Life imitating art? Part 2

[ccbatson]

It is repeatedly pointed out in "The Fountainhead" that Reardon Metal is the highest quality [[objectively) and lowest price. Alternative energy is no such thing, nor does it have the potential to be so until, and unless the market forces make it so [[over oil). Similarly, John Galt's generator is highest quality and yield at lowest cost....see the pattern? Capitalism requires that the result of a market system is what? Correct, the best product/service at the lowest price.

I am surprised that you would make this error, it is such a simple an obvious concept.

[Lorax]

You guys can't even get it right amongst yourselves.

If any of you read the various critiques and reviews of Rand's writings, and not try and dissect hers as has been done ad nauseum, then you may get somewhere.

If you would like to turn your book reports in to the professor, I'm sure you'll be allowed to debate them next class.

[Stosh]

It is repeatedly pointed out in "The Fountainhead" that Reardon Metal is the highest quality [[objectively) and lowest price. Alternative energy is no such thing, nor does it have the potential to be so until, and unless the market forces make it so [[over oil). Similarly, John Galt's generator is highest quality and yield at lowest cost....see the pattern? Capitalism requires that the result of a market system is what? Correct, the best product/service at the lowest price.

I am surprised that you would make this error, it is such a simple an obvious concept.

Fine, using the lowest cost analogy, then all the producers now reside in China, and all the best and finest products are sold at dollar stores. I see the pattern quite well, Rand-bot.

Highest quality? One aspires to always have the highest quality goods and services. It's obvious that there is no possible way that lowest cost and highest quality can be achieved at the same time. And the qualifier [[objectively) is quite useless in this argument, since it allows you an escape clause for every dissenting argument.

Rand's utopian constructs are, for the most part, useless in a real life situation. Unless you wish to enslave the lot of us, then perhaps lowest cost, and high quality can be achieved. It's happening in some parts of the world with prison labor. Like in all the "lowest cost" countries you can think of.

Try this on for size, CC. I know you won't read it, but maybe others will:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/04/human.trafficking/

[ccbatson]

Stosh....you miss the meaning of the phrase...lowest cost AND highest quality. Not one, or the other, both...that is the way it works.

[Stosh]

Stosh....you miss the meaning of the phrase...lowest cost AND highest quality. Not one, or the other, both...that is the way it works.

I'd love for you to attempt to quote me some concrete, verifiable examples of this concept. Outside of the labratory of Randian thought, of course. Real World. And with proof. Unless you do, there's no point in continuing this drivel. Score!

[ccbatson]

Sooo easy...Consider any purchases that you have made and why you chose the particular products or services...I am willing to wager that in just about every instance, when more than one choice presented themselves, best price AND best quality compelled you to make your choice.

[Stosh]

Not a concrete example from you, of course. Why am I not surprised?
Quality and costs are not absolutes. To quantify these constructs is impossible.
Objective thought would dictate this.

[Lorax]

Stosh has it right.

There is no proof that the choices we make end up in getting both quality and best price. There are many qualifiers.

If I'm deciding between brands of coffee in a store which is known to carry superb quality coffees, I probably have a large selection of coffees that are all considered high-end.

If I go to a regular supermarket, I have the choice of varying degrees of OK coffee, and maybe one high-end brand.

Since I'm am probably only shopping one of these stores, my choices are limited. If, as a consumer, my city or town has multiple choices, such as in New York City, Chicago, and my neighborhood has various places to buy varied goods from, then my choices are better, but I'd have to be wealthy to live there in the first place.

If only Walmart is available in your local municipality, then you have only what Walmart has to offer.

When monopolies are encouraged by federal policy drawn up by republicans [[i.e. libertarians, fascists, whatever) you get fewer choices. And fewer quality choices.

Have you ever tried to wash anything bought at Old Navy?
Their cheap, made in China clothing can't even withstand one washing. Sure, it's cheap to buy, but if you can't get more than a couple of wearings out of it, it ends up being expensive.

Try reading the book: "Walmart- The High Cost of Low Prices" and you'll better understand the concept.

[oladub]

Lorax says, "When monopolies are encouraged by federal policy drawn up by republicans [[i.e. libertarians, fascists, whatever) you get fewer choices."

Lorax, You continue to harbor bizarre notions about libertarians. Libertarians, think anarchy as a libertarian extreme, do not limit choices - by definition. Fewer choices are, however, often the product of governement regulations, licensing, and taxation. Last week, for instance, the House passed a bill, which as I understand it, will make it much more difficult for home sellers and purchasers to conduct land contract transactions. The bankers are thereby guaranteed more profit. If you want to talk about an example of economic fascism, that is a good one. It was primarily supported by Democrats - not libertarians.

Question) Hillary Clinton was offered a seat on the board of which company on the very day her husband was elected as the Governor of Arkansas?

Answer) WalMart

[Stosh]

Its a shame that these lefties can not see their oh so close resemblence to the blind followers that goose stepped tragicly across my beautiful homeland years ago .

No better than their zombie like communist genocidal brothers in arms .


Eh comrades?

And it a shame that your ancestors left that homeland to come here, apparently.

I didn't know that they invaded Rovealia. Must revisit the history books.

[Stosh]

Quit it Stosh. My groin is aching.

