SMART system's slow collapse

**Novine** · January-18-12, 08:58 PM

While Snyder continues to push BRT in his State of the State speech, the SMART system is slowly falling apart. Farmington votes to opt-out of SMART and Farmington Hills may be next.

http://farmington-mi.patch.com/artic...art-bus-system

http://farmington-mi.patch.com/artic...-to-dump-smart

**Russix** · January-18-12, 10:52 PM

I think it's pointless to speak about BRT or LRT without a functional regional transit system that isn't one lug nut loose of flying completely apart.

**Dexlin** · January-19-12, 06:27 AM

Honestly, what is the end game, here? Without the regional transit authority to coordinate transit as it exist [[i.e. regionally), both SMART and DDOT are quickly coming up upon their death by a thousand cuts. How many more fiscal years do both of these make it through before this region of 4.3 million literally has no more of our already meager and tattered mass transit, period? I mean, Farmington is a tiny community, but you keep niggling away at the ridership and a system that already doesn't make much sense finally collapses under its own weight.

The region shits around and b%tches about people not having jobs, but when they get one, we pull out many of their only realistic means of getting to this jobs. This cycle is cannablizing the entire region.

**Zacha341** · January-19-12, 06:51 AM

^^^^^ Yep, if you don't have a piece of a car for conveyance in this area you are toast!

**Scottathew** · January-19-12, 08:43 AM

We need to get rid of SMART and DDOT, replace it with a regional system, and FUND IT.

**casscorridor** · January-19-12, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by 48091

We need to get rid of SMART and DDOT, replace it with a regional system, and FUND IT.

This is precisely the wrong sort of thinking, with disastrous consequences. Now, I understand your intention... that the new regional "system" will be equal to that of SMART and DDOT. But it is going about it in the wrong way. Because Michigan is so backwards, and refuse to look at what other regions have done, our leaders think it is a good thing to choke SMART to death and cut DDOT. But in other cities, existing transit services are simply overseen by the new authority [[they might change names, coloring, etc to make a unified service), they don't eliminate the services and start from scratch! WTF?

**DetroitPlanner** · January-19-12, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

This is precisely the wrong sort of thinking, with disastrous consequences. Now, I understand your intention... that the new regional "system" will be equal to that of SMART and DDOT. But it is going about it in the wrong way. Because Michigan is so backwards, and refuse to look at what other regions have done, our leaders think it is a good thing to choke SMART to death and cut DDOT. But in other cities, existing transit services are simply overseen by the new authority [[they might change names, coloring, etc to make a unified service), they don't eliminate the services and start from scratch! WTF?

Remember you collectively are the electorate. You [[not just CC but a collective you) should be contacting all of your political representatives.

I would agree. Last thing we need to do is toss both out and start anew. An authority's chief role would be to provide adequete funding for a rational system. Since we don't have one, this is what we have ended up with. The RTCC does not see themselves in that role.

**Scottathew** · January-19-12, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

This is precisely the wrong sort of thinking, with disastrous consequences. Now, I understand your intention... that the new regional "system" will be equal to that of SMART and DDOT. But it is going about it in the wrong way. Because Michigan is so backwards, and refuse to look at what other regions have done, our leaders think it is a good thing to choke SMART to death and cut DDOT. But in other cities, existing transit services are simply overseen by the new authority [[they might change names, coloring, etc to make a unified service), they don't eliminate the services and start from scratch! WTF?

I completely agree with you. I was way too concise with how I stated my opinion. We need a regional authority to take over the assets and routes of DDOT and SMART. Detroit should be compensated for the assets they currently own.

**Mikeg** · January-20-12, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by 48091

I completely agree with you. I was way too concise with how I stated my opinion. We need a regional authority to take over the assets and routes of DDOT and SMART. Detroit should be compensated for the assets they currently own.

And who "takes over" their liabilities? Any compensation should be calculated after taking into account any assumed liabilities.

**cramerro** · January-20-12, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by 48091

I completely agree with you. I was way too concise with how I stated my opinion. We need a regional authority to take over the assets and routes of DDOT and SMART. Detroit should be compensated for the assets they currently own.

How do you anticipate that a regional authority taking over the assets and routes is the magic bullet here? There is plenty of factual evidence that 99% of the shortcomings of both systems [[especially SMART) are related to a lack of funding. This is confrimed by the fact that even the FTA wouldn't give us the light rail funding without a regional authority that has the power to generate additional funding streams for transit. While the systems are not what they should be, the reason lies primarily in the failure of the City and counties to provide adequate funding.

Also, why should Detroit be compensated and not the counties? That's a strange way of putting things. Both of the agencies have used thier local funding streams [[City general fund or suburban millage) to fund thier operations, and both have also recieved tens of millions in Federal and State funds each year to help with capital expenses and preventive maintenance.

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

... They [[NYC, San Fran) have more than buses which is why don't have the problems that Detroit and the region has. You will not convince people to park their cars to ride a bus and the leaders of this region and Snyder needs to realize that. SMART is drowning because in the end, it's just a bus and bus-only public transportation is so 20th century.

