Historic Preservation in Detroit

[rjlj]

Huggybear, that may be your prepective but is not reality. Yes, changes need to be made in how things are dealt with but every situation is different. There are many reasons why preservation is not working in this city and those forces are far much greater than the minority.

[Huggybear]

Of which 3 would still be running after 6 months. Poor use of money.

You could start 19 good restaurants with that kind of money!

[kraig]

As longtime Joe Citizen and Joe Taxpayer in Detroit, I would submit that the problem is that many "historic preservationists" [[as opposed to people who do preservation for a living) lack perspective, business planning/generation abilities, people skills, and therefore ability to confront why preservation is not working. What we get instead is the monotonous "anyone who disagrees with us is an idiot/monster/child pornographer." If you lack the introspection to understand the root causes of failure, you will not prevent failures in the future.

What, are you saying that treating the saving of Tiger Stadium, a 33 million dollar endeavor, as if it were just a hobby to be done in one's spare time, was not the way to go?

I don't know HB, you sound like someone who likes to exercise good ,old fashioned common sense. Why let that get in the way?

[ghettopalmetto]

As longtime Joe Citizen and Joe Taxpayer in Detroit, I would submit that the problem is that many "historic preservationists" [[as opposed to people who do preservation for a living) lack perspective, business planning/generation abilities, people skills, and therefore ability to confront why preservation is not working. What we get instead is the monotonous "anyone who disagrees with us is an idiot/monster/child pornographer." If you lack the introspection to understand the root causes of failure, you will not prevent failures in the future.

I used to be a design professional who worked on many preservation projects. The problems with historic preservation in Detroit are specific to the mechanisms [[or lack thereof) to execute projects in Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

Of which 3 would still be running after 6 months. Poor use of money.

Well, that's your speculative guess. I suppose your casual dismissal of any proposal to front small business loans is going to be a lot more productive than the millions spent for zero result on the Africantown project.

Hell, even if you loaned that money to start restaurants, and 3 of them remained after six months, that's a HELL of a lot better than the ZERO rate or return that has been realized to date.

Given this and the Tiger Stadium debacle in the past week, I have to wonder if Detroit has something against small businesses that pay taxes.

[Fnemecek]

City Council touts this all the time and BRC always states that if they call it African Town they'll get sued. As far as City Council is concerned, it's their brainchild. Especially since they had their CPC do a lot of work on the project. No matter how messed up the project is or how much money is wasted, City Council will campaign that they made this happen. Which makes them happy with the DEGC. The DEGC knows this, which is why it's considered a necessary evil to them. They give on this one project and get on a dozen more.

What does this have to do with spending $19 million and only getting one business out of it?

Do you think that if they got two businesses out of it, the City Council would be upset with them?

I used to work for a series of politicians. Contrary to what some on this forum believe, it is by no means impossible for a competent staffer to carry out a boss' political desires while still delivering value to the public. In fact, doing so usually makes your superiors even happier.

[kraig]

What does this have to do with spending $19 million and only getting one business out of it?

Do you think that if they got two businesses out of it, the City Council would be upset with them?

I used to work for a series of politicians. Contrary to what some on this forum believe, it is by no means impossible for a competent staffer to carry out a boss' political desires while still delivering value to the public. In fact, doing so usually makes your superiors even happier.

Once City Council and the DEGC got what they wanted, they no longer cared.

[Fnemecek]

And that is why heads need to role at both the City Council and the DEGC.

[kraig]

And that is why heads need to role at both the City Council and the DEGC.

By George, I think you've got it.

[sumas]

Historic preservation of structures would be greatly enhanced if our educational system worked to preserve our actual history. I belong to a small non profit historical society who has researched east area history extensively. It never ceases to amaze me how events and people of even a mere 100 years ago have been completely forgotten.

[sumas]

Wishful thinking, I wish that Detroit yes would add a fourth board/forum dedicated to just Detroit history. When I first joined there were a lot of threads covering history of areas and buildings and I found this info to be a great read. Haven't seen much of that lately.

[detmich]

Please, you act like nothing is sacred in Detroit. Detroit is home to the world's largest publicly displayed collection of plastic consumer goods containers. Its collection of blue and red plastic cups is recognized by scholars as the quintessential research resource in the discipline. The empty/partially empty Flaming Cheetos bags are a source of infinite knowledge as they are studied and analyzed. Why, even upscale suburbs like Grosse Pointe have nothing to rival Detroit's collection. To act like Detroit and Detroiters do not preserve history is just wrong. Detroiters collect, and preserve what is important to them.

