Rethinking the Mall

[kraig]

So what are you proposing? That the same customers who go to Fairlane and Southfield to shop are going to drive downtown to shop at high-end stores?

Have you seen the economic demographics of the City of Detroit? By and large, it ain't exactly what one would call "desirable". I think you need more good grocery stores in neighborhoods before you try "being exclusive".

Hard Rock Cafe did well at first because of its novelty, not to mention its proximity to office workers and sports fans. People certainly didn't go there for the food.

If you think novelty is a sustainable way to redevelop the local economy, knock yourself out. I just don't see how people without jobs are going to spend oodles of money shopping at "unique" stores at a time when retail spending is down all over the country.

You don't appear to understand what exclusive means in this situation. It doesn't mean that only a few people can afford an item. Exclusive in this situation means that the establishment wouldn't exist outside of Detroit, hence the Hard Rock Cafe example, but, since it is an establishment where people would want to go they would do so in Detroit.

You do realize that the most of the Detroiters that you are alluding to do have jobs and do spend money? But hey, you're probably right, people don't repeatedly drive from all over to go to the Mexicantown District for the great food and good times. They go for the novelty of it.

You really are new to the area, aren't you?

[ghettopalmetto]

You don't appear to understand what exclusive means in this situation. It doesn't mean that only a few people can afford an item. Exclusive in this situation means that the establishment wouldn't exist outside of Detroit, hence the Hard Rock Cafe example, but, since it is an establishment where people would want to go they would do so in Detroit.

You do realize that the most of the Detroiters that you are alluding to do have jobs and do spend money? But hey, you're probably right, people don't repeatedly drive from all over to go to the Mexicantown District for the great food and good times. They go for the novelty of it.

You really are new to the area, aren't you?

So what do you propose? A fucking Cheesecake Factory?

Look. Real neighborhood renewal involves providing basic services and amenities to people that live in the neighborhood. It seems like you're focusing on the neighborhood-as-tourist-trap, which requires "luring" people from the "outside" in order to function with any modicum of success. Gimmicks don't build successful neighborhoods.

You know what would be unique that would attract people? A coffee shop owned by someone in the neighborhood. A decent bookstore. A hardware store. A locally-owned restaurant that uses fresh, local ingredients. Shops in which to buy clothes. Of course, it should go without saying that these places need to be proximate to the customer base.

[kraig]

So what do you propose? A fucking Cheesecake Factory?

Look. Real neighborhood renewal involves providing basic services and amenities to people that live in the neighborhood. It seems like you're focusing on the neighborhood-as-tourist-trap, which requires "luring" people from the "outside" in order to function with any modicum of success. Gimmicks don't build successful neighborhoods.

You know what would be unique that would attract people? A coffee shop owned by someone in the neighborhood. A decent bookstore. A hardware store. A locally-owned restaurant that uses fresh, local ingredients. Shops in which to buy clothes. Of course, it should go without saying that these places need to be proximate to the customer base.

Providing basic services goes without saying. If I'm not mistaken, this thread is titled "Rethinking the Mall". I simply responded to the theme of the thread. City Services, School Sytems, Transportation, etc. all play a crucial role in the development of any city. But, that wasn't the overall theme of the thread and I wasn't responding to any comments about those other issues on this thread. Attracting visitors from all over means people that live in the area and people living outside of the area as well. It's an entire world out there outside of Detroit. Why are you attempting to contain Detroit inside a bubble where no one can get in or out?

I certainly wouldn't classify Mexicantown as a gimmick or a novelty. I don't know how familiar you are with the area, but, you'll find pretty much all of the things you're referring to in your post [[shops, locally owned restaurants, hardware stores) right there.

I posted a comment on the Businesses/Compuware thread that I'll paste onto this one. It will give you an idea about where I'm coming from on locally owned businesses.

This is one of the reasons why there should be a stronger push for small and medium sized independent businesses. A locally owned business operation is going to differ from the nationally owned chain stores.

"Chain stores base their decisions on a global, marketshare, etc. approach moreso than how the individual stores are doing. A locally owned store is going to fight to make money in the location that it's in. Both have chances to succeed or fail, but the locally owned store is not going to close a profitable location based on what's happening in the global market."

[ghettopalmetto]

Providing basic services goes without saying. If I'm not mistaken, this thread is titled "Rethinking the Mall". I simply responded to the theme of the thread. City Services, School Sytems, Transportation, etc. all play a crucial role in the development of any city. But, that wasn't the overall theme of the thread and I wasn't responding to any comments about those other issues on this thread. Attracting visitors from all over means people that live in the area and people living outside of the area as well. It's an entire world out there outside of Detroit. Why are you attempting to contain Detroit inside a bubble where no one can get in or out?,

Before the shopping mall, there was neighborhood [[and downtown) retail. If you follow current retail trends, the shopping mall is [[d)evolving back to this idea. People are more concerned now with supporting their own communities and looking for innovative product.