Then quit doing that, for Christ's sake, you'll go blind !!!

[Lorax]

Then quit doing that, for Christ's sake!!!

It's always about his groin, isn't it.

He probably got one from some guy in high school and never forgot how great it was, so we should re-label this thread "The Little Confessional"

Since when did I become your priest?

[ccbatson]

You want concrete? I bought a Mac last year, as I considered the purchase, I recognize that the ease of use, reliability, and longevity were superior to Windows based computers. I also realized that the cost is/was a little more than twice what the PC is/was. I then look at my prior make and realize that it had served well for 5 years and that the last PC I had [[I used/owned them both until the Intel based Macs allowed for killing 2 birds with one stone) had to be replaced in 2 years [[and was pretty miserable in the last 6 months. That brought the cost over time close to a wash, plus I would enjoy the advantages of the Mac over the PC for the entire duration of ownership and use....decision made.

Now THAT is concrete.

[Stosh]

You want concrete? I bought a Mac last year, as I considered the purchase, I recognize that the ease of use, reliability, and longevity were superior to Windows based computers. I also realized that the cost is/was a little more than twice what the PC is/was. I then look at my prior make and realize that it had served well for 5 years and that the last PC I had [[I used/owned them both until the Intel based Macs allowed for killing 2 birds with one stone) had to be replaced in 2 years [[and was pretty miserable in the last 6 months. That brought the cost over time close to a wash, plus I would enjoy the advantages of the Mac over the PC for the entire duration of ownership and use....decision made.

Now THAT is concrete.

Ease of use: subjective. Reliability: subjective. Longevity: subjective.

There's no possibly way you can quantify the three above qualities in relation to an overall experience, related to quality. each consumer has his/her own experiences. I've always found the OS in a Mac to be counter-intuitive.
Factor in the extreme lack of choice in software. Also the cost of what you have to buy.

Also factor in the excessive cost outlay for the Mac, your argument is flawed.

The initial premise was, Quality AND low cost. Not what you said.

[ccbatson]

Premises wrong....

Ease of use measured in the number of clicks required to accomplish a task and in the number of decision points [[fewer) encountered in the process. PC magazine did just such an analysis head to head Mac vs PC 3 years ago.

Reliability measured in the number and severity of freezes and crashes encountered per the same use...easily quantified and objective.

Longevity measured in the amount of time that said computer is functional [[fully, or otherwise, take your pick).

No way?? Are you insane? Daft? Or just too closed minded to see logical reasoning at work?

[Lorax]

No way?? Are you insane? Daft? Or just too closed minded to see logical reasoning at work?

Getting personal here, may have to report it, as name calling is forbidden per the forum rules.

[ccbatson]

I asked if this was the case, I didn't assert that it was...no name calling.

[Lorax]

I asked if this was the case, I didn't assert that it was...no name calling.

What did you mean by "daft, insane, closed minded?"

Looks like name calling to me.

You can't shape-shift your way out of this one, that only works for George Bush.

You're quick to report others and label them as getting personal, so in typical republican fashion you can dish it out....

[ccbatson]

There was a 4th option, the one that I intended, and not name calling...but you already know that.

[Lorax]

There was a 4th option, the one that I intended, and not name calling...but you already know that.

Enlighten me.

[Stosh]

Premises wrong....

Ease of use measured in the number of clicks required to accomplish a task and in the number of decision points [[fewer) encountered in the process. PC magazine did just such an analysis head to head Mac vs PC 3 years ago.

Reliability measured in the number and severity of freezes and crashes encountered per the same use...easily quantified and objective.

Longevity measured in the amount of time that said computer is functional [[fully, or otherwise, take your pick).

No way?? Are you insane? Daft? Or just too closed minded to see logical reasoning at work?

Lorax, I agree. He can dish it out, but he can't take it.

It's subjective, as I've stated before. Quality is a relative term, both are powered by Intel microprocessors. Both have hard drives. Memory, etc. Nothing special there.

Ease of use? I suppose that's the case in all sysyems. The main feature to me may be the OS. I'd think that if Apple engineered their software to run on a PC, all PC's would be equal to Macs. But they won't, Ever wonder why? Because once that happened, no one would buy Macs. And another silly thing would happen, that every hacker criminal on earth would write software to hack you silly.

[jams]

You're quick to report others and label them as getting personal, so in typical republican fashion you can dish it out....

Personal liberty is a fluid thing, it only applies to some.

Like government, it is best when it when you agree with it.

[rb336]

No way?? Are you insane? Daft? Or just too closed minded to see logical reasoning at work?

logical, of course, means throwing out legitimate, peer reviewed data as "coerced" or part of some secret agenda [[accusations that you can't back up with anything close to evidence) in favor of propoganda pieces by people without the proper scientific background with clear ties to companies/organizations with clear agendas [[inspite of those comments being shown to be not only wrong, but fraudulent as well in many cases.)

yes, that is what Bats means by logic, which explains, btw, where we get the term "batty"

[Stosh]

Just an informational item for all concerned... Seems that there's a hack that allows one to run OS X Leopard on a PC. So quality vs price enters a new realm. Which is better?

[ccbatson]

Peer reviewed consensus Rb...not data.