Faster trains coming to Detroit - Chicago Amtrak line

[Erin Dominguez]

I get late traveling. Hopefully this will help me get on time.

[arenn]

A number of my railfan type buddies in Chicago suggest the Englewood Flyover is less of a boon to passenger rail than is commonly presented, and that the real winner is NS [[?). I'm not sure on this.

In any event, I still don't see Amtrak as providing much of a competitive service to Detroit even with these upgrades. I use Megabus, which is cheap, probably a bit faster, and usually runs on time. It also doesn't require expensive stations.

To really get to a rail service that would make a difference, we'd need to build a new terrain true HSR service. Ideally this would use the Illinois Central route into a downtown Chicago station at Van Buren St. The IC is already fully grade separated, including from other railroads, and has gigantic ROW for dedicating at least one main to HSR.

[DetroitPlanner]

Here is a demo of the new trains. What I want to know is how come I never get invited to the mettings where they feed you and give you train rides?

http://www.youtube.com/michigandot

[EastsideAl]

One of these days, if this progress keeps up, I might actually ride that train again. I gave up on it a few years ago after one too many extremely late arrivals caused by interminable sitting on the tracks for goodness knows what - with no return on my fare for the inconvenience, of course .

But I am still more likely to join Arenn on the bus, or even more so just to drive the damn trip myself. I just find it infuriating that in the 21st century we have people sitting on the tracks waiting forever for trains full of boxes to take their sweet time passing, and ridiculous that my great-grandfather could get between Detroit and Chicago nearly as fast [[or faster, given the constant delays) as I can today.

[douglasm]

Could be worse. Those with long memories might remember the NYC/PC "roach coaches".

[Wheels]

I really hate to say this buuuutt;;;

I smell a high speed disaster just around the corner. [[pun intended)

[bibs]

Here is a link a presentation on the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative. The author of the presentation is Tim Hoeffner - Director at Michigan Dept of Transporation. It it states that the final design of the Detroit Interlock is complete which provides a direct connection between CN and Conrail mainlines. Not sure exactly what that means. If someone could explain it, I would greatly appreciate it.

http://www.apta.com/mc/annual/progra...Initiative.pdf

[ASR89]

Currently, the travel time between the Dearborn station and Detroit station is about 20 minutes. The West Detroit Connection Track Project is supposed to cut the time in half. As you can see in the picture below, Amtrak travels on Conrail tracks and runs on a very sharp S-curve to get onto Canadian National tracks. The video shows just how slow the train travels.

http://img.docstoccdn.com/thumb/orig/85387466.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWYV4wduAo8

[That Great Guy]

A small tax on car registration fees could help pay for this by adding regional public bus service

High speed trains makes no sense when you have to wait for an hour for a bus, if it comes. And when you can't get to cities such as Livonia. Why were we so stupid to let any cities opt out of a transit authority?

Without being SMART enough to connect all the D-DOT's, exactly how are we going to make this affordable to the taxpayers ?????

[A2Mike]

Last July I boarded an Amtrak train at the New Center Station in Detroit on a Friday evening for what was scheduled as a one hour trip to Ann Arbor. The train stopped at Inkster with no explanation for about an hour and my one hour trip turned into two hours, and I will never ride Amtrak again. They've had over forty years to get that Detroit-Chicago route together. What have they been doing all that time? The original tracks were laid in a much shorter time.
I've ridden the Eurostar from London to Paris in 2 hours 15 mins. from St. Pancras to the Gare du Nord - a 307 mile trip - while the 281 mile Detroit to Chicago trip has an advertised duration of about 5 1/2 hours, which is hardly the real time. When Amtrak provides Eurostar-type service people will ride it. If they don't the whole boondoggle should be scrapped.
My next trip into, and return from, Detroit was last fall via Greyhound, on time and in one hour each way. The only drawback is that there a only a few buses each day. I would like to visit Detroit regularly if there were frequent express buses going downtown, the art center and the Birmingham/Troy dining and shopping and venues.

[renf]

Thank you, ASR89, for posting that video of the rail entry to Detroit and for the detailed information. The improvements in the track will be beneficial.
Your video also makes clear that the city of Detroit has a vast amount of vacant land that could be used for industrial, residential or commercial purposes.

[DetroitPlanner]

A2 Mike: There has been a lot of upgrading along the entire route over last summer that will allow for faster trains next year. Perhaps you were delayed due to an issue further West?
http://www.midwesthsr.org/michigan-0...FQlgMgodNUQAew
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/207/52/A...ATK-13-107.pdf
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/591/237/Amtrak-Michigan-2013-Improvement-Phase-3-ATK-13-119.pdf

[Lowell]

I clocked it at 75 mph on my phone several times going between cities. It went slower through parts of Indiana bringing total average speed to around 60 mph factoring out stops.

I'll be damned. There's an app for that too. It never occurred to me as I never have the opportunity to ride any trains other than the People Mover. Makes sense though - locations services plus simple math.

