Bing, Snyder back new plan for 3-mile light-rail line on Woodward

[Hermod]

In case you're out of the loop, Detroit is shrinking...

4.5 Million People no longer live in Detroit's MSA.

This is the problem. Te Detroit area doesn't have a commuter problem with unbelievable traffic jams. Transit isn't needed to relieve congestion on Woodward, the Lodge, or the Chrysler. Transit is needed in Detroit as a "loser cruiser" and Detroit really hasn't done much to improve conditions on DDOT and make it an acceptable system for those people who are dependent on transit. As noted, this line will be a parking shuttle and will allow the WSU kids to go downtown and back to the bars without worrying about DUIs. This line will just make the situation on DDOT worse, because it will siphon off operating funds from DDOT to keep it running after the billionaires have built it.

[rex]

The 3 mile line was a good idea from the jump. The 8 mile run was a bridge to nowhere. Light rail should/could be used to reinvigorate the city from the core and outward.

First the Downtown to Grand boulevard or even Boston Edison on Woodward.
Next Michigan Ave thru Corktown and to the Trainstation
Next Gratiot to Eastern Market
Next Grand River thru Woodbridge

This makes sense to me. Aside from a few pockets of relative normalcy scattered throughout the city the majority of Detroits foundation is Downtown. Thats where the momentum is, the infastructure exists and the money is centered
You current Detroit residents know well enough the problems involved with owning a vehicle in the city. High insurance and auto theft. I know it happens everywhere but i had 2 cars stolen by WSU in less than 3 years. They were NOT left unlocked on at 2nd and Peterboro with a sign saying steal me, neither were very nice. So extend light rail to the areas of the city that are most attractive to higher wage earners that work downtown.
Also. It should be made easier to get to Eastern Market with public transpo. Whole Foods is great and all but Eastern Market solves a lot of problems. It could be so much more than it is now. More restaurants, ambiance, shopping. Its already a gem. it could be a jewel too

maybe even run up East Jefferson too.

[313WX]

This is the problem. Te Detroit area doesn't have a commuter problem with unbelievable traffic jams. Transit isn't needed to relieve congestion on Woodward, the Lodge, or the Chrysler. Transit is needed in Detroit as a "loser cruiser" and Detroit really hasn't done much to improve conditions on DDOT and make it an acceptable system for those people who are dependent on transit. As noted, this line will be a parking shuttle and will allow the WSU kids to go downtown and back to the bars without worrying about DUIs. This line will just make the situation on DDOT worse, because it will siphon off operating funds from DDOT to keep it running after the billionaires have built it.

For the record, I'm fully in support of Detroit developing a large scale mass transit system. That will only improve the urban landscape around here, which is what the younger generations want.

Otherwise, Detroit will continue to shrink as the younger generations continue to move to areas that already have these items in place [[Snyder can shove his "Forget Chicago" slogan where the sun doesn't shine, unless he plans on working to offer an alternative to Chicago in Michigan, which I don't see that happening either).

[313WX]

When Detroit was first started years ago I would bet the first paved road was big news even if it was only 6 blocks long , it goes back to perception and how others see Detroit as a progressive city it really does not matter if three years down the road it goes belly up, what does it say to the rest of the country that if Detroit can pull off rail in any form ?

You're missing the context however.

When Detroit first began, roads weren't a necessary part of a city [[it WAS seen as impressive because it was new to everyone) NOR was Detroit even 1/8 the size it is now [[in the city proper, let along region).

Mass transit should be a basic infrastructure investment to benefit everyone in the region. How does a 3-mile line from downtown to the New Center do that?

At least if it went to 8 Mile, people from the neighborhoods north of the city center would probably use it to commute downtown. Plus it would have been even more benificial in terms of tourism for the city and improving the quality of life for people in Midtown/Detroit/North End/Highland Park, as they could have rode the light rail line to the Michigan State Fair [[in the event it ever returns) and the Shoppes at Gateway Plaza [[in the event it ever comes to fruition)

[Danny]

The regional authorities and some private companies is going to say FORGET IT!

[Brian1979]

I don't know what's wrong with my idea for this, of course I have never approached Bing or Snyder with my idea. My idea was to use the downtown section of the People Mover as a loop to turn trains around, it would function exactly like the loop in Chicago on a smaller scale it of course would only have one track going in one direction. The difference from today's People Mover to my idea would be that it would cross GCP and head up Woodward over the sidewalk like the current People Mover does now on many streets downtown.

