Historic Preservation in Detroit

**urbanoutdoors** · June-09-09, 07:43 AM

In the past few days as the Tiger Stadium issue heated up once again and a very unfortunate outcome came out in the end.
I have noticed many different things. Here are a few.
1. The historic preservation community seems to a degree to be divided on how we should go about trying to preserve our historic assets here in the city.
2. That there is no real plan for Historic Preservation on a city government level.
3. It is almost like the DEGC has now taken it attacks personal and is out for blood...
With these 3 things said and without going too deep how do we unify and work toward a common goal of lobbying the city to preserve our gems for the future. We are all very passionate about our city but, how can we hone that passion so that we start winning more historic preservation battles? I thank all for the time and effort they take on these issues. Moving forward what can we do?

Lorax · June-09-09, 08:53 AM

First of all, choosing fights wisely is a start.

The fate of Tiger Stadium was known for some time, eversince a new stadium was announced.

If Tiger Stadium had any architectural worth, it would have been a wiser fight, but ultimately not one that is realistic.

A list of worthy properties in my humble opinion:

Cass Tech
MCD
Abyssinian Church
Palmer Park apartment buildings
Lafayette Building
Stott Building
David Whitney Building
United Artists Theatre
Broderick Tower
Book Building & Tower
National Theatre

and dozens more....

We demoed the Orange Bowl here in Miami which was a mid-century modern marvel of architectural elements, and was in far better condition than Tiger Stadium. See photos to know what I mean. It was a shame, and indicative of the backward mentality we live with, even here.

**urbanoutdoors** · June-09-09, 09:09 AM

Lorax,
Although Architectural significance has a lot to do with Historic Preservation, I do not see it as the only element to take into account.
I agree with you about all of the buildings listed but isn't it better to try to fight for something that has a feasible plan for reuse than to fight for something that is almost impossible to preserve... Not to mention the fact that I feel tiger stadium had a great amount of architectural significance and the fact that until ilitch/the city neglected it for 10 years it was in as good of shape as the orange bowl even though it was about 50 years older.
Example: Tiger Stadium could have still been used as a baseball venue not to mention a museum, and mixed use commercial residential.
Where as the Packard plant is so massive that it would be almost impossible to redevelop even for manufacturing in these days....

Retroit · June-09-09, 09:19 AM

Well, at the risk of sounding like a condescending white suburbanite prick attempting to insult the intelligence and culture of black Detroiters, I would like to offer my suggestion.

I think that the biggest problem is that most Detroiters don't have appreciation for architecture. This is understandable given the more pressing challenges that they face. The best way to rectify this is to expose them to, and educate them about, the rich supply of architectural gems in Detroit. This would start early with field trips for children, explanation of architectural terms in art classes, open houses to historical buildings, and documentaries on PBS. CBC Channel 9 has short segments on historic buildings that are very informative.

So, maybe a little more education early on will decrease the need for political battles at the final hour?

**HazenPingree** · June-09-09, 09:31 AM

In historic preservation, if you are planning to raise public sympathy and monies, then the most important factor is not architectural significance, but nostalgia.

For this reason and this reason alone, Tiger Stadium would have succeeded if not squashed by an arrogant city department that needs to be put on a leash. Sure, it might have taken another year or two to get all pieces in place, but Mary Kramer's article was spot on: The Conservancy was led by very competent Detroit business people. The project would have happened.

This is why I am concerned about Lafayette. It does not benefit from the nostalgia of TS. It is not even a Hudson's!

However, I agree, we need to concentrate and better organize our preservation efforts.

**Novine** · June-09-09, 10:04 AM

Urbanoutdoors is right, there's no real plan for historic preservation in Detroit city government. If the city doesn't value preserving historic structures, why would we expect staff or agencies with ties to the city to do the same? Until there's a plan and a change in attitude about historic preservation, the wrecking balls are going to keep swinging, especially when such projects line the pockets of demolition contractors or shift private costs onto the public tax dollar [[Ilitch). The DDA budget had tens of millions of dollars that were supposed to be used for projects that would have rehabbed existing buildings. But when the proposed Quicken move was proposed, that money was shifted towards that project. Now we have little money for historic rehabs and no Quicken. What could have been accomplished in the past 2 years if money was being put into stabilizing buildings and making them more available for future development than chasing the ghost of Quicken, which still has not happened?

**xD_Brklyn** · June-09-09, 09:55 AM

The OTSC project wasn't about saving Tiger Stadium, it was about adaptive re-use. I had questions about the project, but if it turned out for the best, I'm confident it would have been a destination for the metro Detroit area and a centering landmark for the Corktown neighborhood. So the problem with The Corner wasn't totally the historical organization's approach or means, but largely city and metro politics.

In NYC, the historical designation council has wide-reaching powers. Developers have been known to please this council by restoring one landmark so they can demolish another sensitive landmark. Also the council makes their decisions on what buildings to save very seriously because they know how tenuous their powers are. If they abused their power, the council could be eliminated rather quickly. The Detroit area has no such group and never has. Then of course, politics isn't the only problem, there's also the capital required to restore the many landmarks in Detroit threatened but that's another story.

