THE DEGC: needs a leash?

**HazenPingree** · June-09-09, 09:39 AM

Maybe it is just me feeling upset about Tiger Stadium, but does anyone else feel that the DEGC needs to be more accountable to the citizens?

In 1975? the DEGC was set up to be independent of city government, to be able to quickly broker deals the city was unable to. However, this autonomy has let George Jackson run wild behind the wrecking ball. So much so that now he has squished one of the only major development projects in the city.

He needs to be stopped. He is killing our city.

Also, does anyone else smell kickbacks?

**Detroitnerd** · June-09-09, 09:42 AM

Let's not forget that one of the most powerful authorities [[quasi-private, quasi-governmental) was Robert Moses' Triborough Authority. For the skinny on how these special entities can ignore the wishes of people, read The Power Broker by Robert Caro. [[In the end, what reined Moses in was that the people turned against him in a huge way, under a sympathetic mayor.)

**HazenPingree** · June-09-09, 09:50 AM

I agree. I have added accountability of agencies like the DEGC to my Charter Commission platform.

Retroit · June-09-09, 10:13 AM

Pardon my ignorance, but maybe if you can explain it to me, others will learn something as well:

What is the relationship between the Detroit City Council, the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation and the Downtown Development Authority? In particular, how are the latter 2 accountable to the first? How is it possible that a private organization can exercise governmental authority?

**Novine** · June-09-09, 11:12 AM

The DDA is a public authority established by the City of Detroit. It has its own authority but the city maintains some control through the appointments to the DDA. The city has the power to end the DDA but it has to exist until all of its obligations are paid off. The DEGC is a private non-profit that is contracted with by the DDA and other city authorities to carry out their day-to-day operations. As the city's various authorities have outsourced this work to the DEGC and the DEGC isn't a public body, it operates with very little public oversight. If the DDA and other authorities actually exercised oversight, they could overrule the actions of Geo. Jackson. But since these boards are staffed with cronies and yes men and women, Geo. Jackson operates with almost no limits.

**kraig** · June-09-09, 11:18 AM

Everyone's putting it all on George Jackson. If i'm not mistaken, I read on another thread that the Founder, or one of the Founders, of the OTSC spoke up for Jackson and stated that he tried and did a lot to help.

In Jackson's defense, it must be extremely difficult to run several agencies when you have the likes of Bobby Ferguson being shoved down your throat. The Board members probably do a whole lot more for themselves than worry about what he is doing.

Retroit · June-09-09, 11:25 AM

Thanks, Novine. Dysfunctional Detroit at its best. Doing Rube Goldberg proud [[but still not catching the mouse!)

**Huggybear** · June-09-09, 05:37 PM

So... if it's not held by the mayor, the leash should be held by:

- A city council that cares nothing about the old days?
- A populace that doesn't care?
- A state agency?
- A self-appointed group of "preservationists?"

Two of the four non-status-quo options will lead to greater destruction. The third is outside the purview of the city charter and is guaranteed to cause even more city/outsider divisiveness. And the fourth is just as antidemocratic as anything in the present system. Can you think of anything that's not some permutation of these? If you can't, the current world might be the best of all possible options.

Originally Posted by andylinn

I agree. I have added accountability of agencies like the DEGC to my Charter Commission platform.

Retroit · June-09-09, 06:15 PM

Huggybear, in my naive opinion:
The leash of the DEGC/DDA should be held by the City Council and Mayor.
The leash of the City Council and Mayor should be held by the people.
And the Preservationists should run the Obedience School for the people. [[Translation: the Preservationist need to try and get the rest of the city as excited about preservation as they are.)

**HazenPingree** · June-09-09, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Huggybear

So... if it's not held by the mayor, the leash should be held by:

- A city council that cares nothing about the old days?
- A populace that doesn't care?
- A state agency?
- A self-appointed group of "preservationists?"