I'm not so much trying to keep people in a bubble, as I am advocating that one should not have to drive 10 miles for every basic fricking thing.

[kraig]

Before the shopping mall, there was neighborhood [[and downtown) retail. If you follow current retail trends, the shopping mall is [[d)evolving back to this idea. People are more concerned now with supporting their own communities and looking for innovative product.

I'm not so much trying to keep people in a bubble, as I am advocating that one should not have to drive 10 miles for every basic fricking thing.

You don't want to drive ten miles for things, but, you appear to be against the concept of bringing in businesses into the City that would put what you want closer to you. Where are you going with this?

[ghettopalmetto]

You don't want to drive ten miles for things, but, you appear to be against the concept of bringing in businesses into the City that would put what you want closer to you. Where are you going with this?

No, I'm all for developing business in the City. But you can't just plop a Crate and Barrel in the middle of downtown Detroit and expect it to be successful--especially when its success is predicated on "luring" people from around the entire metropolitan area. By proposing that all new entrepreneurial endeavors in Detroit need to be "unique" locations that do not exist yet in Southeast Michigan [[e.g. Hard Rock Cafe), this is precisely what you are requiring.

Any entrepreneur worth his salt knows his client base, their needs, and their income range. I still have no idea what kind of "unique" venture you're proposing, since you've been vague at best in your description of what this should be. Shit, let's just put a Ferris wheel in the middle of Detroit, and build stores all around that. People will drive in from the suburbs to ride the Ferris wheel, and then they'll certainly shop at all the stores there!

[kraig]

No, I'm all for developing business in the City. But you can't just plop a Crate and Barrel in the middle of downtown Detroit and expect it to be successful--especially when its success is predicated on "luring" people from around the entire metropolitan area. By proposing that all new entrepreneurial endeavors in Detroit need to be "unique" locations that do not exist yet in Southeast Michigan [[e.g. Hard Rock Cafe), this is precisely what you are requiring.

Any entrepreneur worth his salt knows his client base, their needs, and their income range. I still have no idea what kind of "unique" venture you're proposing, since you've been vague at best in your description of what this should be. Shit, let's just put a Ferris wheel in the middle of Detroit, and build stores all around that. People will drive in from the suburbs to ride the Ferris wheel, and then they'll certainly shop at all the stores there!

Crate & Barrel already exist at the malls in this area, that's the opposite of what I'm talking about. What's so vague about Hard Rock Cafe, Greektown, Mexicantown and Fishbones. As far as businesses luring people from all over, what's wrong with that? The Mexicantown/Corktown businesses wouldn't thrive off of only the people that live in the area. Greektown, Eastern Market and all three casinos wouldn't make it if their only clientele were neighborhood residents.

[ghettopalmetto]

As far as businesses luring people from all over, what's wrong with that?

1. Because it's not a sustainable business model.

2. Because it implies the needs of suburbanites from all over are more important than the needs of the residents of the city. It's presumptuous and insulting.

3. Because no entrepreneur in his right mind buys into that formula, unless you're a Swedish company that sells inexpensive furniture.

4. Because the suburbs are already over-retailed. Those people are going to come to Detroit to shop?

Greektown and Mexicantown do well because they offer a sense of place--something the suburbs in Southeast Michigan sorely lack. Look at a finer scale and tell me what parts constitute Greektown and Mexicantown?

[kraig]

1. Because it's not a sustainable business model.

2. Because it implies the needs of suburbanites from all over are more important than the needs of the residents of the city. It's presumptuous and insulting.

3. Because no entrepreneur in his right mind buys into that formula, unless you're a Swedish company that sells inexpensive furniture.

4. Because the suburbs are already over-retailed. Those people are going to come to Detroit to shop?

Greektown and Mexicantown do well because they offer a sense of place--something the suburbs in Southeast Michigan sorely lack. Look at a finer scale and tell me what parts constitute Greektown and Mexicantown?

1. Because it's not a sustainable business model.
You really need to venture outside of your Detroit bubble. Until then, no matter how many times it's expalined to you, you aren't going to understand it.

2. Because it implies the needs of suburbanites from all over are more important than the needs of the residents of the city. It's presumptuous and insulting.

