Bing, Snyder back new plan for 3-mile light-rail line on Woodward

**Russix** · January-10-12, 02:54 AM

So we are back to Square M1, I wish I could think of great ways of subverting the democratic process like this, I could probably run for office then.

**Russix** · January-10-12, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by canuck

They will scale it back to a half mile rickshaw circuit next friday?

Actually that would be nice, because someone who might actually use transit, had some input in the result

**cramerro** · January-10-12, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by royce

I know this is a stretch, but if the line is only going to go to Grand Boulevard, why not extend the rail along West Grand Boulevard [[since it also has to turn around somewhere) to Henry Ford Hospital and the Motown Museum? If ever it is decided the line will go north, then this could be the local route and other rail cars would go north [[assuming that cars on one route can spur into other directions and safely reconnect with the main line). Good idea?

BTW, thanks Richard and others for answering my earlier questions.

I agree this would be a great addition to the route, a pretty long one though. It would really provide a link to a lot more jobs, further boosting the destinations along the system.

The trains don't have to turn around, they just have switch tracks at the end, so the station can handle two trains [[if needed) and when they arrive or depart they switch to the correct side to go back southbound.

**iheartthed** · January-10-12, 07:38 AM

Yeah, this just officially lost my support. Downtown Detroit does not need another trolley.

**Genesyxx** · January-10-12, 07:54 AM

I actually like bringing the streetcar back downtown. Don't know who's going to fix them if they get broken though. Its a fleet of rusted ones sitting at the yard right now.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-10-12, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Why not go "green" and use draft horses to pull the trains?...

Nothing green about horses. Horses still produce "emissions", foul up the air, demand breaks [[I think there is a horses union on Mackinac Island)! Those emissions need to be cleaned up somehow. Maybe we can consider it an economic generator as it makes additional jobs for scoopers and hosers?

**Scottathew** · January-10-12, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Nothing green about horses. Horses still produce "emissions", foul up the air, demand breaks [[I think there is a horses union on Mackinac Island)! Those emissions need to be cleaned up somehow. Maybe we can consider it an economic generator as it makes additional jobs for scoopers and hosers?

We will use non-union horses and feed them less and deny them breaks. As to the leavings, that's actually a good thing. People will feel like it's Mackinac Island and it will get visitors from the suburbs that are attracted to the four block downtown and horse refuse.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-10-12, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by 48091

We will use non-union horses and feed them less and deny them breaks. As to the leavings, that's actually a good thing. People will feel like it's Mackinac Island and it will get visitors from the suburbs that are attracted to the four block downtown and horse refuse.

At least at Mackinac Island they have devised a way to get rid of the emissions at a profit. They mix in sugar and repackage it as fudge!

**401don** · January-10-12, 08:50 AM

I would hope that Henry Ford employees wouldn't hesitate to walk the 3 blocks over from Woodward if the train made commuting sense for them. They are healthcare workers after all.

**antongast** · January-10-12, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by royce

I know this is a stretch, but if the line is only going to go to Grand Boulevard, why not extend the rail along West Grand Boulevard [[since it also has to turn around somewhere) to Henry Ford Hospital and the Motown Museum? If ever it is decided the line will go north, then this could be the local route and other rail cars would go north [[assuming that cars on one route can spur into other directions and safely reconnect with the main line). Good idea?

BTW, thanks Richard and others for answering my earlier questions.

Extend it to Providence and call it the Dexter streetcar.

**antongast** · January-10-12, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by 48091

We will use non-union horses and feed them less and deny them breaks.

In pre-electrification urban America, the upshot of that was that there were a lot of rotting horse carcasses lying around wherever they happened to drop dead from overwork. Quaint!

**Gistok** · January-10-12, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

I would hope that Henry Ford employees wouldn't hesitate to walk the 3 blocks over from Woodward if the train made commuting sense for them. They are healthcare workers after all.

When you factor in leaving the HFH campus, crossing the Lodge, and the size of the other blocks... it's more like a 5 block walk.... I bet most employees [[just like most American) that have to walk that distance, would rather hop in their car.

Also, where did you get the impression that health care workers have a better lifestyle [[and would rather walk) than the general population? Not true... some even smoke!

**casscorridor** · January-10-12, 12:28 PM

I wouldn't trust this, or any article, about the Woodward line.

But it does frustrate me, this back and forth... "we're doing light-rail, no now we want streetcar, now we are back to light rail, now nothing, now light rail again, now streetcar... all for the most ill-thought out reasons too. "

Streetcars in other cities run in high density downtown areas. We already have the people mover, we don't need another one. What we need is rail transit that goes out of Downtown and connects to other neighborhoods with FAST and FREQUENT service. Streetcars might be frequent if funding can be secured, but it won't be very fast, which means the length will be limited [[i.e. no extension to the fairgrounds much less Oakland County). We need a system that can be expanded, and although a streetcar system can be expanded, Detroit's inner city is simply not dense enough to support such a system [[unlike DC, which is building a massive streetcar system in addition to the already existing Metro system... because DC is dense and continues to get denser), but it can support light-rail [[on Woodward, Michigan and other major corridors) in addition to the proposed improved buses.