Two of the four non-status-quo options will lead to greater destruction. The third is outside the purview of the city charter and is guaranteed to cause even more city/outsider divisiveness. And the fourth is just as antidemocratic as anything in the present system. Can you think of anything that's not some permutation of these? If you can't, the current world might be the best of all possible options.

Granting some power to the City Council would seem a very sensible method of doing so. Or what would be wrong with requiring approval of large-scale demolitions from the HDC?

**kraig** · June-10-09, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by andylinn

Granting some power to the City Council would seem a very sensible method of doing so. Or what would be wrong with requiring approval of large-scale demolitions from the HDC?

Andy, I know you're pushing for Council By Districts and it makes sense in a lot of ways, but be careful, we switched from a district system decades ago because of corruption on the city council. Given the corruption that's currently happening with City Council, do you really think it's wise to look at giving more power to the likes of Conyers, Collins and Watson. They were on the OTSC's side when they came to the table, but, if they have more power, OTSC isn't going to make it to the table. the Council Members will be too busy fighting to see which one of their cronies will get a deal. It's not a good idea to craft the charter based on some hurt feelings.

**Novine** · June-09-09, 09:49 AM

Quasi-governmental authorities were established to help insulate them from the political process. The end result has to been to remove all public accountability from these organizations that take tax dollars siphoned off from public government and use to fund these shadow governments that usually operate for the benefit of private individuals first [[Ilitch) and the public only as an afterthought.

**detourdetroit** · June-09-09, 11:26 AM

um, yes my friends. the alphabet soup of downtown orgs that supposedly work to economically develop detroit use stealth tactics and are legally public when they want to be and private when they have to be.

it is a kabal of "we know what's best for detroit" politicos who have figured out how to make the system work for them so that they can predictably and expeditiously get the desired results with a minimum of troublesome oversight or community input. these guys are supposed to provide leadership and vision by working OUTSIDE of the market to help CREATE a more dynamic and desireable marketplace. instead they cry victimhood to the the wiles of the existing market and rationalize the further destruction of our built environment by trying to beat us into submission with the familiar, "the numbers just don't work" for this or that. How many times have we heard this only to be left with more and more vacant lots.

I would call the DEGC as much a blight GENERATOR as a blight remover. Curt Guyette at the MT is really the only one in the media who's articulated this at all. He nailed it over ten years ago with his coverage of the Hudson's demo fiasco. despite endless rationalizations to the contrary, here and elsewhere, still one of the stupidest decisions ever made for downtown.

http://dkpdetroit.com/hudsons/articles/puzzle.html

**kraig** · June-09-09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by detourdetroit

um, yes my friends. the alphabet soup of downtown orgs that supposedly work to economically develop detroit use stealth tactics and are legally public when they want to be and private when they have to be.

it is a kabal of "we know what's best for detroit" politicos who have figured out how to make the system work for them so that they can predictably and expeditiously get the desired results with a minimum of troublesome oversight or community input. these guys are supposed to provide leadership and vision by working OUTSIDE of the market to help CREATE a more dynamic and desireable marketplace. instead they cry victimhood to the the wiles of the existing market and rationalize the further destruction of our built environment by trying to beat us into submission with the familiar, "the numbers just don't work" for this or that. How many times have we heard this only to be left with more and more vacant lots.

I would call the DEGC as much a blight GENERATOR as a blight remover. Curt Guyette at the MT is really the only one in the media who's articulated this at all. He nailed it over ten years ago with his coverage of the Hudson's demo fiasco. despite endless rationalizations to the contrary, here and elsewhere, still one of the stupidest decisions ever made for downtown.

http://dkpdetroit.com/hudsons/articles/puzzle.html

That article was more about the Downtown Partnership than the DEGC. And I guess we should be mad at the Partnership. After all, who would want Comerica Park, Ford Field, Campus Martius, EDS, Ernst & Young, Compuware, the rehabilitation of the Dime Building, the Opera House, The new Hotel on Gratiot, the Super Bowl, the NCAA Final Four, the Baseball All Star Game, Small Plates and the Detroit Brewing Company when we could still have the abandoned Hudson's building?

