THE DEGC: needs a leash?

[kraig]

Structure? That's sort of funny to even call the underground parking garage a structure.

Man: See that structure?

Woman: Where?

Man: [[pointing) Over there!

Woman: What? That empty area?

Man: No! The structure!

Woman: That little shed?

Man: That's part of it, but no!

Woman: Those girders?

Man: No! The structure! Can't you recognize it?

Woman: No! You're crazy!

See, that's sort of how it works. Most people think of the Empire State Building as a structure, not NORAD.

Cute. But, if you can call an above ground structure a garage, why not a below ground structure? That was a slick way to provide tax credits to Compuware and Campus Martius and still have the Hudson's site available for development. Apply your same little joke to a New York Subway. I guess it's not really transportation to you, huh? LOL

[ghettopalmetto]

Cute. But, if you can call an above ground structure a garage, why not a below ground structure? That was a slick way to provide tax credits to Compuware and Campus Martius and still have the Hudson's site available for development. Apply your same little joke to a New York Subway. I guess it's not really transportation to you, huh? LOL

I'm morbidly curious to know how demolishing a 2 million square foot building and constructing a publicly-funded, underutilized, below-grade parking garage makes tax credits available for Compuware.

If George Jackson's Development-Through-Demolition Theory is correct, one would think that, given the economic boom at the end of the 20th century, at least one developer would have proposed at least a fucking hot dog stand on a prime site with oodles of free parking on-site. I mean, it's only been a scant 11 years.

[Detroitnerd]

Cute. But, if you can call an above ground structure a garage, why not a below ground structure? That was a slick way to provide tax credits to Compuware and Campus Martius and still have the Hudson's site available for development. Apply your same little joke to a New York Subway. I guess it's not really transportation to you, huh? LOL

Oh, come on, Kraig. That little sketch just illustrates how the idea runs against the grain of popular wisdom. Trust me, I'm aware of what you're talking about. [[Contrary to the song, the subway's more than a "hole in the ground.") But the point remains the same: To the majority of people, that unseen, underground garage isn't a structure. But to the people who dole out credits it is. Pretty "cute" on the part of the people who did that maneuvering, if you ask me.

[kraig]

I'm morbidly curious to know how demolishing a 2 million square foot building and constructing a publicly-funded, underutilized, below-grade parking garage makes tax credits available for Compuware.

If George Jackson's Development-Through-Demolition Theory is correct, one would think that, given the economic boom at the end of the 20th century, at least one developer would have proposed at least a fucking hot dog stand on a prime site with oodles of free parking on-site. I mean, it's only been a scant 11 years.

Compuware, Hudson's, Campus Martius and the parkland that Compuware sits on was all packaged together. Availability of the Hudson's site was not the goal, Compuware and Campus Martius was.

Detroitnerd, I did say LOL.

[Detroitnerd]

Oh. I can never tell if somebody's LOLling with me or LOLling at me.

[kraig]

good auto-related point kraig. bad other points. yup, we sure like to show our intent in big bang, 2 million square foot, terminal loss kind of ways. another "sign" for downtown business could have been a meaningful national rfp, or taking randy alexander seriously and working with him to make his proposal happen, or phasing the building over time, or revisioning a pared down hudson's, or working to get the ground floor activated again. karmanos was interested in actually retolling hudson's before he was shim, shammed and schwarzeneggered. the only good that came out of hudson's was major sponds for maryland's controlled demolition, a happy, bouncy archer with that symbolic "millstone" removed from his collective neck, and what still plays as one of the more morbidly exciting youtube vids available. to think that the seriously deleterious scar to downtown's fabric, which [[god forbid) also may have contributed to spectators' [[and roger weber's) risk factor for mesothelioma, was a good or absolutely necessary thing requires a serious chug a lug of detroit's silver bullet kool aid. terminal loss of urban basis at this scale requires that much longer a gestation period for a rebound. um, so when is that prime time city block, with thousands of attached parking spaces actually going to get redeveloped? it's been vacant longer than tiger stadium. yeah, we're about three or four decades behind the rest of the world and losing out every day...