I think ultimately it is going to have to go to 8 Mile but not right away, I'm fine with it terminating at Grand Blvd. The People Mover instead of going across Woodward between the Broderick Tower and Whitney Building would curve and follow Woodward over the sidewalk on the right side of the street going north and then turn around in New Center and come back down Woodward using the sidewalk on the right side of the street going south. This could have a spur to Henry Ford Hospital as well and connect Henry Ford Hospital to the rest of the DMC [[Harper, Hutzel and Children's).

I believe this is what the People Mover originally was suppose to do is be a downtown feeder of a larger mass transit system. The tracks going from Broadway to Bagley would be removed and trains would instead travel over Grand Circus Park to their respective sides of Woodward, a southbound train would come down Woodward past Adams and then curve over the park to where the People Mover's current allignment over Bagley, likewise it would complete the downtown loop and come up Broadway and travel over the park and go northbound to New Center and ultimately 8 Mile.

I don't understand why anyone would be against extending this to 8 Mile in the future, it could only help spur development along Woodward which is pretty much non exsistant from 6 Mile to 8 Mile, that corridor could be developed into something real nice.

[DetroitPlanner]

In case you're out of the loop, Detroit is shrinking...

4.5 Million People no longer live in Detroit's MSA.

That depends on your definition. The MSA is not the real region!
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...Census10-4.pdf

[ThisIsForTheHeart]

This is the problem. Te Detroit area doesn't have a commuter problem with unbelievable traffic jams. Transit isn't needed to relieve congestion on Woodward, the Lodge, or the Chrysler. Transit is needed in Detroit as a "loser cruiser" and Detroit really hasn't done much to improve conditions on DDOT and make it an acceptable system for those people who are dependent on transit. As noted, this line will be a parking shuttle and will allow the WSU kids to go downtown and back to the bars without worrying about DUIs. This line will just make the situation on DDOT worse, because it will siphon off operating funds from DDOT to keep it running after the billionaires have built it.

I leave work at 4:30PM and get home at 7PM on a drive that should take 30 mins. I guess we don't have any traffic problems in the metro Detroit area.

[ThisIsForTheHeart]

You're missing the context however.

When Detroit first began, roads weren't a necessary part of a city [[it WAS seen as impressive because it was new to everyone) NOR was Detroit even 1/8 the size it is now [[in the city proper, let along region).

Mass transit should be a basic infrastructure investment to benefit everyone in the region. How does a 3-mile line from downtown to the New Center do that?

At least if it went to 8 Mile, people from the neighborhoods north of the city center would probably use it to commute downtown. Plus it would have been even more benificial in terms of tourism for the city and improving the quality of life for people in Midtown/Detroit/North End/Highland Park, as they could have rode the light rail line to the Michigan State Fair [[in the event it ever returns) and the Shoppes at Gateway Plaza [[in the event it ever comes to fruition)

In 1909 Woodward Avenue between Six Mile and Seven Mile Roads was the first mile of road paved with concrete.

How did that benefit the area?

[313WX]

That depends on your definition. The MSA is not the real region!
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...Census10-4.pdf

I agree.

Either way, you're wrong.

IF you we're speaking of the WHOLE region, then we're talking 5.2 Million [[which is also shrinking BTW), not 4.5 Million.

[Gistok]

I leave work at 4:30PM and get home at 7PM on a drive that should take 30 mins. I guess we don't have any traffic problems in the metro Detroit area.

Route?

I can go from SCS to Ann Arbor in rush hour in 1 hour... so curious people want to know?

[313WX]

I leave work at 4:30PM and get home at 7PM on a drive that should take 30 mins. I guess we don't have any traffic problems in the metro Detroit area.

Do you live and/or work in Oakland County [[or Northern Macomb County) and take surface streets?

If so then I completely believe you.

[Brian1979]

Detroit has more traffic problems than anyone thinks it does, try getting from downtown Detroit to M-59 during the afternoon rush hour, it's going to take you over an hour on a drive that should take 25-30 minutes at the most. I've sat in several traffic jams in Detroit and while doing so wondered why Detroit is so far behind on mass transit. An ultimate mass transit system for this region would go from the Phoenix Center in Pontiac to downtown Detroit. People could actually park at the Phoenix Center and take the train downtown instead of driving it, that would elminate traffic from I-75 and make life much easier for people that have to make that drive every single day. I can't think of anyone that would want to get out of work at 4 or 5pm and not get home until after 7 simply because of traffic, it's the region's fault because they have been too lazy to make any progress with a mass transit system. Just build the damn thing and watch the development spur, it's mindboggling that people don't want to see Detroit become a better place to life, work and play.

