Council member considers closing gas stations, restaurants overnight

**Wesley Mouch** · January-25-12, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by 1953

This is getting absurd.

First, they ban parking on the street, so bad guys don't steal cars.

Now, they want to ban eating and fueling late, so bad guys don't commit crimes at restaurants and gas stations.

Next, they want to ban living in Detroit, to prevent home invasions.

Totally insane.

Might work. Since living in Detroit is proven to be a health hazard, like smoking -- it make sense and perhaps we have an obligation to ban living in Detroit. I think the Democratic party can get behind this.

**antongast** · January-25-12, 11:26 AM

Such victim-blaming bullshit. I know who isn't getting my vote next election.

**Bham1982** · January-25-12, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Crime is about opportunity and criminals won't hold up crowded gas stations. The criminals are more likely to change their targets than they are to rob crowded stations.

Gas stations aren't uniformly busy throughout the day, nor are they uniformly empty throughout the night.

I think that criminals would continue to be criminals, and would strike at the most opportune times available to them.

**hamtown mike** · January-25-12, 11:38 AM

Let's just close the city between dusk and dawn.

I'll entertain the 11 o'clock thing if I have increased rights to pump a few slugs into someone on my property beginning at 11:01

Measures like this are a signal of 'giving up.'

Make crime not pay. Use a firearm in the commission of a crime? No public funds for you forever. And while you're serving time you can rest assured it will be hard time. Like road crew hard time-Cool hand Luke style. You get $1 and hour. Prisons will no longer have a commissary so all those dollars go into an account. You get a nice little bundle when you'r released. Spend it wisely, because now that you are a convicted felon, you no longer have a place in line at the spigot.

**Gannon** · January-25-12, 11:44 AM

The police have the ability to patrol these places...heck, when Godbee had his initiative to nab 600 street-level nickel-bag dealers [[not how he sold it, but if you remember he only 'got' something like 6 cars and a few guns and very little money...nowhere NEAR the real suppliers, and not even close to a positive solution), they were PARKED all night at the most suspect gas stations.

One I am quite sure actually SUPPLIES the boys who peddle little bags-o'-green...and another I've NEVER seen gasoline actually pumped at, LOL!

This is purely idiotic...and reveals the lack of critical thinking and solution-finding by those in charge of this town.

Cheers,
John

**old guy** · January-25-12, 12:07 PM

Aren't areas that have the least amount of traffic and closed businesses the most susceptible to crime. Seems like the number of B&E's would jump too. People always adapt.

**detroitsgwenivere** · January-25-12, 12:45 PM

This is the dumbest idea I've heard in the name of crime prevention yet. And coming from "Mr. Police State" himself, i'm not surprised. What's next? Curfew for anyone on the street between 11 and 5?

I can't wait for the next election.

**j to the jeremy** · January-25-12, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

You've got it backwards stylin...it's the thugs that are bashing in innocent black men's heads and murdering people, not the police. Obviously, all you care about is race and the rights of the criminals in your city, not safety, which in my opinion, would be top priority.
As far as ME feeling safe....I do...because I live in a community where people care about each other, we look out for each other, our police force is effective and they don't take the crap that the thugs hand out. Believe me, no one's rights are violated either...the thugs are all protected against nazi type tactics.

Except that STRESS also beat innocent black kids. Something like STRESS in basic nature, but without the racial overtones and civil rights infringement, and "give me that corner", etc might be OK but obviously suggesting a return to that program won't go over well in Detroit. How do you distinguish "thugs" from desparate poor people? Is it racial or is everyone who goes into crime a "thug"? Can I be a "thug" if I move to Sterling Heights and rob gas stations, but am white?

**Wesley Mouch** · January-25-12, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by old guy

Aren't areas that have the least amount of traffic and closed businesses the most susceptible to crime. Seems like the number of B&E's would jump too. People always adapt.

Yes, but they might adapt in ways good for the public.

Good reading here from The New Yorker -- a place where crime has dropped precipitously. Might be some lessons to be learned from their success.