Yeah, bad other points. I guess none of those things I mentioned exist and the Super Bowl, Final Four and MLB All-Star game didn't happen either.

On the Flip Side to your argument. Ford Auditorium is still there and just flat out useless after 19 or 20 years of being "saved". Tell Randy Alexander if he's serious about doing projects in Detroit he should go pitch his idea to the administrative branch and not the legislative branch, like he did here.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yeah, bad other points. I guess none of those things I mentioned exist and the Super Bowl, Final Four and MLB All-Star game didn't happen either.

No one is denying any of those things happened, but it wasn't because of the Hudson's demolition, as you naively claim.

That's like saying strippers are gonna show up at your house because you got your car off the blocks and the refrigerator off the porch, when in reality, they showed because you PAID them to show up.

[kraig]

No one is denying any of those things happened, but it wasn't because of the Hudson's demolition, as you naively claim.

That's like saying strippers are gonna show up at your house because you got your car off the blocks and the refrigerator off the porch, when in reality, they showed because you PAID them to show up.

I can't believe I'm responding to this one. If the car is off the blocks, I can move it so they'll have a place to park. Now that the fridge is off the porch, they can walk through the door it was blocking.

Just because you're losing arguments on two threads doesn't mean you have to lose your mind GP. LMFAO.

[R8RBOB]

Yeah, bad other points. I guess none of those things I mentioned exist and the Super Bowl, Final Four and MLB All-Star game didn't happen either.

On the Flip Side to your argument. Ford Auditorium is still there and just flat out useless after 19 or 20 years of being "saved". Tell Randy Alexander if he's serious about doing projects in Detroit he should go pitch his idea to the administrative branch and not the legislative branch, like he did here.

Ah yes, Ford Auditorium!!!! A venue that should have been razed years ago. [[Right now the supporters of Tiger Stadium are me a supporter of vacant lots.)

Coleman Young had the wrong idea of having another skyscraper on the riverfront but he was right about the city not needing Ford Auditorium. The only reason why Ford Auditorium still stands is because of the name. [[for the record, I graduated out of Ford Auditorium 20 years ago)

[detourdetroit]

frankly, as great as having the final four, stupor...oops, i mean super bowl or all star game were, i'd rather we would have used our sudden urges for regional cooperation to actually make meaningful progress towards regional solutions to the endemic and deep-seated economic and socio-cultural issues that hold us back on a daily basis.

while undoubtedly serving as deadlines for getting stuff done [[and providing impetus for some good DEGC work), the short term rationalizations that were used to eliminate the statlers and mad-lens of the world were pretty petty and ridiculous.

ford auditorium should be creatively reimagined and potentially altered, even dramatically. it's important as an elemental part of the saarinen's master plan [[at least i think it was his), but was never impressive acoustically. even if it had to go with a funded, alternative vision, i would be ok with that, but i think a creative solution could happen.

the continued illogic of hudson's befuddles me. people, please keep in mind that hudson's could yet be standing today even WITH compuware [[on ye old kern's site) and its mega garage [[on ye old crowley's site), as well as our beloved 200 year-late public square, good 'ole campus martius.

yes, the machiavellian backroom reality of detroit would have been a better approach for alexander. getting a hearing in front of council for buildings, even if they support the cause, has become essentially a kiss of death. not that it makes it right or progressive or creative or forward thinking or rational or anything like that. it was pretty clear by the time alexander was really making his case, iceman marantette and the invisible hands of taubman's past dealings insured that archer & co. would never be interested in an alternative path.

[ghettopalmetto]

I can't believe I'm responding to this one. If the car is off the blocks, I can move it so they'll have a place to park. Now that the fridge is off the porch, they can walk through the door it was blocking.

Just because you're losing arguments on two threads doesn't mean you have to lose your mind GP. LMFAO.

Well, you can treat this all like a little petulant game of one-upsmanship and "I told you so", if you wish. But the truth is, you don't know a God damned thing about what's involved in a building project.