[SteveJ]

I leave work at 4:30PM and get home at 7PM on a drive that should take 30 mins. I guess we don't have any traffic problems in the metro Detroit area.

You must be taking the service drive to Chicago.

[canuck]

Making it a short run is a sign that the mayor and governor lack confidence and wherewithal. The short run would inevitably lead to further negative perceptions of transit like those about the People Mover. The People Mover is not a negative asset if taken with a view to encompassing other mass transit linkage. What makes the thing daunting is the issue of a severely depopulated city, a suburban revulsion to the inner city and the communal aspect of transit.

3 miles doesnt cut it. There needs to be a wider metro scheme to enable long term transit for the region. The region needs to connect to the city thereby revitalizing the inner city.

I liken this to a sportsbar type place that would put up ipods instead of widescreens to draw customers in. It's another no-no.

[Wesley Mouch]

...3 miles doesnt cut it. ...ipods instead of widescreens to draw customers in...

Don't worry. This is just jockeying. But it does show you that the big guys still would like to do Detroit right.

In the end, I'm sure it'll either be all LRT or all BRT. I do actually hope its LRT, but most of all let it be done right.

[bartock]

"People forget who voted me in office," Bing told The Detroit News in an interview. "The citizens voted me in office and I have to represent them.

"The business community is an important part of the city, [[but) I have to look out for the majority who live and work here. Woodward [[light rail) is not going to be the answer for the people with transportation needs. This is a better solution, without a doubt."

What happened to all this tough talk?

It sounds like biz leaders whipped it right out on Bing's table.

What the hell are you talking about? I think Bing has actually played the last few weeks right on this topic. The "tough talk" had to do with the BRT line and public funding for same versus LRT to 8 mile. The second part, is the part that private investors will be financing [[mostly), which is LRT to Grand Blvd. For all the complaining about everything going on here, it would seem a greater number of people...and Detroit-proper-ers...are being served by what is being mostly publicly financed, while those who "really" wanted light rail are getting the original version of the vision through mostly private funding from New Center to the river. Win-win if it happens.

[bartock]

If they build it and its clean, safe, and reliable it will be expanded. If within the first month, we hear about armed robberies on the train than it will be another people mover.

No, it won't be, because the big losers in your scenario would be the wealthy businessfolks who took the private risk of funding it, not the taxpayers.

[313WX]

Who's going to pay for the operating costs?

[WALD0123]

I don't know what's wrong with my idea for this, of course I have never approached Bing or Snyder with my idea. My idea was to use the downtown section of the People Mover as a loop to turn trains around, it would function exactly like the loop in Chicago on a smaller scale it of course would only have one track going in one direction. The difference from today's People Mover to my idea would be that it would cross GCP and head up Woodward over the sidewalk like the current People Mover does now on many streets downtown.

I think ultimately it is going to have to go to 8 Mile but not right away, I'm fine with it terminating at Grand Blvd. The People Mover instead of going across Woodward between the Broderick Tower and Whitney Building would curve and follow Woodward over the sidewalk on the right side of the street going north and then turn around in New Center and come back down Woodward using the sidewalk on the right side of the street going south. This could have a spur to Henry Ford Hospital as well and connect Henry Ford Hospital to the rest of the DMC [[Harper, Hutzel and Children's).

I believe this is what the People Mover originally was suppose to do is be a downtown feeder of a larger mass transit system. The tracks going from Broadway to Bagley would be removed and trains would instead travel over Grand Circus Park to their respective sides of Woodward, a southbound train would come down Woodward past Adams and then curve over the park to where the People Mover's current allignment over Bagley, likewise it would complete the downtown loop and come up Broadway and travel over the park and go northbound to New Center and ultimately 8 Mile.

I don't understand why anyone would be against extending this to 8 Mile in the future, it could only help spur development along Woodward which is pretty much non exsistant from 6 Mile to 8 Mile, that corridor could be developed into something real nice.

I've been behind this concept for a while. I've never understood why it hasn't been given more consideration. We have an already built ROW with stations serving every part of downtown. Scrap the automated system and rolling stock and just use the rails. Eliminate a few stations and have the People Mover line cross over Grand Circus and then go to grade. Saves construction costs downtown, dramatically increases the utility of the People Mover system and hopefully saves operating costs by combining the two entities. As Brian mentioned, this would work much the same way as the Chicago Loop. It could likely support another expansion line at some in the future as well [[Michigan perhaps). The loop rails in Chicago support 2-3 concurrent lines depending on the particular stretch and direction.

