. Hertel on television to tell the public the real TRUth about the MASSive bus service reductions and forced regressive tax increases on those who can least afford to pay more.

[A2Mike]

The problem is very few work downtown. I was downtown a week ago on a Wednesday or Thursday going to get lunch and it was just a ghost town at noon. In any big city, it would be swamped with workers going to get lunch. Not Detroit.

Until I retired two years ago I worked in downtown San Francisco, on Market between 7th and 8th Sts. Now and then I'd go shopping or on an errand and ride BART to Powell or Montgomery and then come up to wade through the crowds on Market or around Union Square, complaining about the pedestrian and vehicular traffic impeding my little excursion. Wow, I didn't know how good I had it!

[Danny]

L.B. Patterson wants sprawl for Oakland County to create his version of 'Detroit' with him as mayor; A Detroit like empire with no black folks in every corner.

[That Great Guy]

L.B. Patterson wants sprawl for Oakland County to create his version of 'Detroit' with him as mayor; A Detroit like empire with no black folks in every corner.

HOV stands for High Occupancy Vehicle And YES they will be built in Oakland county using the same Comprehensive Transit Funds CTF that once paid for the Livonia buses This is legal which is why all community money for SMART or same is fully protected.

It is white power but that also comes from blacks who support the Communist values that support incompetent State and County owned bus systems that just keep the poor in poor bus service where safety is tied with job growth for last place.

We both deserve better, so thank you for voting and your concerns.

How many more people need to be killed by overweight trucks destroying our roads and drunk drivers before my WebSite and similar ones are taken seriously?

How many more jobs does Detroit need to lose before we understand that 8 bucks an hour SUCK and is slave labor?

Danny, the HOV lanes SUCK and can and will only further cripple Detroit because SEMCOG, MDOT and the TRU don't listen to the public at meeting but instead have lots of free pop and cookies and nice talks about how great mass transit can be, if only WE can just dig a little deeper in our pockets to pay for someone's ride. Like mine, which costs Wayne County Property owners $40 per day to get me to work and back. In Chicago, it costs $10 per day.

Danny, we have just about the highest local transit tax based on per passenger cost then any other city in the World.

If we can put the World on wheels, then we can fill up the SMART and DDOT buses up with fare box paying customers. So, get Mr. Hertel to debate me on television

save the fuel tax org

[Hypestyles]

so how much further is it going to spread? the regional wildlife is getting restless.. nationwide, it seems like people are so afraid of home invasion by "urban mongols", and they end up being greeted in their kitchen or garage by a bear or mountain lion.. even a startled deer/elk can cause some damage..

[Hermod]

Until I retired two years ago I worked in downtown San Francisco, on Market between 7th and 8th Sts. Now and then I'd go shopping or on an errand and ride BART to Powell or Montgomery and then come up to wade through the crowds on Market or around Union Square, complaining about the pedestrian and vehicular traffic impeding my little excursion. Wow, I didn't know how good I had it!

When I worked in downtown Detroit, we brown-bagged so that we could play Euchre in the office on our lunch hour. We never went out for lunch.

[GUSHI]

L.B. Patterson wants sprawl for Oakland County to create his version of 'Detroit' with him as mayor; A Detroit like empire with no black folks in every corner.

Danny when the last time you been in OC, alot of the cities are diversified.