[56packman]

This is little more than opinion [[mine) but it seems to me that here in the US we have a construction industry that is partnered with the demolition industry in the common interest of having continual work, aided and abetted by developers who can stand to profit for the results of the efforts of those two industries.
It is generally viewed [[or has been generally viewed in the past) that new construction=progress, and years ago the saying "you can't stand in the way of progress" was often heard.
In this young country, with a culture that adapts, and then abandons things in such a rapid, continual manner it should come as no surprise that there is not much of a building restoration industry. There are some construction companies that can and will do it, but it is a tricky business. If you are going to save a building and restore it, you have to use it, have a viable next life for that building. It has to support itself by virtue of the businesses inside.
You can make all of the lists of significant buildings and make all of the surveys you want, if a developer wants a building down in order to proceed with a project; he's not going to encounter any resistance from city hall.
The few examples of great restoration and reuse here in Detroit were led by people with an altruistic goal, such as MOT and the Broadway-Capitol theater [[now Detroit Opera House) or the Ferchill group, with the Book-Cadillac, and I think they hope to see $$$ at the end of that rainbow.
Had a developer wanted either of those two buildings gone for new development they would have fallen.

[Fnemecek]

This is little more than opinion [[mine) but it seems to me that here in the US we have a construction industry that is partnered with the demolition industry in the common interest of having continual work, aided and abetted by developers who can stand to profit for the results of the efforts of those two industries.

The problems with this is that there are relatively few jobs on a demolition project [[it's mostly done by machine and/or explosives) and because historic preservation is more labor intensive than new construction, there's actually more work for the construction industry on preservation side of the house. They would have to be very stupid to be a part of a scheme to destroy historic buildings in order to get a new construction contract.

More importantly, since demolition rarely leads to new construction, it would be even worse for the construction guys.

Of course, there are some very stupid people in the world. Therefore, there always remains the possibility that something like this could have happened - at least in Detroit.

[buildingsofdetroit]

One of the founding members of the OTSC has stated that George Jackson did more to assist the OTSC than anyone else.

And NOTHING is going to get done in this town in the future unless people work WITH Jackson and not AGAINST him. As long as he runs the DEGC, they need his help. Character assassinations are not the way to go, no matter how angry they are over a failed preservation effort. Many, many, many more battles to fight in this town.

[kraig]

And NOTHING is going to get done in this town in the future unless people work WITH Jackson and not AGAINST him. As long as he runs the DEGC, they need his help. Character assassinations are not the way to go, no matter how angry they are over a failed preservation effort. Many, many, many more battles to fight in this town.

It sounds like your proposing that people around here start working together and treating each other right. Makes sense to me.

[56packman]

The problems with this is that there are relatively few jobs on a demolition project [[it's mostly done by machine and/or explosives) and because historic preservation is more labor intensive than new construction, there's actually more work for the construction industry on preservation side of the house. They would have to be very stupid to be a part of a scheme to destroy historic buildings in order to get a new construction contract.

More importantly, since demolition rarely leads to new construction, it would be even worse for the construction guys.

Of course, there are some very stupid people in the world. Therefore, there always remains the possibility that something like this could have happened - at least in Detroit.

This is true, Fnemecek, but I think new construction is more profitible than restoration/reuse, and that is a driving factor. If restoration was profitable there would be a land rush to Detroit, and, well, that hasn't happened.
Restoration places more people from the city on the job, the first phase of a restoration requires a lot of general labor to tear out walls, remove any plumbing or electrical the scrappers missed, and prepare the structure for the skilled trades to come in later.
Also, as an aside to the demolition/construction discussion, that model I site above pertains to cities other than Detroit where the land underneath buildings is desired and of commercial value.

[Fnemecek]

This is true, Fnemecek, but I think new construction is more profitable than restoration/reuse, and that is a driving factor. If restoration was profitable there would be a land rush to Detroit, and, well, that hasn't happened.

I don't believe that new construction is inherently more profitable than restoration/reuse. I believe the reason there hasn't been a land rush to Detroit has much more to do with the underlying residential and commercial real estate markets in Detroit than anything else. We're not seeing much new construction here either.

[Irvine Laird]

I prefer to frame preservation in economics. Most people agree on the aesthetic and historic value of Detroit's architectural landmarks, but those things don't pay the bills.

Economics is at the root of the problem. Detroit experienced a building boom unliked anything in American history in the first two decades of the 20th century. The fantastic growth of the auto industry generated unusual wealth until the Great Depression, when many construction projects came to a halt. For example, the Book brothers intended to build a second tower along Washington Boulevard that was to be the tallest building in the world. The Fisher Building was to be a twin structure. To this day, the Masonic Temple has a giant concrete pit that was to be a swimming pool.

World War II generated new wealth that allowed Detroit to keep up its infrastructure. For instance, Packard showed signs of decline before the conflict, but government orders for airplane engines kept its plant on Grand Boulevard open and allowed the company to go on for awhile after the war.

Preservation is a moot point unless resources exist to fund it. While suburban sprawl is surely to blame for some of the problem, the simple fact is that Detroit's economy declined to the point that occupying and maintaining many of its historic structures was no longer possible. There simply is not enough wealth in Detroit to preserve its historic gems. This is a cold, hard fact. It's just not there.