[bartock]

Who's going to pay for the operating costs?

OK so look a gift horse in the mouth with respect to the LRT.

Whether private or publicly funding for operating costs, those of you who proclaim LRT to be the be-all, end-all of everything always tout the lower operating costs of LRT. But, to have someone other than taxpayers pay for "most" of the infrastructure should be considered a good thing. Fuck, so many folks complain about anything and everything, whether you wanted it or not. There is a line that I sort of recall from the last Batman movie where the Joker says that he's like a dog chasing a car, and wouldn't know what to do with it if he caught it. Seems appropriate.

[313WX]

OK so look a gift horse in the mouth with respect to the LRT.

So then it would be a liability to the taxpayers if SteveJ's scenario [[or any number of scenarios that would lead to failure) plays out.

The point is if we're going to start something [[building an extensive mass transit system) we might as well start it off right. For the life of me, if the money to build it is there, I don't understand why they won't intially build this line all the way to 8 Mile. At least then more people would be willing to ride it, because more people would have access to it and it does travel a more reasonable distance.

What they're proposing now will likely be a waste of time and money [[everyone's money). We're essentially looking at the People Mover on steroids. No one's going to pay $2 or more to ride a 3 mile trolley when they reach the same destination just as fast by walking or automobile, or even bus if this one's going to be curbside. That's why the extension to 8 Mile was proposed in the first place.

[iheartthed]

This is the problem. Te Detroit area doesn't have a commuter problem with unbelievable traffic jams. Transit isn't needed to relieve congestion on Woodward, the Lodge, or the Chrysler. Transit is needed in Detroit as a "loser cruiser" and Detroit really hasn't done much to improve conditions on DDOT and make it an acceptable system for those people who are dependent on transit. As noted, this line will be a parking shuttle and will allow the WSU kids to go downtown and back to the bars without worrying about DUIs. This line will just make the situation on DDOT worse, because it will siphon off operating funds from DDOT to keep it running after the billionaires have built it.

Detroit traded its city to have those relatively congestion-free roadways. I think the current situation has shown us that it wasn't such a great idea... And if the city gets rebuilt it would need mass transit options.

[Richard]

So then it would be a liability to the taxpayers if SteveJ's scenario [[or any number of scenarios that would lead to failure) plays out.

The point is if we're going to start something [[building an extensive mass transit system) we might as well start it off right. For the life of me, if the money to build it is there, I don't understand why they won't intially build this line all the way to 8 Mile. At least then more people would be willing to ride it, because more people would have access to it and it does travel a more reasonable distance.

What they're proposing now will likely be a waste of time and money [[everyone's money). We're essentially looking at the People Mover on steroids. No one's going to pay $2 or more to ride a 3 mile trolley when they reach the same destination just as fast by walking or automobile, or even bus if this one's going to be curbside. That's why the extension to 8 Mile was proposed in the first place.

Here and now who is the we part ? mayor ? no, Gov ? No . taxpayers? or the 26% that do pay ?. connecting suburbs? have not heard from them yet.

So you build what you can support without help, to even think that people behind the rail do not want a spider web of mass transit is insane I think that they have shown enough to prove their intentions.But one can only go so far with what they have and Detroit is a big city.

So at this point it is what it is if others wish to expand it they have 90 days to step up to the plate and support it , everybody pretty much has computers and elections are coming up email LaHood , your state legislators the surrounding burbs chain of command and show your support.

Go to any city in this country and beyond and tell them that private money is planting 3 miles of track and see if they can think of 90 million ways for it not to happen or not be happy with at least a foot in the door,I do not think so.

So many issues over something that should really not even be a issue in the first place.

[313WX]

Go to any city in this country and beyond and tell them that private money is planting 3 miles of track and see if they can think of 90 million ways for it not to happen or not be happy with at least a foot in the door,I do not think so.

Every other city in the country is already well ahead of us in building a transit system with their own taxpayer dollars, many cities much poorer than Detroit [[regionally) I might add. They realize a mass transit system isn't suppose to make a profit [[no government entity is), rather it's supposed to improve the quality of life of its residents and thus spur additional private investment.

They don't fiddle their thumbs around like Detroit does. They see what needs to be done for the OVERALL benefit of everyone and do it as soon as possible.