With the Corner, the OTSC raised $4.5 million and $18 million in Federal and State Historic Tax Credits. That's significant money. I can't help but see the problem with The Corner as being based in local politics.

So for starters, the local historical groups maybe should start lobbying too?

**jt1** · June-09-09, 09:57 AM

"Well, at the risk of sounding like a condescending white suburbanite prick attempting to insult the intelligence and culture of black Detroiters, I would like to offer my suggestion.

I think that the biggest problem is that most Detroiters don't have appreciation for architecture."

Let's be honest with ourselves. It isn't just Detroiters it is the entire region that lacks any appreciation for architecture. Last I checked the only architecture appreciated in SE Michigan is wider roads, more freeways and big box retail.

**LeannaM** · June-22-09, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lorax

We demoed the Orange Bowl here in Miami which was a mid-century modern marvel of architectural elements, and was in far better condition than Tiger Stadium. See photos to know what I mean. It was a shame, and indicative of the backward mentality we live with, even here.

So that 2,000 people can watch the Marlins play.

Unfortunately, a lot of cities make no sense in what they save and what they do not.

In St. Louis they demolished the Ambassador in the 90s. http://builtstlouis.net/ambassador01.html Then they demolished the Century Building in 2004, 4 years into the renaissance of Downtown. http://builtstlouis.net/century00.html Obviously, Downtown St. Louis has a long way to go, but these two buildings could have been turned into lofts or offices. Fortunately, the Kiel Opera House and the Municipal Courts Building have renovation plans, with the Kiel Opera House being renovated by Blues owner Dave Checketts. And in 1999, there were 70 empty buildings Downtown, now there are less than a dozen. So, St. Louis leaders have made some progress.

Face it, our country overall has spent the last 50 years with an "if it's old, tear it down," mentality, with a few exceptions.

I realize preservationists need to pick their battles, but the stupidity of some politicians is almost shocking. That said, politicians are like hamburgers. Some are just greasier than others. I think preservation is harder right now, since there's a recession going on. A few rehab projects in Downtown St. Louis have been halted [[the Arcade, the Alexa, Dillard's, and St. Louis Centre) have been put on hold because the developer went bankrupt, and no one has the money to do anything with them right now. Now a slimy rich guy who bought properties all over the north side and let the James Clemens mansion http://builtstlouis.net/clemens1.html and hundreds of historic homes crumble wants a bunch of money from the government for an "ambitious new plan" to repopulate the North Side.There were people living in his properties on the North Side. He kicked them out and destroyed the homes they were living in.

Fighting to save historic buildings, especially ones that could be renovated into something else, can be infuriating. And politicians and the people who have the money usually don't help the matter.

**kathy2trips** · June-23-09, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Lorax

We demoed the Orange Bowl here in Miami which was a mid-century modern marvel of architectural elements, and was in far better condition than Tiger Stadium. See photos to know what I mean. It was a shame, and indicative of the backward mentality we live with, even here.

Geez, Lorax, that really sucks. I thought Houston was barbaric. With South Beach and all, you'd think Miami would be more architecturally sensitive. Boneheads! And I'll bet everything went into a landfill, too! Extra-Brilliant!!

**kraig** · June-23-09, 01:51 PM

For those interested, the National Preservation Conference is being held in Nashville October 13-17. There's still plenty of time to register.

**kathy2trips** · June-09-09, 10:33 AM

I wonder what portion of the "stimulus/spending" bill goes to historic preservation at all? That's something I'd be willing for my tax dollars to be spent on.

Retroit · June-09-09, 10:50 AM

andylinn, you may be right about architecture vs. nostalgia, but may I suggest that the reason that many preservationists are not as keen about saving TS is that it has solely nostalgic value and zero architectural value?

jt1, I completely agree. The only difference is that most of the region [[i.e. the suburbs) have few architectural treasures, while Detroit has many. If suburbanites are architecturally ignorant, little harm is done. If Detroiters are architecturally ignorant, historical buildings get torn down with no one batting an eye [[no pun intended).

**urbanoutdoors** · June-09-09, 10:56 AM

Here is an interesting article on the tiger stadium. And its significance... It was the last of its kind and was architecturally significant to those who know about stadiums... Neil Demause is great when it comes to public financing of stadiums and historical significance.
http://baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1302

**Gistok** · June-09-09, 11:01 AM

Novine... the DEGC has already spent millions on Harmonie Park [[Paradise Valley... or Paradise Folly as I like to call it).... what do they have to show for that??

One thing that bothers me about Detroit's historic preservation is all the fragmented organizations... Preservation Wayne, CityScape, Detroit Area Art Deco Society... etc.

Too bad that local preservationists didn't take a page from Benjamin Franklin... "either we all hang together, or we'll all hang separately..."

Lorax · June-09-09, 09:25 PM

Gistok is right, so are many of you. However, Tiger Stadium, as I stated before had it's future written several years earlier when Comerica Park was announced. The time for action should have been then.

