Rethinking the Mall

[iheartthed]

Detroit get's a subtle shoutout on the latest installment of "Rethinking the Mall" on Alison Arieff's NY Times blog. Check it out: http://arieff.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...king-the-mall/

[Hypestyles]

very interesting.. designs like this would be very good for urban detroit.. needs attracting investors, etc.. there's no target, big box outlets, etc. in the city..

[scuola]

If big box stores could sell more American products I would see nothing inherently wrong in them. They provide convenient one stop shopping, tend to employ large numbers of people for similar wages as they would be employed by "mom and pop," and can draw in a large number of people into a local area which has been the goal of a marketplace for millenniums. I think a Wal-Mart or Target in an urban environment like downtown Detroit could really be a boost for the residential market downtown.

[professorscott]

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

[313WX]

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

There's an urban multi-level Target in Minneapolis. It's inside the Nicolett mall, something that could potentially work with Washington Blvd. or Woodward Avenue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_...#Target_Stores

And I'm sure there are some urban/multi-level Target stores in Chicago & New York.

[Red Devil]

Here in Long Beach, CA there is an urban Wal Mart as part of the City Place development. It has an adjacent parking deck. City Place is an outdoor mix of retail and residential situated as part of downtown LBC's urban grid. It's a great concept, but has been struggling with the recent economic turmoil.

http://www.longbeachcityplace.com/Site%20plan.html
http://www.longbeachcityplace.com/Eventsandphotos.html

[iheartthed]

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

Atlantic Terminal Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.atlanticterminalstores.co...tlantic_01.jpg

Flatbush Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.fadingad.com/blog/brookly...ush/target.jpg

Bronx Target: http://dresramblings.files.wordpress...onx-target.jpg

South Loop Target [[Chicago): http://www.appliedengservices.com/images/SouthLoop.jpg

[Bearinabox]

Atlantic Terminal Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.atlanticterminalstores.co...tlantic_01.jpg

Flatbush Target [[Brooklyn): http://www.fadingad.com/blog/brookly...ush/target.jpg

Bronx Target: http://dresramblings.files.wordpress...onx-target.jpg

South Loop Target [[Chicago): http://www.appliedengservices.com/images/SouthLoop.jpg

Maybe we should get straight what a "big-box" store is and isn't. My post was made under the assumption that "big-box" refers to the design of the physical store, not to who operates it. If this were a chains-vs.-independents thread, I would have posted something entirely different. The links you posted, to me, are not "big-boxes," they are urban retail establishments operated by a company that also operates a lot of big-boxes.

[wolverine]

Every Wal Mart or Target store I've ever seen has been a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking. If there's another type of such store, someone please post a pic. If not: where in downtown Detroit would we all like to see a stand-alone building surrounded by acres of parking?

A whole bunch of Targets, Whole Foods, Best Buys, Bed Bath and Beyonds exist throughout the United States with the parking located on the roof or beneath these structures. Chicago has several, but the parking costs money unless you validate for spending more than $1. That's easy considering they bundle these developments with smaller chain stores and restaurants.....ones that would typically be located on outlots in suburbs.

Land is so ridiculously cheap in Michigan there's a reason why it's easy to build acres of parking and no incentives to innovate.

[Bearinabox]

If big box stores could sell more American products I would see nothing inherently wrong in them. They provide convenient one stop shopping, tend to employ large numbers of people for similar wages as they would be employed by "mom and pop," and can draw in a large number of people into a local area which has been the goal of a marketplace for millenniums. I think a Wal-Mart or Target in an urban environment like downtown Detroit could really be a boost for the residential market downtown.

One thing that is inherently "wrong" with big-box stores is that there is no practical way to fit them into urban environments. Even an urban environment as disinvested as Detroit doesn't have tracts of vacant land on the scale required to build a Wal-Mart with the requisite number of parking spaces, and if such a tract were assembled it would inherently detract from the "urban-ness" of its surroundings. You wouldn't be able to walk or take transit to it, because it'd take you half an hour just to get across the parking lot, and it would require streets to be closed [[making it less practical to walk from one side of it to the other even if you aren't shopping there). Because of this, big-boxes very rarely locate in urban areas, and when they do, they are functionally and aesthetically very much out of place [[the Home Depot at 7 Mile and Meyers is a perfect example, and that's hardly the most urban part of Detroit). The suburban locations of big-box stores is not a coincidence, or a function of demographics; the big-box store is a model of development that could only have been conceived by and for suburbanites.