[iheartthed]

The state moved from the state's facility on Howard Street. That's been torn down and replaced by the new MGM Grand Hotel & Casino. So it hasn't been abandoned.

Detroitnerd, DPS moved into the New Center building across the street from the old GM building.

I thought MGM built on another site, so that building [[or lot) is still empty?

[Huggybear]

So... if it's not held by the mayor, the leash should be held by:

- A city council that cares nothing about the old days?
- A populace that doesn't care?
- A state agency?
- A self-appointed group of "preservationists?"

Two of the four non-status-quo options will lead to greater destruction. The third is outside the purview of the city charter and is guaranteed to cause even more city/outsider divisiveness. And the fourth is just as antidemocratic as anything in the present system. Can you think of anything that's not some permutation of these? If you can't, the current world might be the best of all possible options.

I agree. I have added accountability of agencies like the DEGC to my Charter Commission platform.

[Gistok]

The state moved from the state's facility on Howard Street. That's been torn down and replaced by the new MGM Grand Hotel & Casino. So it hasn't been abandoned.

Actually that's not the case... the State Office Building is still [[empty) on Howard St.... but it is WEST of the Lodge Fwy. It was supposed to come down for an FBI low rise "corporate campus", but the Feds backed out of that deal.

The permanent MGM Grand Casino moved to a mostly empty 25 acre site that only had 3 buildings... Fiona's Teahouse, 6 rowhouses, and a 4 story apartment building.

Also, the state moved their folks out of other Detroit locations, such as the Boulevard Building [[NE corner of Woodward & E. Grand Blvd.) into Cadillac Centre.

[Retroit]

Huggybear, in my naive opinion:
The leash of the DEGC/DDA should be held by the City Council and Mayor.
The leash of the City Council and Mayor should be held by the people.
And the Preservationists should run the Obedience School for the people. [[Translation: the Preservationist need to try and get the rest of the city as excited about preservation as they are.)

[iheartthed]

Actually that's not the case... the State Office Building is still [[empty) on Howard St.... but it is WEST of the Lodge Fwy. It was supposed to come down for an FBI low rise "corporate campus", but the Feds backed out of that deal.

The permanent MGM Grand Casino moved to a mostly empty 25 acre site that only had 3 buildings... Fiona's Teahouse, 6 rowhouses, and a 4 story apartment building.

Also, the state moved their folks out of other Detroit locations, such as the Boulevard Building [[NE corner of Woodward & E. Grand Blvd.) into Cadillac Centre.

Yeah, that's what I remember. And wasn't the old state office building a relatively new building? And isn't that area virtually deserted now in the way that New Center would have been had they not moved up there? It sounds like they just rearranged the chairs on the deck of the Titanic...

[Gistok]

From what we've been told [[on this Forum), the not too old "Michigan Executive Plaza" complex over on Howard west of the Lodge was really built on the cheap, and it would require a lot of work and money to bring it up to today's standards.

[kraig]

Well, you can treat this all like a little petulant game of one-upsmanship and "I told you so", if you wish. But the truth is, you don't know a God damned thing about what's involved in a building project.

You must be mad, huh?

[kraig]

frankly, as great as having the final four, stupor...oops, i mean super bowl or all star game were, i'd rather we would have used our sudden urges for regional cooperation to actually make meaningful progress towards regional solutions to the endemic and deep-seated economic and socio-cultural issues that hold us back on a daily basis.

while undoubtedly serving as deadlines for getting stuff done [[and providing impetus for some good DEGC work), the short term rationalizations that were used to eliminate the statlers and mad-lens of the world were pretty petty and ridiculous.

ford auditorium should be creatively reimagined and potentially altered, even dramatically. it's important as an elemental part of the saarinen's master plan [[at least i think it was his), but was never impressive acoustically. even if it had to go with a funded, alternative vision, i would be ok with that, but i think a creative solution could happen.

the continued illogic of hudson's befuddles me. people, please keep in mind that hudson's could yet be standing today even WITH compuware [[on ye old kern's site) and its mega garage [[on ye old crowley's site), as well as our beloved 200 year-late public square, good 'ole campus martius.

yes, the machiavellian backroom reality of detroit would have been a better approach for alexander. getting a hearing in front of council for buildings, even if they support the cause, has become essentially a kiss of death. not that it makes it right or progressive or creative or forward thinking or rational or anything like that. it was pretty clear by the time alexander was really making his case, iceman marantette and the invisible hands of taubman's past dealings insured that archer & co. would never be interested in an alternative path.