"

By “supply side criminology,” he means the conservative theory of crime that claimed that social circumstances produced a certain net amount of crime waiting to be expressed; if you stopped it here, it broke out there. The only way to stop crime was to lock up all the potential criminals. In truth, criminal activity seems like most other human choices—a question of contingent occasions and opportunity. Crime is not the consequence of a set number of criminals; criminals are the consequence of a set number of opportunities to commit crimes. Close down the open drug market in Washington Square, and it does not automatically migrate to Tompkins Square Park. It just stops, or the dealers go indoors, where dealing goes on but violent crime does not."

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critic...#ixzz1kUgDy2Q3

**laphoque** · January-25-12, 01:19 PM

And they thought Detroit 1-8-7 made the city look bad. I know no sane person wants the job, but could we find some rational council-members?

I see STRESS talked up sometimes on here as having been effective. Except it lead directly to the riot. NYC still does have that kind of policing. Although their stats look good, they went up after juking of the stats was uncovered. [[BTW the This American Life episode about it is excellent.)

I think we need cops on the beat in the neighborhoods doing community outreach. Although I'd mostly like to see evidence-based policing strategies.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-25-12, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by laphoque

And they thought Detroit 1-8-7 made the city look bad. I know no sane person wants the job, but could we find some rational council-members?

I see STRESS talked up sometimes on here as having been effective. Except it lead directly to the riot. NYC still does have that kind of policing. Although their stats look good, they went up after juking of the stats was uncovered. [[BTW the This American Life episode about it is excellent.)

I think we need cops on the beat in the neighborhoods doing community outreach. Although I'd mostly like to see evidence-based policing strategies.

Did hear that story on 'Life'.

'Teaching to the Test' is what happens anywhere you measure things. I don't know how much the stats went up again, but the drop was huge -- so I don't think juicing is a factor.

Agree on cops on the beat. In NYC, they're out there -- visible. I can't recall seeing a Detroit cop 'out on beat'.

And then, a decade later, crime started falling: across the country by a standard measure of about forty per cent; in New York City by as much as eighty per cent. By 2010, the crime rate in New York had seen its greatest decline since the Second World War; in 2002, there were fewer murders in Manhattan than there had been in any year since 1900.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critic...#ixzz1kUncRoqS

**313WX** · January-25-12, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

They don't have that right hence why bars must close at 2am in Michigan.

Even that's technically unconstitutional.

**laphoque** · January-25-12, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't know how much the stats went up again, but the drop was huge -- so I don't think juicing is a factor.

I think the stats that year were slightly up that year. I wrote a paper on it and I'm trying to find where I got that info. Now they are just flat out refusing to release the stats... which I guess not releasing dubious stats is better that releasing lies. NYC = Disney Land?

**bailey** · January-25-12, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Originally Posted by iheartthed

They don't have that right hence why bars must close at 2am in Michigan

Even that's technically unconstitutional.

no. its not even remotely unconstitutional. these ordinances are tested under the rational basis test [[the lowest form of constitutional scrutiny). Under the rational basis test, the requirements of equal protection are satisfied when: [[1) the classification bears a reasonable relation to the legislative purpose sought to be affected; [[2) the members of the class are treated alike under similar circumstances and conditions; and, [[3) the classification rests on some reasonable basis.

you can have a debate about whether the various justifications for a 2am bar time [[people might be drunker at 3 or 4 instead of 2am and get into a car...blah blah) are actually "reasonable" but you're never going to win it because the licensing agency or the city can come up with an almost infinite number of rationally based rules that are reasonably related to furthering legitimate government purposes with regard to 2am last call.

What is unconstitutional is telling only Coney Islands [[not all restaurants) and only Gas Stations [[not 24 hr CVSs..etc) they have to close at 11.

**iheartthed** · January-25-12, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Gas stations aren't uniformly busy throughout the day, nor are they uniformly empty throughout the night.

They aren't but the criminals robbing gas stations choose their timing by playing the probability that it will be empty and witnesses will be few or nil. During natural waking hours a potential gas station robber has to worry about the chance that a store will be packed with customers and also passersby on the street might witness them fleeing. That's much less of a concern at 3am... And I don't have the stats at my fingertips but I'd bet money that most gas station robberies occur at night.

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think that criminals would continue to be criminals, and would strike at the most opportune times available to them.

Probably. But that place doesn't have to be Detroit.