An economic problem demands an economic solution. And perhaps architecture could be part of that solution.

We must get into the business of creating wealth again. This means new industries like the ones at Tech Town. To do this, however, we must attract and retain talent. Most research now is pointing to talent as the secret ingredient to prosperity.

This is where historic architecture comes in. People of my generation and younger demand a sense of place about the cities where they live and work. They like culture. They like history. They like old buildings that stir the imagination.

The DEGC makes an enormous mistake when it assumes that demolishing historic structures will help Detroit's economy. In destroying historic landmarks, the DEGC is destroying Detroit's unique "sense of place" that is vital to attracting talent. It's the same old stupidity that genius urban developers applied in the 1960s.

Detroit's preservationists, however, are making a mistake by not framing their mission in economic terms that the DEGC and general public can understand. We need to promote historic architecture as a draw for talent and an economic resource.

There will be compromise. For instance, I can't think of one good use for the old Packard plant in the 21st century economy. Detroit will build its next golden age on the creative and scientific economy rather than mass production of machinery. Fighting for the Packard plant is a battle that could get in the way of fighting for structures that do have an economic future [[e.g. Lafayette Building, Michigan Central Station, etc.).

Many of these building will be vacant for years to come until Detroit's economy grows up again. Rather than come up with ideas that make no sense in the present economic condition, preservationists should focus on keeping buildings safe and secure until the economy catches up. Again, this means making some sacrifices--choosing a select group of buildings to save and letting the rest go. A few grand buildings in good condition is better than none at all.

Which brings us back to Detroit's scarcest resource and the root of all of this mess: Leadership [[or lack thereof).

The good news is there are plenty of people capable of the leadership we need. Money may be in short supply, but the genius and the guts are here.

[kraig]

That was very well put, Irvine Laird.

[barnesfoto]

[[sound of more applause).

[LeannaM]

We demoed the Orange Bowl here in Miami which was a mid-century modern marvel of architectural elements, and was in far better condition than Tiger Stadium. See photos to know what I mean. It was a shame, and indicative of the backward mentality we live with, even here.

So that 2,000 people can watch the Marlins play.

Unfortunately, a lot of cities make no sense in what they save and what they do not.

In St. Louis they demolished the Ambassador in the 90s. http://builtstlouis.net/ambassador01.html Then they demolished the Century Building in 2004, 4 years into the renaissance of Downtown. http://builtstlouis.net/century00.html Obviously, Downtown St. Louis has a long way to go, but these two buildings could have been turned into lofts or offices. Fortunately, the Kiel Opera House and the Municipal Courts Building have renovation plans, with the Kiel Opera House being renovated by Blues owner Dave Checketts. And in 1999, there were 70 empty buildings Downtown, now there are less than a dozen. So, St. Louis leaders have made some progress.

Face it, our country overall has spent the last 50 years with an "if it's old, tear it down," mentality, with a few exceptions.

I realize preservationists need to pick their battles, but the stupidity of some politicians is almost shocking. That said, politicians are like hamburgers. Some are just greasier than others. I think preservation is harder right now, since there's a recession going on. A few rehab projects in Downtown St. Louis have been halted [[the Arcade, the Alexa, Dillard's, and St. Louis Centre) have been put on hold because the developer went bankrupt, and no one has the money to do anything with them right now. Now a slimy rich guy who bought properties all over the north side and let the James Clemens mansion http://builtstlouis.net/clemens1.html and hundreds of historic homes crumble wants a bunch of money from the government for an "ambitious new plan" to repopulate the North Side.There were people living in his properties on the North Side. He kicked them out and destroyed the homes they were living in.

Fighting to save historic buildings, especially ones that could be renovated into something else, can be infuriating. And politicians and the people who have the money usually don't help the matter.

[LeannaM]

Many of these building will be vacant for years to come until Detroit's economy grows up again. Rather than come up with ideas that make no sense in the present economic condition, preservationists should focus on keeping buildings safe and secure until the economy catches up. Again, this means making some sacrifices--choosing a select group of buildings to save and letting the rest go. A few grand buildings in good condition is better than none at all.

Sophie's choice, basically? Choose one and demolish the next? I can see your reasoning, but it does sound a bit harsh. But I understand what you mean.

[kathy2trips]

We demoed the Orange Bowl here in Miami which was a mid-century modern marvel of architectural elements, and was in far better condition than Tiger Stadium. See photos to know what I mean. It was a shame, and indicative of the backward mentality we live with, even here.

Geez, Lorax, that really sucks. I thought Houston was barbaric. With South Beach and all, you'd think Miami would be more architecturally sensitive. Boneheads! And I'll bet everything went into a landfill, too! Extra-Brilliant!!

[kraig]

For those interested, the National Preservation Conference is being held in Nashville October 13-17. There's still plenty of time to register.