**casscorridor** · January-10-12, 12:47 PM

If the proposed 3 mile light-rail line is true light-rail, meaning dedicated lane, traffic-signal priority, built [[architectural) stations [[not simply bus stops/shelters) and frequent service at high speeds, it can act as a demonstration line for an entire system. The problem with the people mover is not that it was a short [[3 mile) demonstration line, but rather that the physical structure or technology was not suitable for our needs... stations were too close together, it only moved in one direction, etc. [[I would like to note here that automated rapid transit can work, just look at Vancouver, but Detroit made the mistake of failing to have a successive demo line, and because the technology is so expensive and central Detroit is not dense enough, the system was never expanded). The M1 proposal might very well be another People Mover if it doesn't overcome these same hurdles of being frequent and fast enough, and easily expandable. This means we need true-light rail... which simply requires following through on the DTOGS plan of center-running light-rail [[with a short curbside segment through Downtown), with fast-moving trains and frequent service that can move people from one end of the line to the other quite rapidly... something a streetcar is not designed to do. Streetcar is for operating within high-density urban cores, and like I have already pointed out, Detroit already has an urban circulator [[the people mover) AND doesn't even have the density levels necessarily for another circulator. So do Detroit a favor, demand to simply build Phase I of the Woodward Light-Rail project and hope Phase II can be built some day in the future. Any altering to the technology will be a horrible failure.

**bailey** · January-10-12, 12:53 PM

casscorridor

I wouldn't trust this, or any article, about the Woodward line.

But it does frustrate me, this back and forth... "we're doing light-rail, no now we want streetcar, now we are back to light rail, now nothing, now light rail again, now streetcar... all for the most ill-thought out reasons too. "

When you look at everything the Gilbertonians have said over the life of this project, it was always envisioned by them to be a short line, running at the curb and in traffic. Then the rest was grafted on top of it to make it the foundation for a line out to 8 mile and maybe on day more. Frankly, I don't think the private money ever wanted to be on the hook for anything more than a trolley and I'm glad theyve finally dropped the pretense and just started being honest.

**Jimaz** · January-10-12, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

We will use non-union horses and feed them less and deny them breaks.

... and act surprised when things go horribly wrong. LOL!

Attachment 11743

**Richard** · January-10-12, 01:21 PM

This could be thought out to death,center running streetcars would be my personal preference for many reasons but as I mentioned earlier fares only cover 15% of operating costs so the difference has to be made up somewhere else.

Two options,either an added transit tax to everybody which at this point would go over not so well or assesing property owners that border the track if you have a center running streetcar then you can not really tell a property owner that they are on the line if the track runs down each side then they have direct track frontage and pay the premium rate.

Light rail verses streetcar ,light rail costs in a high density are expensive and you can never reach the speeds anyways with stops every 700 feet kinda like driving a mack truck when a geo would work just the same,they are built different then a street car and subject to higher demands that a streetcar would not be so costs increase.

Where I am at I ride a replica street car 6 miles it costs $2.50 one way and takes 15 minutes with all of the stops,I still cannot beat that driving ,parking,etc. time wise.

Now if you are crossing say from a suburb to the city and passing a large expanse then light rail would be the way to go in order to move a large amount of people in a reasonable time frame. It was kinda of a waste to have my 67 GTO with 600 HP racing light to light by the time it started to get going it was time to stop.

**Whitehouse** · January-10-12, 01:47 PM

Here's an article from September 2010 about the same issue in New York city. Whereas the Detroit streetcars all vanished to Mexico [[and were mostly crushed by a devistating earth quake), there are actually still some vintage streetcars in the Big Apple.

http://www.streetsblog.org/2010/09/0...y-to-find-out/

**Whitehouse** · January-10-12, 01:52 PM

And a link to the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association.

**Parkguy** · January-10-12, 02:41 PM

This idea for Red Hook actually makes some sense to me. It is very industrial, and is just now going through resurgence. Some big-box retailers and residential developments have started popping up there, and it is on a sort of peninsula that connects to the rest of the borough in the direction of downtown Brooklyn. As a post-industrial town, Detroit should probably watch how this plan works out.

**Hypestyles** · January-10-12, 02:51 PM

enter bad puns based on "A streetcar named _____"

**laphoque** · January-10-12, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Why not go "green" and use draft horses to pull the trains?...

Real talk. To be great again why don't we follow our own example but really fast? Horses today. Electrified tomorrow. And then we'll diverge and bury the trains in a subway. And then teleportation like next week.

**BrushStart** · January-10-12, 07:10 PM

A streetcar is a stupid idea. Either build true LRT or end this debacle. Might as well put a stake through the heart of the region while you're at it.

**Gistok** · January-10-12, 07:24 PM

Geeze... when is the whining going to end...

These guys are billionaires for a reason... they're smart... and all the folks here want to do is criticize...

Remember they're billionaires because they're smart... comparatively... the rest of us are just doofus'es behind a keyboard...

**antongast** · January-10-12, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Geeze... when is the whining going to end...

These guys are billionaires for a reason... they're smart... and all the folks here want to do is criticize...

Remember they're billionaires because they're smart... comparatively... the rest of us are just doofus'es behind a keyboard...

Not sure if serious...