[{I apologize for the convenient oversight of "than" in my original post... my edited version is much more thorough anyway}]... there are many more reasons why Detroit and the region has the problems it has related to transit. Funding [[!!), land use patterns [[including employment and housing location and density), cheap/free parking, development character [[suburban style setbacks and auto-oriented development), and more. It isn't just becuase there are no trains - which is what you and dozens of other posts are implying: build a 9 mile train from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile in the City and POOF everyone in the region will ride the great regional transit system. Hell in 20 years once the alternatives analysis is done and the funding is made available for the next 6+ miles to Maple Road, a whole 6 communities will have some of their residents within 1/2 mile of this great rail system... errr... single LINE fed by BUSES.

SMART and DDOT are drowning because they don't have adequate funding to buy more buses and pay people to operate and maintain them. Both agencies have gone through a series of cuts over the last few years, due primarily to sharply declining revenues: City budget from the general fund, SMART draw from property taxes on declining home values, and both reduced Federal and State funding.

Even with the cuts in 2009, SMART was still posting record ridership in 2010, with only a small decline in 2011. The 2011 decline was likely due to a retreat of gas prices, which in turn demonstrates a demand for the transit system by choice riders who can chose to ride or not ride based on the price of gasoline.

The recent service reduction was required to balance the budget, and not the result of underutilized routes. We need a regional transit authority to increase funding available for transit and have someone "in charge" of coordinating all the services to serve the region, not because SMART or DDOT are incompetent and unwilling to do better.

**iheartthed** · January-20-12, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by cramerro

... so, these other places "have MORE buses which is why they don't have the problems that Detroit and the region has"... but SMART [[and I'll assume DDOT?) are drowning because they are bus-only?

He said "more than buses"...

**R8RBOB** · January-19-12, 11:58 PM

I know I said this before but I will say it again. Public transportation is a need and a choice.

The need is for those who do not have have automobiles to get around. Either they can't afford a car or their license is suspended or they just don't how to drive. These are the ones who need public transportation because without it they are trapped.

The choice is for those who wish to park their automobiles and let someone else do the driving. Sometimes you just want to reduce the wear and tear or save some money on gas or you just want to be out in the public. People who choose public transportation do it knowing that they don't have to depend on it.

In places like San Francisco, Chicago and New York, people choose public transportation because the traffic sucks but they could still drive if they wanted to. In Metro Detroit, people will not choose public transportation because no one is going to choose to ride a bus if they don't have to unlike the aforementioned cities. They have more than buses which is why don't have the problems that Detroit and the region has. You will not convince people to park their cars to ride a bus and the leaders of this region and Snyder needs to realize that. SMART is drowning because in the end, it's just a bus and bus-only public transportation is so 20th century.

**Bham1982** · January-23-14, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

SMART is drowning because in the end, it's just a bus and bus-only public transportation is so 20th century.

Then I guess the entire U.S., except for NYC, and DC, is "so 20th century". Those are the only two U.S. metros where rail passengers outnumber bus passengers.

**Gistok** · January-23-14, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Then I guess the entire U.S., except for NYC, and DC, is "so 20th century". Those are the only two U.S. metros where rail passengers outnumber bus passengers.

You do know that you're arguing with a year old post, don't you?

**chicagoforlife** · January-25-14, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

You do know that you're arguing with a year old post, don't you?

Don't you mean two years?

**Gistok** · January-25-14, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by chicagoforlife

Don't you mean two years?

Duh! Yeah... I think I lost a year in somewhere on the space/time continuum...

**samsonov** · January-24-14, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by That Great Guy

With the SMART Property Tax Renewal just weeks away, next August, it is important to educate the voters.

NO means the tax is capped, everyone keeps their bus service and job including all SMART employees. Federal Laws prevail over State and County.

YES means we build the Multi Billion Dollar freeways with the exact same money once used for public bus service.

Google

The abolition of state revenue sharing for mass transit in Michigan

Umm... does anybody know what That Great Guy is going on about?

**Gistok** · January-24-14, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by samsonov

Umm... does anybody know what That Great Guy is going on about?

Ummmmm.... welcome to the forum Samsonov! We used to have a guy on this forum that did nothing but talk about transportation... named Trainman.. I think he's been reincarnated....

**chicagoforlife** · January-25-14, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Then I guess the entire U.S., except for NYC, and DC, is "so 20th century". Those are the only two U.S. metros where rail passengers outnumber bus passengers.

The reason that a city like Chicago has more bus passengers than rail passengers is because the bus system covers the entire area. The CTA L only covers 222 miles of track, the CTA bus system covers 2,230 miles on over 140 routes with 12,000 bus stops. And even then the total numbers aren't that far off, the L carries about 730,000 passengers every weekday while the bus carries about 930,000 passengers every weekday, that doesn't count METRA or PACE.

**Hypestyles** · January-20-12, 04:28 PM

has john hertel responded to this latest news? hmm..

**cramerro** · January-23-12, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

has john hertel responded to this latest news? hmm..

http://www.hometownlife.com/article/...it-still-SMART

Posted in the Freep, Hometown Life, and MLive.

**Danny** · January-23-12, 01:34 PM

Go out to Farmington Hills City Hall folks. For the city council is may vote to opt out SMART busses from their main roads tonight!

**Zaiko** · January-20-12, 05:52 PM

Folks,

Please put your name into this face book page or give us a way of contacting you. We're working on coalition building to create the groundswell for transit. As Roosevelt told new deal people in 1932, make me do it. We need the same for bing, snyder and obama.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/Light...8755819806904/

You should also come to the TRU meeting with picket signs so Dennis Schornack, the Snyder point man for transit, can see how many people want what. Monday Jan 30. Check their website for details.