TS had been butchered over the years, and did not have any appreciable visual quality left. It was built simply, stripped down in style, and wasn't ever a beautiful ball park like Fenway or Wrigley Field.

NYC will allow Yankee Stadium to fall, and it is much more intresting a building than TS was.

If memory and nostalgia are the prerequisites here, then Hudson's was the most important building in Detroit. Why was this demolition allowed? No building in Detroit had as much a connection to Detroiters of all ages and races.

There is nothing wrong with a modern, well appointed ball park. TS was replaced with something better than what came before. We can't say the same for Hudson's, or the rest of Detroit's missing landmarks.

**softailrider** · June-10-09, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Lorax

Gistok is right, so are many of you. However, Tiger Stadium, as I stated before had it's future written several years earlier when Comerica Park was announced. The time for action should have been then.

TS had been butchered over the years, and did not have any appreciable visual quality left. It was built simply, stripped down in style, and wasn't ever a beautiful ball park like Fenway or Wrigley Field.

NYC will allow Yankee Stadium to fall, and it is much more intresting a building than TS was.

If memory and nostalgia are the prerequisites here, then Hudson's was the most important building in Detroit. Why was this demolition allowed? No building in Detroit had as much a connection to Detroiters of all ages and races.

There is nothing wrong with a modern, well appointed ball park. TS was replaced with something better than what came before. We can't say the same for Hudson's, or the rest of Detroit's missing landmarks.

That's not my opinion that "TS was replaced with something better" maybe better restrooms, or, a better view looking to the outfield. I [[and many others ) think Comerica Park is a far WORSE place to watch a baseball game .

**kraig** · June-10-09, 08:22 AM

I know that no one wants to hear this, but a big problem is that Preservation Groups in the region are not organized well enough. With a proposed 33 million dollar project, there is no way that the OTSC could afford to not have someone working day to day on the Tiger Stadium efforts. Also, in this instance some OTSC members discovered that other members were not all that they've been made out to be. There were too many members that didn't do squat and left other members to carry the load. And those do nothing members were going to be the first ones trying to offer input once the money was in hand.

I have to give extra credit to Thom Linn, he worked his ass off on this.

Lorax · June-10-09, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

That's not my opinion that "TS was replaced with something better" maybe better restrooms, or, a better view looking to the outfield. I [[and many others ) think Comerica Park is a far WORSE place to watch a baseball game .

Well, you'd be in the minority on that one.

**Fnemecek** · June-10-09, 11:36 PM

Novine... the DEGC has already spent millions on Harmonie Park [[Paradise Valley... or Paradise Folly as I like to call it).... what do they have to show for that??

Okay - I seriously love the name Paradise Folly. I'm using that from now on and cursing the fact that I didn't think of it first.

One thing that bothers me about Detroit's historic preservation is all the fragmented organizations... Preservation Wayne, CityScape, Detroit Area Art Deco Society... etc.

They exist as separate organizations because they have slightly different missions. Cityscape, for example, is focused on a variety of urban planning/urban design issues with historic preservation being one of them.

However, and this is the important part, all of those organizations - along with related professional organizations such as the AIA-Detroit, are a part of the Greater Detroit Historic Preservation Coalition - which is essentially an organization of organizations. Things are worked out and each of those groups moves in a fairly cohesive manner. It's also generally agreed that Preservation Wayne is the lead agency for historic preservation efforts locally.

**Novine** · June-10-09, 11:29 PM

I would say that none of the seats in the upper decks at Comerica compare to similar seats at TS.

**buildingsofdetroit** · June-11-09, 11:05 AM

It sometimes appears Geo Jax has a personal vendetta against preservationists. I know not why. All I can say is, all those people who are hanging "Fire George Jackson" signs are doing nothing more than rattling the cage of a raging, terra cotta-craving, bulldozer-driving pit bull. And that is not a cage you want to rattle if you're trying to save historic buildings.

**kraig** · June-11-09, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by buildingsofdetroit

It sometimes appears Geo Jax has a personal vendetta against preservationists. I know not why. All I can say is, all those people who are hanging "Fire George Jackson" signs are doing nothing more than rattling the cage of a raging, terra cotta-craving, bulldozer-driving pit bull. And that is not a cage you want to rattle if you're trying to save historic buildings.

One of the founding members of the OTSC has stated that George Jackson did more to assist the OTSC than anyone else.

**buildingsofdetroit** · June-13-09, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

One of the founding members of the OTSC has stated that George Jackson did more to assist the OTSC than anyone else.

And NOTHING is going to get done in this town in the future unless people work WITH Jackson and not AGAINST him. As long as he runs the DEGC, they need his help. Character assassinations are not the way to go, no matter how angry they are over a failed preservation effort. Many, many, many more battles to fight in this town.

**kraig** · June-13-09, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by buildingsofdetroit

And NOTHING is going to get done in this town in the future unless people work WITH Jackson and not AGAINST him. As long as he runs the DEGC, they need his help. Character assassinations are not the way to go, no matter how angry they are over a failed preservation effort. Many, many, many more battles to fight in this town.

It sounds like your proposing that people around here start working together and treating each other right. Makes sense to me.