~If~ a route could be established that averaged 100 MPH from Detroit to Chicago including stops in, say, AA and Kazoo, I think it would succeed greatly as it would beat out trip times by air and auto at that point [especially considering it would deliver one to the heart of the cities as well]. Eventually it could include non-stops. If I'm the airlines, I'm trying to figure out how to prevent this.

[PeachLaser]

Talking with the AMTRAK people here in Florida, the railroads schedule their freights around the AMTRAK schedule. So long as the AMTRAK train stays on schedule. it should not be sidelined for a freight. When the AMTRAK train falls behind schedule, then it becomes the dispatcher's red-headed stepchild and the freights have priority.

I attempted to meet the AMTRAK train in Jacksonville that was coming in from Los Angeles. Got to the station 15 minutes early and was told that the train was running late. I asked, "Running an hour late?" The reply, "No, about a day."

[ghettopalmetto]

~If~ a route could be established that averaged 100 MPH from Detroit to Chicago including stops in, say, AA and Kazoo, I think it would succeed greatly as it would beat out trip times by air and auto at that point [especially considering it would deliver one to the heart of the cities as well]. Eventually it could include non-stops. If I'm the airlines, I'm trying to figure out how to prevent this.

If I'm an airline, I'm *encouraging* this. Because our national rail service sucks so bad, our airlines are forced to operate money-losing short-haul flights to-and-from hub airports.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep...outes-20120927

[DetroitPlanner]

I'll be damned. There's an app for that too. It never occurred to me as I never have the opportunity to ride any trains other than the People Mover. Makes sense though - locations services plus simple math.

I've done this with my handheld Garmin too. The ones meant for cars don't have much capability other than to guide people down roads.

Regarding airlines, there is a lot of fuel used just to get the big planes up in the air and back down safely. I would think that they would welcome fewer mid-length flights as the cost per passenger has to be pretty high. The train network is not as complete as the plane one. For example, I have landed in some pretty desolate places where trains fear to travel. [[Rapid City SD, Bozeman MT to name a couple).

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I would so rather spend our Amtrak subsidies on paying for better buses, routes, and light rail in SE Michigan. Why? Lots more people use it than could ever use Amtrak in Michigan. Train travel from Detroit to Chicago is purely a pleasure ride for those who prefer it to other forms of travel. I prefer sailing to Chicago. Should that be subsidized? Buses are massively cheaper and 15% slower than the train. Plane travel is much faster, and price competitive with Amtrak if you plan ahead. And both bus and plane travel much more frequently.

I love rail travel. I have taken the train up and down the east coast repeatedly [[I have also taken buses all over the east). Those eastern cities move hundreds of thousands of people every single day by rail. We never, ever would, even if the subsidy were so large to make it price competitive. It just does not warrant the huge subsidy we need to give it in the midwest. Except for the blow to our civic self-esteem some would feel, abolition of Amtrak service in our whole state would be largely unnoticed.

The $25M annual Amtrak subsidy repurposed to local transit could pay for M1 rail into Oakland county in 5 years, or replace all of SE Michigan's bus fleet in that time. That does not include the Amtrak infrastructure costs. Or fund a good chunk of commuter rail to Ann Arbor. Resources are finite; those are more productive places to put the money. It will serve far more people, and take more cars off the road, which is more environmentally friendly.

[DetroitPlanner]

Mikey, respectfully I do not agree that this is just a preference. There are a lot of people who cannot make it to the airport or cannot afford to fly to Chicago. The train is a great option for those people.

As the train makes its way across Michigan and into Indiana it stops at lots of places where Air travel is not an option or that are not served by Greyhoud/Megabus which usually services major highways. People get on and off at these stops as well. It is not simply moving a bunch of people between two places, but to many destinations along the route. Places like Niles [[which also services S Bend IN, will be left with no train service to either Chicago or Detroit. Smaller places will also suffer.

How do you calculate that this will pay for M-1 through Oakland County in 5 years? Most of the cost of M-1 will be paid for by Detroit businesses that see value in providing that service up to New Center. It is a long way from New Center just to reach 8 Mile. The cost of M-1 also includes the cost of reconstructing Woodward. Woodward is considerably wider as it moves North, making the cost of reconstruction skyrocket.

[iheartthed]

If I'm an airline, I'm *encouraging* this. Because our national rail service sucks so bad, our airlines are forced to operate money-losing short-haul flights to-and-from hub airports.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep...outes-20120927

I wonder why airlines don't encourage this more. If they could lobby the feds to invest in rail infrastructure from smaller cities that are close proximity to larger cities [[like Flint to Detroit) then that could supplement their routes air routes. Perhaps they could even sell airline tickets bundled with train tickets.

[professorscott]

Discussing whether money should be spent on Amtrak vs. extending M1 Rail is based on a misconception that hasn't been well publicized. One of the reasons M1 Rail exists is that Amtrak doesn't bring people all the way downtown; one of the purposes of M1 Rail is to give train travelers an obvious and simple way to get from the train station to WSU, the cultural center and downtown. Cutting Amtrak to add to M1 Rail doesn't make sense, even if that's the only reason not to do it; but it isn't.