**SWMAP** · January-25-12, 02:56 PM

What is unconstitutional is telling only Coney Islands [[not all restaurants) and only Gas Stations [[not 24 hr CVSs..etc) they have to close at 11
Maybe the DPD has statistical information about where/when robberies and life-threatening confrontations occur most often and those enterprises will be the ones that will be asked to shut down. You don't know. I think 24 hour operations that sell packaged liquor most of the night should be strictly limited. See my note above.

**Hypestyles** · January-25-12, 03:02 PM

I'd vote against it. Already, If council wants to bolster Detroit [[proper)'s status as a non-destination city for night life, there you go; one more reason for young people to leave.. to be low on gas in the city after 11 p.m. is going to get desperate if this is enacted.. it's bad enough that many/most bus lines shut down around 10 p.m., that's one reason I scarcely went out to bars/clubs when I didn't own a car yet.. didn't want to get stranded..

**Wild** · January-25-12, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

You have to understand....all Buy American wants is a gestapo like police force that will be all too willing bash in innocent black men's heads and maybe even chip in a body or two so HE feels safe...

I'm sorry, I don't agree with you. I'm Black and I live in this city and I feel the same way. Things have gotten too out of hand. At this point, I think that a STRESS type unit or the National Guard needs to be brought in.

**antongast** · January-25-12, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

They aren't but the criminals robbing gas stations choose their timing by playing the probability that it will be empty and witnesses will be few or nil. During natural waking hours a potential gas station robber has to worry about the chance that a store will be packed with customers and also passersby on the street might witness them fleeing. That's much less of a concern at 3am... And I don't have the stats at my fingertips but I'd bet money that most gas station robberies occur at night.

Probably. But that place doesn't have to be Detroit.

But goddamn it, I live here and sometimes I like to eat food late at night. It's not up to Gary Brown to tell me what my "natural waking hours" should be, or when I'm allowed to be hungry in Detroit. If the police department, which I support with my taxes, can't get a handle on nighttime crime, that's their problem, not mine, and I shouldn't have to bear the brunt of it.

**ResurgetCineribus** · January-25-12, 03:32 PM

Are we so sure removing the opportunity for crime equates to an overall reduction in crime? Can we safely assume a potential criminal will remain idle now that we've removed his pathway for crime. I'm sure the factors that drove a person to commit a crime late night at a restaurant are still present even though the restaurant is now closed. Can we at least try to pull our heads out of the sand?

**Detroitnerd** · January-25-12, 03:37 PM

With the parking ban near Cliff Bell's and the proposed business curfew, it's sort of an odd peek into the mind of Detroit law enforcement.

Can I be forgiven for thinking that Detroit cops don't see criminals so much as a problem as all of us people with wallets and cars to steal who aren't personally escorted through our fair city by police?

**bailey** · January-25-12, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

What is unconstitutional is telling only Coney Islands [[not all restaurants) and only Gas Stations [[not 24 hr CVSs..etc) they have to close at 11
Maybe the DPD has statistical information about where/when robberies and life-threatening confrontations occur most often and those enterprises will be the ones that will be asked to shut down. You don't know. I think 24 hour operations that sell packaged liquor most of the night should be strictly limited. See my note above.

Then you have to illustrate to a court [[when the entire city's restaruantuers and gas station owners sue Detroit) why closing those operations is a better solution THEN JUST HAVING A FUCKING RESPONSIVE AND PROACTIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

all liquor sales end at 2am. no 24 hour operation can sell liquor past 2am.

**SWMAP** · January-25-12, 03:44 PM

Hard for the police to be proactive about crime. The institution itself is highly reactive and most civil rights laws prohibit "proactive" activities. But maybe I'm wrong. What would be "proactive against late-night violent crime?

**Switchmanjim** · January-25-12, 03:44 PM

I think even a S.T.R.E.S.S unit would be hard pressed to fix the current situation in Detroit.

**bailey** · January-25-12, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Hard for the police to be proactive about crime. The institution itself is highly reactive and most civil rights laws prohibit "proactive" activities. But maybe I'm wrong. What would be "proactive against late-night violent crime?

Oh i dont know.. if they've identified the problem businesses as you say...maybe STEPPING UP THE PATROLLING OF THE AREA!?! you know, the crazy out of the box thinking that most other first world cities in this country have figured out how to do?