C'mon, you can't get mad about everything. The City does have to move forward on some things.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-09-09, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

That article was more about the Downtown Partnership than the DEGC. And I guess we should be mad at the Partnership. After all, who would want Comerica Park, Ford Field, Campus Martius, EDS, Ernst & Young, Compuware, the rehabilitation of the Dime Building, the Opera House, The new Hotel on Gratiot, the Super Bowl, the NCAA Final Four, the Baseball All Star Game, Small Plates and the Detroit Brewing Company when we could still have the abandoned Hudson's building?

C'mon, you can't get mad about everything. The City does have to move forward on some things.

Oh gee, I'm sorry. It's so clear that demolition of the Hudson's building was required to make any of the enumerated projects possible.

Not.

**kraig** · June-09-09, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Oh gee, I'm sorry. It's so clear that demolition of the Hudson's building was required to make any of the enumerated projects possible.

Not.

It was, there were some tax credits involved with attaching Hudson's and the Park to make room for Compuware. The main thing I'm pointing out is that the Greater Detroit Downtown Partnership helped bring a lot of development and assisted in transforming downtown. If you want to go further, they also helped the state move into the Old GM building that's helped keep the New Center area vibrant, rehabbed the Brush Park area, Orchestra Hall and a lot of development of the Cass Corridor area and Midtown area.

**iheartthed** · June-09-09, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

It was, there were some tax credits involved with attaching Hudson's and the Park to make room for Compuware. The main thing I'm pointing out is that the Greater Detroit Downtown Partnership helped bring a lot of development and assisted in transforming downtown. If you want to go further, they also helped the state move into the Old GM building that's helped keep the New Center area vibrant, rehabbed the Brush Park area, Orchestra Hall and a lot of development of the Cass Corridor area and Midtown area.

Where did the state move from when they went to the Old GM building?

**ghettopalmetto** · June-09-09, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

It was, there were some tax credits involved with attaching Hudson's and the Park to make room for Compuware. The main thing I'm pointing out is that the Greater Detroit Downtown Partnership helped bring a lot of development and assisted in transforming downtown. If you want to go further, they also helped the state move into the Old GM building that's helped keep the New Center area vibrant, rehabbed the Brush Park area, Orchestra Hall and a lot of development of the Cass Corridor area and Midtown area.

How do you earn tax credits for attaching a demolished building [[Hudsons) to the Park? And how is it physically possible to attach a nonexistent structure? If demolition was going to spur development, don't you think it would have at least occurred at ground zero of that demolition within, say, 10 years or so?

You might want to re-check your history. For one, the Opera House project was completed well before Hudsons came down.

**detourdetroit** · June-09-09, 11:31 AM

the wonderful word "bamboozle" comes to mind...

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bamboozle

**detourdetroit** · June-09-09, 12:24 PM

in terms of smooth operation, what's the gdp in the 90s is the smooth operating degc of the 2000s ...similar mindset, and all the same old school leadership. i'll give them all the credit they deserve where it's due. there have been some really wonderful projects under [[or once in a while) in spite of their watch. and i'll be the first to admit that i'd SO MUCH rather have a george jackson in charge over someone like beth duncomb. but detroit still deserves better and thanks to ghettopalmetto for setting the record straight. there's no data to suggest that any of those projects wouldn't have happened if hudson's was still in place.

**kraig** · June-09-09, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by detourdetroit

in terms of smooth operation, what's the gdp in the 90s is the smooth operating degc of the 2000s ...similar mindset, and all the same old school leadership. i'll give them all the credit they deserve where it's due. there have been some really wonderful projects under [[or once in a while) in spite of their watch. and i'll be the first to admit that i'd SO MUCH rather have a george jackson in charge over someone like beth duncomb. but detroit still deserves better and thanks to ghettopalmetto for setting the record straight. there's no data to suggest that any of those projects wouldn't have happened if hudson's was still in place.