What do you have against suburbanites? It appears that you're operating from a presumption that if people from the suburbs visit an establishment in Detroit that Detroiters aren't allowed to visit that same establishment. What's so insulting about people, no matter where they hail from, being able to go to the same places?

3. Because no entrepreneur in his right mind buys into that formula, unless you're a Swedish company that sells inexpensive furniture.

So, you're telling me that entrepreneurs in Detroit want Detroiters only at their establishments? Good luck convincing anyone on that one.


4. Because the suburbs are already over-retailed. Those people are going to come to Detroit to shop?

They will if it's an establishment that doesn't already exist in the suburbs, with items that they can't, for the most part, get in the suburbs. Detroiters will shop there as well.


Greektown and Mexicantown do well because they offer a sense of place--something the suburbs in Southeast Michigan sorely lack. Look at a finer scale and tell me what parts constitute Greektown and Mexicantown?

Thank you, you do realize that that's what I've been saying to you the whole time? Uniqueness.

[bailey]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmachine/2971108982/

"The Target Store at Northgate in Seattle has an escalator for shopping carts."

Uh, so does the Target at Square Lake and Telegraph. The parking lot is almost entirely under the store. You all seem to be speaking as if this is some exotic thing that is only done in far off places. Jesus, get out once in a while and look around. There is a reason there are none being built in Detroit, and it isn't lack of space.

[kraig]

Uh, so does the Target at Square Lake and Telegraph. The parking lot is almost entirely under the store. You all seem to be speaking as if this is some exotic thing that is only done in far off places. Jesus, get out once in a while and look around. There is a reason there are none being built in Detroit, and it isn't lack of space.

You're right. Unfortunately, there are too many people in this city that want to live in a plastic bubble. Maybe they're afraid to cross eight mile because that's where Coleman told all of the criminals to go.

[ghettopalmetto]

1. Because it's not a sustainable business model.
You really need to venture outside of your Detroit bubble. Until then, no matter how many times it's expalined to you, you aren't going to understand it.

.

I can't understand anything you don't attempt to explain. For the record, I don't live in the City of Detroit.

2. Because it implies the needs of suburbanites from all over are more important than the needs of the residents of the city. It's presumptuous and insulting.

What do you have against suburbanites? It appears that you're operating from a presumption that if people from the suburbs visit an establishment in Detroit that Detroiters aren't allowed to visit that same establishment. What's so insulting about people, no matter where they hail from, being able to go to the same places?

I don't have anything against suburbanites. It's just that the suburbs of Detroit have a plethora of retail options, while the inner city has relatively few. If someone from the suburbs wants to spend money at a Detroit establishment, that's fine. But to base one's entire business model on catering to over-retailed suburbanites while overlooking the drastically underserved inner city retail market? That's preposterous at best.

3. Because no entrepreneur in his right mind buys into that formula, unless you're a Swedish company that sells inexpensive furniture.

So, you're telling me that entrepreneurs in Detroit want Detroiters only at their establishments? Good luck convincing anyone on that one.

Where did I write this? When was the last time you drove 15 or 20 miles each way to make a purchase or eat a meal? The simple truth is, any business located in Detroit is apt to have Detroiters as its primary customers. This isn't discrimination--it's geography.

4. Because the suburbs are already over-retailed. Those people are going to come to Detroit to shop?

They will if it's an establishment that doesn't already exist in the suburbs, with items that they can't, for the most part, get in the suburbs. Detroiters will shop there as well.

Such as what? Name one thing you can't buy in the suburbs of Detroit.

I know you mean well, but your optimism seems a bit naive and misguided. Have you ever lived anywhere outside of Southeast Michigan?

Further, I don't really understand your definition of the word "unique", since you've used it to describe:

1. A chain restaurant

2. A two-block stretch of Monroe Street consisting primarily of restaurants and devoid of residents, whose economic success is almost entirely contigent upon visitors to the casino as well as sports fans.

3. Some sort of ill-defined shop to which people are supposedly going to flock from miles around.

Some clarification would be helpful.

[kraig]

.

I can't understand anything you don't attempt to explain. For the record, I don't live in the City of Detroit.



I don't have anything against suburbanites. It's just that the suburbs of Detroit have a plethora of retail options, while the inner city has relatively few. If someone from the suburbs wants to spend money at a Detroit establishment, that's fine. But to base one's entire business model on catering to over-retailed suburbanites while overlooking the drastically underserved inner city retail market? That's preposterous at best.



Where did I write this? When was the last time you drove 15 or 20 miles each way to make a purchase or eat a meal? The simple truth is, any business located in Detroit is apt to have Detroiters as its primary customers. This isn't discrimination--it's geography.



