Prince Fielder signing - Ilitch wants a WS victory

**Enduro** · January-27-12, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

Good plan. Maybe after watching a few games, you will know how to spell the names of the owner and the Right Fielder, that Magglio Ordonez is not a Tiger, that Fielder is actually a pretty good 1Bman, that Martinez is not a defensive liability by virtue of the fact that he doesn't play any position on defense, and that your "okay at 2nd" is going to be a platoon of Santiago & Raburn at that key defensive position.

Psst. We did over pay for Mags when we first signed him and when we resigned him it was a joke. We over payed for Guillen too. Prince Fielder led the NL in errors at 1B and Cabby lead the AL. And Santiago is okay at 2nd. No better. And Martinez plays 1B and catcher when he's not DHing. So, you get your facts straight. We can only have so many DHs on a team.

Edit: Oh and Delmon Young sucks in the field too. So that's 4 DHs on one team. We also over payed for Inge's bratty butt. I know this team as well as anyone, even if I don't bother to learn how to spell their names. My statements are accurate.

**Enduro** · January-27-12, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

There's no question this is the biggest free agent signing in Detroit sports history, but I just don't see how this deal makes any sense. Maybe because Illitch is older he doesn't really care about the long-term future of the franchise moreso than the next year or two?

Detroit isn't a team like the Yankees. They can go out and do a massive, long-term signing, but that signing will drastically curtail their financial flexibility over the long term.

So this signing means that the Tigers have basically no financial wiggle room for many years, even if attendance and revenues are spectacular. And they spent their money on someone who is destined to become a DH hitter. Is a DH hitter, even a spectacular one, ever worth 9 years and 24 million a year?

That type of money is only "worth it" for a pitcher like Verlander. Maybe a perennial MVP hitter/Gold Glove fielder would be worth it [[like a Pujols or younger ARod). A DH would never, ever, be worth it, because they're just not contributing at the same level, even if they were to be the best slugger in baseball.

If there isn't a WS in the near term, this may be one of the worst signings in professional sports history, not because of the signing itself, but on the long-term financial health of the Tigers.

So, for example, when Verlander's contract ends, assuming he'll continue his dominance, there's no possibly way the Tigers can sign him. Or, if a major player goes down this season [[which pretty much always happens), there will be no option for a major midseason trade.

In the very short term, though, this should be a great thing for the organization. They now have huge buzz and massive expectations. They could break records for Comerica attendance.

I agree, the only way this makes sense is if they make a trade next year when VMart comes back. It's the same problem the Pistons had in '10 and '11. Too many of the same type of player. Trade Cabby or Prince [[if you can!) next year and get some speed in the outfield or defense in the infield. This team is not made for this stadium.

Ravine · January-27-12, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Enduro

Psst. We did over pay for Mags when we first signed him and when we resigned him it was a joke. We over payed for Guillen too. Prince Fielder led the NL in errors at 1B and Cabby lead the AL. And Santiago is okay at 2nd. No better. And Martinez plays 1B and catcher when he's not DHing. So, you get your facts straight. We can only have so many DHs on a team.

Edit: Oh and Delmon Young sucks in the field too. So that's 4 DHs on one team. We also over payed for Inge's bratty butt. I know this team as well as anyone, even if I don't bother to learn how to spell their names. My statements are accurate.

Look, I responded to what you wrote.

You referred to Magglio as though he was still here. You didn't say that he was slow, etc.

Errors explain little about a guy's defensive ability unless you balance them against other defensive stats. Often, the best player at a given position has a lot of Errors. Think of it this way: if your 3Bman plants himself near the bag and allows anything not hit within 4 feet of him to bounce on past, leaves it for the SS to field, or makes no effort to grab fouls, that guy will not be charged with many Errors. If your 3Bman is Brandon Inge, you're going to see a lot of Errors, because Inge-- weak hitter that he often is-- goes after everything.
Still, I will say that while Prince has a rep for being a good 1Bman, we need to see that for ourselves. Pujols, Teixeira, & Votto are good at 1B.
I couldn't figure out how the hell you could say we are "OK at 2nd" when, unlike most other "contending" teams, we don't even have a 2Bman. Planning to rotate a couple of guys at 2B equals "we don't really have a 2Bman."
A look at the record does show that Martinez got in 32 starts at Catcher or 1B. That ain't much, and I swear that I don't recall more than 3 of them, but facts is facts, and while I was wrong on that one, you swung and missed quite a bit, and if you know the team so well, you know damned well that we have not really seen Santiago all that much at 2B, until 2011, and that saying we're "OK at 2B" can never be true of a team that lacks an everyday 2Bman. Our lack of a 2Bman is one of the few glaring flaws on the team.
Besides, how in the hell can you expect anyone to infer that you might know what you're talking about, when you critique the speed of a guy who isn't even here, anymore, misspell guys' names, and appear to be unable to recall just who it is that you think is "OK at 2B?"
Your statements were not "accurate."
Anyway, try to think of it this way: by signing Fielder, we got one of the game's best hitters to play 1B and, by so doing, replaced our tepid-hitting 3Bman, the guy who everyone loves to hate, with a guy who is an even better hitter than the guy we signed. Think of it that way and you won't feel like we just spent a pile of cash to fill the one position where we were already strong.