Extending M1 Rail will happen, over time, incrementally and organically. As the New Center area infills, of course gradually land will become more expensive and there will be a need to use less expensive land north of Grand Boulevard, so there will be pressure to extend the service a short distance [[say, two or three stations), then the process will repeat for as long as it does.

On the other hand, if one wanted to extend M1 Rail immediately, it makes no sense to do so unless you go at least as far as Ferndale, and preferably Royal Oak. [[Short term, it would make more sense to extend it in a different direction, down East Jefferson Avenue for some distance.) This will be a very expensive undertaking, and there doesn't seem to be much support for spending that kind of public money. The private-sector and NGO investors are interested in the existing project as a catalyst, and certainly hope it succeeds and grows, but they are not in a position to fund major expansions.

As Amtrak ridership grows, and if that commuter rail ever actually starts operating, the connections from Amtrak to M1 Rail and whatever other improvements might be made [[rapid bus or whatever) will be critical to travelers' ease of getting around the area. It doesn't make sense to rob Peter to pay Paul in this case, because Peter and Paul are codependent.

[bailey]

On the other hand, if one wanted to extend M1 Rail immediately, it makes no sense to do so unless you go at least as far as Ferndale, and preferably Royal Oak.

I know the point is moot as those with gold have made their rules and called all the shots on this project, but I'm not sure how M1 makes any sense [[as a mass transit system...and not a downtown parking shuttle) WITHOUT going to AT LEAST Royal Oak in Phase One.

[DetroitPlanner]

I know the point is moot as those with gold have made their rules and called all the shots on this project, but I'm not sure how M1 makes any sense [[as a mass transit system...and not a downtown parking shuttle) WITHOUT going to AT LEAST Royal Oak in Phase One.

M-1 connects New Center, Amtrak, Wayne State, Cultural Center, Medical Center, the DSO and downtown. There is a lot of interaction between these points. Last estimate I heard on ridership was somewhere about 60k per day. As more stuff gets built in this corridor like the new arena/entertainment area, it will go higher. Check out the economic impact that the Healthline has had on Cleveland's Euclid corridor. It is remarkable.

Case in point: A friend of mine from high school works for the State in New Center. He has to come downtown frequently. With M-1 he will be able to do so with a lot less hassle than getting into a car, driving down, finding a place to park and walking to his final destination. There are a lot of people who will find this to be very useful and wonder how they got along without it.

This will allow spouses who come on conventions to get out further into the City and explore places like the DIA or many of the shops that are popping up in the area formerly known as Cass Corridor.

I too want to get some sort of seamless service to get folks out to at least the Zoo without transferring. The reality is the money is not there, nor is the political support to move it that far.

[mwilbert]

I know the point is moot as those with gold have made their rules and called all the shots on this project, but I'm not sure how M1 makes any sense [[as a mass transit system...and not a downtown parking shuttle) WITHOUT going to AT LEAST Royal Oak in Phase One.

It seems to me that the M1 will be quite useful to the increasing number of people living near Woodward between New Center and downtown. On the other hand, it would be a pretty slow ride to Royal Oak, not that I wouldn't like people to have that option.

Perhaps they should build something just between Ferndale and RO [[or maybe if people were feeling really metropolitan, they could run it down to the State Fair bus station, where they could probably put an equipment depot) and then look at creating a connection later after the two distinct segments are actually functioning.

[DetroitPlanner]

It seems to me that the M1 will be quite useful to the increasing number of people living near Woodward between New Center and downtown. On the other hand, it would be a pretty slow ride to Royal Oak, not that I wouldn't like people to have that option.

Good luck getting two small communities to commit general funds to this. All transit needs operating subsidies. SMART has enough issues covering their current system and would not be interested in giving more to two communities if it means cutting from others. M-1 is being paid for and run by the private sector. Can you think of the private sector doing the same for what will essentially be used as a food court/bar train?

[ghettopalmetto]

I wonder why airlines don't encourage this more. If they could lobby the feds to invest in rail infrastructure from smaller cities that are close proximity to larger cities [[like Flint to Detroit) then that could supplement their routes air routes. Perhaps they could even sell airline tickets bundled with train tickets.

Well, that would make a whole hell of a lot of sense, wouldn't it? It would help, though, if our airports were located anywhere near passenger rail lines. But in our typical American fashion, we long ago assumed that "no one wants to ride trains", and located many of our airports away from rail lines. European cities [[e.g. Paris) are much better at coordinating air and rail as complementary modes. In fact, the TGV has made it possible for Air France to eliminate many short-haul domestic routes.

I do know, however, that United Airlines [[and previously Continental) will book you through to places like Wilmington, DE, Philadelphia 30th Street Station, and Providence, RI using a transfer to rail at Newark International Airport. If they really wanted, Southwest could do the same at BWI. Most hub airports in the United States, though, don't have regularly scheduled passenger rail service stopping at or close to the airport.