Such as what? Name one thing you can't buy in the suburbs of Detroit.

I know you mean well, but your optimism seems a bit naive and misguided. Have you ever lived anywhere outside of Southeast Michigan?

Further, I don't really understand your definition of the word "unique", since you've used it to describe:

1. A chain restaurant

2. A two-block stretch of Monroe Street consisting primarily of restaurants and devoid of residents, whose economic success is almost entirely contigent upon visitors to the casino as well as sports fans.

3. Some sort of ill-defined shop to which people are supposedly going to flock from miles around.

Some clarification would be helpful.

Are the casinos unique enough for you? Is having the most densely populated and owned Greek and Mexicantown areas in the state unique enough?

Greektown was around decades before the Stadiums and Casinos. If you aren't new to the area, you sure are acting like it.

[Chris Rohn]

Uh, so does the Target at Square Lake and Telegraph. The parking lot is almost entirely under the store. You all seem to be speaking as if this is some exotic thing that is only done in far off places. Jesus, get out once in a while and look around. There is a reason there are none being built in Detroit, and it isn't lack of space.

I was just about to mention this store. It isn't exactly "urban" or anything, but I do applaud Target for making use out of a limited site and placing the parking beneath the store, even if their goal is to put the Kmart across the street out of business and this lot was the largest available in the area. Big box is slightly more appealing in this configuration, even though I still prefer an urban solution... but urban solutions wont work at the corner of Square Lake and Telegraph. This is a start toward a better direction.

[ghettopalmetto]

Are the casinos unique enough for you? Is having the most densely populated and owned Greek and Mexicantown areas in the state unique enough?

Greektown was around decades before the Stadiums and Casinos. If you aren't new to the area, you sure are acting like it.

So then there's no problem, right? Greektown and Mexicantown and the casinos are "unique" enough to make the City of Detroit prosper, right?

One's geographic location has nothing to do with this. It's simple business economics. You're proposing to rebuild Detroit on a gimmick. As you've recognized above, that's been tried. How's it working out?

[kraig]

So then there's no problem, right? Greektown and Mexicantown and the casinos are "unique" enough to make the City of Detroit prosper, right?

One's geographic location has nothing to do with this. It's simple business economics. You're proposing to rebuild Detroit on a gimmick. As you've recognized above, that's been tried. How's it working out?

It's going to take more than one of anything. To think or state otherwise isn't realistic. As for Greektown, Mexicantown and the Casinos, everything is working out fine. We need more of that throughout the city.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's going to take more than one of anything. To think or state otherwise isn't realistic. As for Greektown, Mexicantown and the Casinos, everything is working out fine. We need more of that throughout the city.

So more casinos, more sports stadia, more museums, more "ethnic" neighborhoods, more artificial programming? Remind me how any of this benefits people who have to drive 10 miles to buy food?

I *implore* you to travel a little bit to see what constitutes a city, as opposed to a drive-in amusement park for suburbanites.

[bailey]

It's going to take more than one of anything. To think or state otherwise isn't realistic. As for Greektown, Mexicantown and the Casinos, everything is working out fine. We need more of that throughout the city.

I could have sworn I read that Greektown Casino was bankrupt and MGM was for sale.

[kraig]

I could have sworn I read that Greektown Casino was bankrupt and MGM was for sale.

They both make tons of money. Greektown suffers from very bad management. When practically 50-85% of your original owners have to be bought out or phased out due to the state's rules, you're going to run into cash flow problems. Any possible MGM sell is due to global decision making not anything having to do with it's ability to make money. It's still a very profitable casino and Greektown will be once it's house is in order.

[kraig]

So more casinos, more sports stadia, more museums, more "ethnic" neighborhoods, more artificial programming? Remind me how any of this benefits people who have to drive 10 miles to buy food?

I *implore* you to travel a little bit to see what constitutes a city, as opposed to a drive-in amusement park for suburbanites.

I'm not saying grocery stores aren't important, never have. Why is everything with you that one thing can't exist with the other? I don't see where the building of a store or restaurant would prevent someone from building a grocery store.

Whether there's a grocery store or not, in this economy, I think people will still benefit from jobs and recreation that are generated from development.

What's your plan? Hold the City of Detroit hostage with no new development until Farmer Jacks makes a comeback?

[bailey]

they both make tons of money. Greektown suffers from very bad management

Still bankrupt though. Sort of like GM. The postulation above was that we are to build a vibrant city based on part, Casinos. 1/3 of that economic driver is bankrupt.

When practically 50-85% of your original owners have to be bought out or phased out due to the state's rules, you're going to run into cash flow problems.