Occurrence · January-28-12, 01:29 AM

I bet we see grown men wearing Fielder jerseys at games this year now. That's my prediction.

**401don** · January-29-12, 11:42 AM

It should be interesting when Ilitch looks for public dollars to fund a new arena.

**Detroitrobert** · January-29-12, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

It should be interesting when Ilitch looks for public dollars to fund a new arena.

Yeah, that will be interesting. I can just picture it...in another 30 years when Comerica is getting old and they are thinking about replacing it. Ilitch will be going strong at 112 years of age, still looking for hand outs from the public.

**Detroitrobert** · January-29-12, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Enduro

Psst. We did over pay for Mags when we first signed him and when we resigned him it was a joke. We over payed for Guillen too. Prince Fielder led the NL in errors at 1B and Cabby lead the AL. And Santiago is okay at 2nd. No better. And Martinez plays 1B and catcher when he's not DHing. So, you get your facts straight. We can only have so many DHs on a team.

Edit: Oh and Delmon Young sucks in the field too. So that's 4 DHs on one team. We also over payed for Inge's bratty butt. I know this team as well as anyone, even if I don't bother to learn how to spell their names. My statements are accurate.

Martinez played in 26 games last year as a catcher because there was nobody else to play there to give Avila a break. He is a terrible catcher and after tearing his ACL, I will put good money on him never playing another game behind the plate. He played six games at first and I assume that was mostly in interleague play. If Martinez's knees hold up, I see him moving to right field.

Young's contract is up after this year so your contention that there are four DHs on the team is moot and further adds evidence to the theory that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

There was nothing wrongs with any signing of Ordonez and the only person that can say that he was overpaid is the person that paid him. Saying "We over paid for" anyone sounds it came out of your pocket. Unless your last name is Ilitch, you didn't do shit so stop saying "we". Ilitch has the right to pay whatever the fuck he wants to pay to get the players he wants here. X-post to "Mouse In My Pocket".

**partystore** · January-29-12, 02:41 PM

Impulse signing, but I'll take it -- gladly. I'd rather to have signed two $10M players than one $20+M, but this is a good problem to have. There's barely any room now for Brandon Inge, and because I'm not a middle-aged white female, that's OK w/ me.

**BShea** · January-30-12, 11:26 AM

The Tigers can absolutely afford Price Fielder. In 2012, his salary simply replaces Ordonez [[$10 million) and Carlos Guillen [[$13 million). There's no real net gain in the bottom line with Fielder. What ballooned the payroll from $107 million in 2011 to $127 million in 2012 [[so far) is Verlander's deal jumping up to $20.1 million, and a handful of smaller dealers and acquisitions.

V-Mart's $13 million salary this season is covered, at least in part, by insurance.

The Ilitches have a $4 billion empire. They can afford to spend like the Yankees, but don't need to. They will outspend everyone in the Central, if they want to.

Why? The owner can afford it comfortably, especially thanks to MLB's revenue sharing from Central Fund and from the 10-year FSD cable contract. Those two account for about $90 million for the team, before you even get to ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, parking, etc.

Here is my breakdown in Crain's of the Ilitch business holdings and how the Tigers are financed: Link.

**Bham1982** · January-30-12, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by BShea

The Tigers can absolutely afford Price Fielder. In 2012, his salary simply replaces Ordonez [[$10 million) and Carlos Guillen [[$13 million).

The Tigers lost considerable money last year.

So saying that they can "afford" Fielder by continuing to operate deep in the red is quite a stretch.

And, much more important, the Fielder deal is for nine years, and therefore prevents salary flexibility over the next decade.

Heck, this will screw the Tigers even next year. The luxury tax jumps in 2013, and they'll be back on the hook for V-Mart's salary.

**Detroitrobert** · January-30-12, 04:23 PM

If you were a multi-billionaire huge baseball fan that jsut so happened to own your favorite childhood team and you were near the end of your life, how much of your own money would you spend to win a World Series? I'd sacrifice very small percentage of my billions.

**BShea** · January-30-12, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The Tigers lost considerable money last year.

So saying that they can "afford" Fielder by continuing to operate deep in the red is quite a stretch.

And, much more important, the Fielder deal is for nine years, and therefore prevents salary flexibility over the next decade.

Heck, this will screw the Tigers even next year. The luxury tax jumps in 2013, and they'll be back on the hook for V-Mart's salary.