Hudson's had to come down in order to put Campus Martius and Compuware as the Center of Downtown. It was also a sign that other businesses and developers wanted to see, as far as, the willingness and capability of the people that were running things.

The big difference between then and now is not the willingness, but the capability. I'd also like to point out that, with the exception of GM moving to the Ren-Cen [[which I don't think I mentioned), the majority of the other developments were not auto related.

**Detroitnerd** · June-09-09, 12:57 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Kraig.

**detourdetroit** · June-09-09, 12:59 PM

good auto-related point kraig. bad other points. yup, we sure like to show our intent in big bang, 2 million square foot, terminal loss kind of ways. another "sign" for downtown business could have been a meaningful national rfp, or taking randy alexander seriously and working with him to make his proposal happen, or phasing the building over time, or revisioning a pared down hudson's, or working to get the ground floor activated again. karmanos was interested in actually retolling hudson's before he was shim, shammed and schwarzeneggered. the only good that came out of hudson's was major sponds for maryland's controlled demolition, a happy, bouncy archer with that symbolic "millstone" removed from his collective neck, and what still plays as one of the more morbidly exciting youtube vids available. to think that the seriously deleterious scar to downtown's fabric, which [[god forbid) also may have contributed to spectators' [[and roger weber's) risk factor for mesothelioma, was a good or absolutely necessary thing requires a serious chug a lug of detroit's silver bullet kool aid. terminal loss of urban basis at this scale requires that much longer a gestation period for a rebound. um, so when is that prime time city block, with thousands of attached parking spaces actually going to get redeveloped? it's been vacant longer than tiger stadium. yeah, we're about three or four decades behind the rest of the world and losing out every day...

**kraig** · June-09-09, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by detourdetroit

good auto-related point kraig. bad other points. yup, we sure like to show our intent in big bang, 2 million square foot, terminal loss kind of ways. another "sign" for downtown business could have been a meaningful national rfp, or taking randy alexander seriously and working with him to make his proposal happen, or phasing the building over time, or revisioning a pared down hudson's, or working to get the ground floor activated again. karmanos was interested in actually retolling hudson's before he was shim, shammed and schwarzeneggered. the only good that came out of hudson's was major sponds for maryland's controlled demolition, a happy, bouncy archer with that symbolic "millstone" removed from his collective neck, and what still plays as one of the more morbidly exciting youtube vids available. to think that the seriously deleterious scar to downtown's fabric, which [[god forbid) also may have contributed to spectators' [[and roger weber's) risk factor for mesothelioma, was a good or absolutely necessary thing requires a serious chug a lug of detroit's silver bullet kool aid. terminal loss of urban basis at this scale requires that much longer a gestation period for a rebound. um, so when is that prime time city block, with thousands of attached parking spaces actually going to get redeveloped? it's been vacant longer than tiger stadium. yeah, we're about three or four decades behind the rest of the world and losing out every day...

Yeah, bad other points. I guess none of those things I mentioned exist and the Super Bowl, Final Four and MLB All-Star game didn't happen either.

On the Flip Side to your argument. Ford Auditorium is still there and just flat out useless after 19 or 20 years of being "saved". Tell Randy Alexander if he's serious about doing projects in Detroit he should go pitch his idea to the administrative branch and not the legislative branch, like he did here.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-09-09, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

Yeah, bad other points. I guess none of those things I mentioned exist and the Super Bowl, Final Four and MLB All-Star game didn't happen either.

No one is denying any of those things happened, but it wasn't because of the Hudson's demolition, as you naively claim.

That's like saying strippers are gonna show up at your house because you got your car off the blocks and the refrigerator off the porch, when in reality, they showed because you PAID them to show up.