Did the state change the rules or was the rather spotty past of the owners the problem? Again, still doesnt change the fact that they're insolvent...no matter how much cash they bring in, if expenses are more than income, it;'s not "profitable".

Any possible MGM sell is due to global decision making not anything having to do with it's ability to make money.

Of course that presupposes it's eventual buyer knows anything about running a Casino. Or, how much will it lose when it's no longer MGM? Or, what if the same type of "bad management" that piloted Greektown straight into BK is brought in?

I'm not saying that Casinos are evil or should be banned or whatever, I'm saying it's pretty shifty soil on which to lay a foundation for future growth.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm not saying grocery stores aren't important, never have. Why is everything with you that one thing can't exist with the other? I don't see where the building of a store or restaurant would prevent someone from building a grocery store.

Whether there's a grocery store or not, in this economy, I think people will still benefit from jobs and recreation that are generated from development.

What's your plan? Hold the City of Detroit hostage with no new development until Farmer Jacks makes a comeback?

I just don't understand what your ideas are intended to accomplish if they were implemented.

[kraig]

Still bankrupt though. Sort of like GM. The postulation above was that we are to build a vibrant city based on part, Casinos. 1/3 of that economic driver is bankrupt.


Did the state change the rules or was the rather spotty past of the owners the problem? Again, still doesnt change the fact that they're insolvent...no matter how much cash they bring in, if expenses are more than income, it;'s not "profitable".

Of course that presupposes it's eventual buyer knows anything about running a Casino. Or, how much will it lose when it's no longer MGM? Or, what if the same type of "bad management" that piloted Greektown straight into BK is brought in?

I'm not saying that Casinos are evil or should be banned or whatever, I'm saying it's pretty shifty soil on which to lay a foundation for future growth.

Here's an issue, every time an idea is brought up, everyone acts as though this one entity, whether it's one business or one industry, is viewed and judged as is it is the end all be all that will solve all of Detroit's problems. GM and Chrysler are in trouble, but believe me, this city and state are a whole lot better off with them than without them. Maybe the philosophy should be to do more to diversify and boost our economy so that one industry doesn't account for so large a percentage of our budget and well being.

By the way, status issues aside, MGM and Greektown casino have both still delivered a lot of tax revenue and jobs to the City and State this year. But hey, what's the 70 million that they delivered mean to the City anyway? What with all of surplus money that the city has. Be grateful for what you have.

[kraig]

I just don't understand what your ideas are intended to accomplish if they were implemented.

What don't you understand about a restaurant or store? What don't you understand about a stadium or museum? That's why I said no matter how it was explained to you you would not get it.

[DetroitDad]

Detroit needs to go after Establishments that don't exist within the Metropolitan area. Establishments that already exist within the Metro area feel that they won't see an increase in their market share since Detroiters travel to the suburbs to support their establishments. Hard Rock and Fishbones started off so well because there were no other establishments in the area. That's also what always worked so well for Greektown. Being exclusive is what works for Detroit establishments.

I think that said novelty establishments are destinations, but the smaller ones only work in conjunction with larger anchors [[casinos, stadiums, theaters, etc.). The places that thrive can survive by providing services to the local residents and employees, and provide either novelty OR familiarity [[like a McDonalds) for out of towners and suburbanites. Then you have places like Jazzy Cafe which is a novelty to opera going suburbanites because of it's urban atmosphere. That wouldn't work with an urban Target though, so novelty isn't the answer.

Kraig, I know what you are getting at, and you are right. Downtown would benefit from some interactive stores along Woodward that filter people in from the entertainment venues and the offices. I've talked with other professionals and entrepreneurs in the area, and they agree. I prefer to call that concept destination shopping, not novelty shopping. People drove to Great Lakes Crossing in Auburn Hills, IKEA in Canton, and even that plaster painting place in Downtown Farmington. Plenty of people drove across country to go to the Mall of America in Minnesota. It's all but clear that is what would work in Downtown Detroit in the new economy that is coming. On top of that, the new trend does seem to be shifting towards a renaissance in "original recipe stores" in downtowns. So if you bring some of those along with destination shopping, you might have a Downtown Detroit shopping district again.

The main problem here is that a association or marketing group would need to be put together or hired to manage and promote the area, and that would have to happen before tenants move in, which means an entrepreneur with enough capital willing to take the risk. The other problem is that people aren't driving to destination shopping centers anymore, but that has kind of already been solved, as the idea is that enough people will chose to live or work near these urban shopping spaces, or visit them as secondary destinations to the casinos, stadiums, and theaters.