Thus, in a retail landscape composed entirely of big boxes, people who live in urban environments have to get in their cars and drive out to the sticks to shop, thereby negating some of the advantages of urban life [[walkability, proximity to amenities) that draw people to those areas in the first place, and making it harder for central-city neighborhoods to attract residents. Whether or not a downtown Wal-Mart would be good for downtown is a moot point, because there is no downtown Wal-Mart and there never will be. Wal-Marts don't belong in downtowns, and Wal-Mart knows this better than anyone.

[ghettopalmetto]

One thing that is inherently "wrong" with big-box stores is that there is no practical way to fit them into urban environments.

The evidence is to the contrary. In Washington DC, the city helped a developer acquire and develop a site that contains a Target, Best Buy, Bed Bath & Beyond, Washington Sports Club, and smaller street-level retail including Radio Shack, Staples, a "nutrition" store, shoe store, mattress store, and several small restaurants with 1000 parking spots. The city paid for construction of the two-level underground parking garage. The amount of land consumed? One city block.

Granted, half the parking always goes unused, since the development is in a pedestrian-oriented neighborhood, and lies across the street from a subway station.

[ghettopalmetto]

Tell you what, Kraig. Why don't you open up your unique store or restaurant in Detroit, and keep us all posted how it goes?

[kraig]

Tell you what, Kraig. Why don't you open up your unique store or restaurant in Detroit, and keep us all posted how it goes?

They've both been doing fine for eight and six years, respectively. Thanks.

[bailey]

What are your stores or restaurants Kraig?

[kraig]

What are your stores or restaurants Kraig?

As much as I talk about the politicians and the movers and shakers, there is no way I'm going to expose myself for reprisals.

[bailey]

ok... well, how about generalities?

[stasu1213]

I think Detroit is rigged to benefit the Big 3. We have to jump in our jalopies to drive out to a mall with a gigantic parking lot to buy clothes and goods. Target has a big parking lot. As long as GM is rulling to roost Detroit will have a hard time getting good retail store. To have a Target downtown you would need a good transit system. The Big 3 sabotaged that in the 60's. Tell Bing to get off his hand and knees. Stop begging GM to stay, and make Detroit a more pedestrial friendly city. P.S Get rid of Monica Conyers and all of those other kooks

[scuola]

I think Detroit is rigged to benefit the Big 3. We have to jump in our jalopies to drive out to a mall with a gigantic parking lot to buy clothes and goods.

Detroit is rigged the same as every other city in the nation except for urban cores or glitzy expensive "new urbanist" communities that most of us can't dream of affording anyway [[and do you really want to take a train to buy "clothes?"). There's no urban utopia and there never was--1920's America moved into cars and changed the way they live because cars were faster, more comfortable, and more convenient than mass transportation. You can say we need mass transit for the environment or for civic responsibility or to beat the traffic jams from 7 to 9am, but the car's big selling points are still there and always will be.

[DetroitDad]

Detroit is rigged the same as every other city in the nation except for urban cores or glitzy expensive "new urbanist" communities that most of us can't dream of affording anyway [[and do you really want to take a train to buy "clothes?"). There's no urban utopia and there never was--1920's America moved into cars and changed the way they live because cars were faster, more comfortable, and more convenient than mass transportation. You can say we need mass transit for the environment or for civic responsibility or to beat the traffic jams from 7 to 9am, but the car's big selling points are still there and always will be.

Not when we're out of oil and are too poor of a country to maintain our overly expensive and wasteful road systems. It wont be long now before there are more potholes than road.

[Warrenite84]

In reading this thread, much of this discussion has revolved around specialized retail as if no other forces are at play. The upcoming streetcar/LRT plans will boost pedestrian traffic that can be taken advantage of by everyday retail, specialized retail, and residential investment. The operative word here is convience. When you make it convient to Detroiters to shop nearby, they won't have a need to shop in the burbs so often,[[competition).

Could this lessen the need for huge parking lots and create the urban density required to be self sustaining? Maybe. The biggest problem we face right now is uncertainty. Once we see auto demand increase due to exhaustion of the used car supply, I expect people will commit to buying items they put off.

[Novine]

"Detroit is rigged the same as every other city in the nation except for urban cores or glitzy expensive "new urbanist" communities that most of us can't dream of affording anyway [[and do you really want to take a train to buy "clothes?")."

Most places like Detroit around the country offer people a range of transportation options. Don't have a car or don't want to spend money on having a car? You can ride a bus or light rail or subway to get from point A to point B. Live in downtown Chicago and want to get to O'Hare? You can do it by rail. You can live in the Chicago suburbs and still get to downtown without a car. Same for the suburbs of New York, DC, San Fran and most any major US city. Not Detroit.