Dealing with an Administration shouldn't be considered backroom dealing. According to the Charter, City Council doesn't have the authority to negotiate a deal. They can only vote yes or no.

[Novine]

"So... if it's not held by the mayor, the leash should be held by:"

The problem is that the leash is held by no one. The mayor doesn't have direct control over DEGC. In Geo. Jackson's case, he's running an organization that is private, not public, which means none of the rules that Michigan law requires public bodies to follow like Open Meetings Act and Freedom of Information Act apply to Jackson and Co. The control over the DDA and other authorities depends on getting people appointed who exercise the appropriate oversight. I don't know who's on the various boards and who they were appointed by but you can bet that Ken Cockrel didn't have his people on those boards while he was in office. This isn't a problem just in Detroit. There's other communities with DDAs and other quasi-government agencies with little oversight or control. But Detroit's has been the most destructive and least accountable, especially with so much control vested in the DEGC.

[HazenPingree]

So... if it's not held by the mayor, the leash should be held by:

- A city council that cares nothing about the old days?
- A populace that doesn't care?
- A state agency?
- A self-appointed group of "preservationists?"

Two of the four non-status-quo options will lead to greater destruction. The third is outside the purview of the city charter and is guaranteed to cause even more city/outsider divisiveness. And the fourth is just as antidemocratic as anything in the present system. Can you think of anything that's not some permutation of these? If you can't, the current world might be the best of all possible options.

Granting some power to the City Council would seem a very sensible method of doing so. Or what would be wrong with requiring approval of large-scale demolitions from the HDC?

[kraig]

Granting some power to the City Council would seem a very sensible method of doing so. Or what would be wrong with requiring approval of large-scale demolitions from the HDC?

Andy, I know you're pushing for Council By Districts and it makes sense in a lot of ways, but be careful, we switched from a district system decades ago because of corruption on the city council. Given the corruption that's currently happening with City Council, do you really think it's wise to look at giving more power to the likes of Conyers, Collins and Watson. They were on the OTSC's side when they came to the table, but, if they have more power, OTSC isn't going to make it to the table. the Council Members will be too busy fighting to see which one of their cronies will get a deal. It's not a good idea to craft the charter based on some hurt feelings.

[Lorax]

Demolishing Hudson's was perhaps the worst mistake made with regard to preservation, or lack thereof in Detroit's history.

No building had as much of a personal connection to Detroiters of all stripes.

What replaced it is a cruel joke. The Compuware building, while I accept it's importance in being built downtown, is just another suburban office park building, and will no doubt be labeled the "old Compuware" building when that company is either absorbed by another firm, or goes under completely.

What we'll be left with is another vacant space.

Hudson's building would have housed dozens of businesses, much as the massive bulk of the Argonaut Building does now in the New Center as a business incubator.

There is no reason Compuware couldn't have used this building, and we would be left with a familiar landmark.

Instead, we have a ripped open hole in our skyline, and a vacant acre of concrete on Woodward Avenue.

[detourdetroit]

could dear old detroit get any more corrupt? at its worst, council by district corruption would limit each corrupt district-based council person to their corrupt district. on the flip side, they would also be accountable to a much smaller population base that could more easily throw them out [[or control them). the hope is that with a hybrid system of at large and districts, the corruption would be more limited in focus and pervasiveness. in a completely at large system, a few bad apples pervades the body like a cancer.

[Hypestyles]

Dismantle the DEGC... but how could that be done.. why is something considered "quasi-governmental" without direct accountability?