They're "screwed" only if ownership has a predetermined salary threshold. There is no cap, and the Ilitches have the ability to easily subsidize their sports spending for as long as they choose to do so. There is no reason to think they will not continue to spend [[and I suspect they still may make a bid for the Cuban outfielder for $8 million a year, or more).

When you're collecting $4 billion-plus a year, you have flexibility. They have a large market ownership behind them. Unlike, say, Cleveland, which has a true finite ability when it comes to payroll. Whatever the Ilitches choose to spend or not spend is purely because of a comfort level than by limits on how much money is coming in.

The Tigers will collect more this season from a boost in season ticket sales, suite sales and corporate sponsorships. Spending on players like Fielder has excited the fan base. Look at the attendance graph with my story -- the more they spend, the more fans come to games, at least since 1993. And as an added benefit, the economy is improving locally.

Ravine · January-31-12, 12:52 AM

Bshea, thanks for bringing those factors to light.
Some of the Tiger Faithless seem to believe that this signing was carried out impulsively, as though they-- not Ilitch or Dombrowski-- are the only ones stopping to consider potential future ramifications of the deal.

**Gistok** · January-31-12, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitrobert

If you were a multi-billionaire huge baseball fan that jsut so happened to own your favorite childhood team and you were near the end of your life, how much of your own money would you spend to win a World Series? I'd sacrifice very small percentage of my billions.

Why, are you planning on taking it with you??

Or should they do like the Dodge heirs did... they nickeled and dimed away their family fortune.

Mike can do as he pleases....

**Detroitrobert** · January-31-12, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Why, are you planning on taking it with you??

What does not being able to take anything with you have to do with wanting to have the feeling of being a world champion before you die?

Originally Posted by Gistok

Mike can do as he pleases....

No shit. That's what I've been saying. The 120 million he's spending this year, most if not all of which will be recouped, is a very small percentage of his billions. Do you even know anything about baseball?

Ravine · January-31-12, 03:10 AM

So harsh. AAAAAAAA

**partystore** · January-31-12, 11:50 PM

Hardly a "Tigers Faithless," Ravine. I think objectivity is fair. This is a monumental move -- for one player. Risk is inherent [[see Alfonso Soriano, etc.). Of course we're all excited to have Fielder's bat now, but in six-nine years? Who knows?! Maybe. I hope so! Don't you realize every fan is rightly entitled to question upper management?! Take some satisfaction poking holes in the logic of a billionaire. It's fun.

That said, I like our chances for a World Series.

**Gistok** · February-01-12, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitrobert

What does not being able to take anything with you have to do with wanting to have the feeling of being a world champion before you die?

No shit. That's what I've been saying. The 120 million he's spending this year, most if not all of which will be recouped, is a very small percentage of his billions. Do you even know anything about baseball?

I'm sorry, I thought you were saying something different than what you were... but it helps when you use complete sentences that don't lack ambiguity....

**Detroitrobert** · February-01-12, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I'm sorry, I thought you were saying something different than what you were... but it helps when you use complete sentences that don't lack ambiguity....

I'm sorry you didn't know that the Tigers' payroll was a small percentage of Ilitch's overall wealth, and I'm sorry that you probably didn't even know what the team payroll was either. I know that I forgot to include the article "A" in the sentence, "I'd sacrifice very small percentage of my billions." but for those of us that know what the hell we're talking about regarding the Tigers, I think the point was clear. In future discussions on the team, I'll try to keep in mind your comprehending deficiencies on the subject.

bartock · February-01-12, 10:20 AM

Yikes things are getting mean. I'm with partystore on the B. Inge thing.

**Gistok** · February-01-12, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitrobert

I'm sorry you didn't know that the Tigers' payroll was a small percentage of Ilitch's overall wealth, and I'm sorry that you probably didn't even know what the team payroll was either. I know that I forgot to include the article "A" in the sentence, "I'd sacrifice very small percentage of my billions." but for those of us that know what the hell we're talking about regarding the Tigers, I think the point was clear. In future discussions on the team, I'll try to keep in mind your comprehending deficiencies on the subject.

Since you've only been here less than a month, I'll save you the trouble....

But when you mention that "you'd sacrifice very small percentage of my billions".... well that doesn't make things very clear, now does it? The article mentions millions and millions... but what would YOUR small percentage mean? That was the gist of my comments. It could be $100 or $100 million? Regardless of the topic at hand, whatever your "small percentage" is, is an unknown. And that's why I made my comment. Apparently you meant millions and millions...

**Detroitrobert** · February-01-12, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

The article mentions millions and millions... but what would YOUR small percentage mean? That was the gist of my comments. It could be $100 or $100 million? Regardless of the topic at hand, whatever your "small percentage" is, is an unknown.

Once again, the small percentage is unknown to you because you don't know anything about the topic.