Compuware stores disappearing.....

[mikeg19]

Please read my first paragraph again... I said remove yourself from the bookstore example, because brick & mortar bookstores are going through a transition. But even within my example, with all due respect, you prove my point:

What happens when the store isn't there anymore for you to "check out" merchandise? Eventually, they will not be there...

I'll just read the synopsis online.

[jt1]

FIFY

Lots of those 800,000 seem to show up at Great Lakes Crossing.

What makes you think that - are you asking people where they are from or making assumptions. If it is the latter what is your assumption based upon?

[casscorridor]

FIFY

Lots of those 800,000 seem to show up at Great Lakes Crossing.

or Northland
or Somerset
or Oakland
or Eastland
or Fairlane
etc etc etc

I get asked where I buy my cloths on the street or at work sometimes [[Downtown), and most of the time they will be like "at the mall right?" before I even get to answer. And then I say... "no, I got it at this place in Corktown" and they are like "WHAT, There are stores in corktown?!?!" And i'm like "yeah, at least one store, called Rachel's Place... I try and find the businesses that are trying to make it in the city."

They are always happy to hear, but usually surprised. There is a culture of traveling to the suburbs to buy pretty much everything that runs very deep in this city. Imagine how many million upon millions of dollars that could be kept within the city if that were to change.

First thing is that more local businesses need to open, primarily retail. Then the culture has to change, so people consciously look to shop in Detroit. Eventually I hope retail districts will form so people don't even have to think about it anymore.

[Hermod]

What makes you think that - are you asking people where they are from or making assumptions. If it is the latter what is your assumption based upon?

Comparative census data for the various parts of the SE Michigan region and the laws of probability.

[jt1]

Comparative census data for the various parts of the SE Michigan region and the laws of probability.

Really, please elaborate.

[Roq]

I'll just read the synopsis online.

I'm with you. I do not have the time to deal with driving to a store, finding the book, etc...when I can just order the exact book I need online in about 30 seconds hassle free.

Brick and mortar stores better figure out a way to compete with the internet if they want to stay in business; depending upon people's goodwill to shop there despite it not being convenient isn't going to cut it. Like it or not, the internet is here to stay.

[Det_ard]

Really, please elaborate.

Quit playing dumb. 3/4ths of blacks in metro Detroit live in the city. Stop acting like there's an equal probability that a black shopper lives in Detroit or in Livonia.

[jt1]

Quit playing dumb. 3/4ths of blacks in metro Detroit live in the city. Stop acting like there's an equal probability that a black shopper lives in Detroit or in Livonia.

It's not a matter of playing dumb it is a matter of the attitude around SE Michigan that black equates to Detroit. If he had stated Eastland, Oakland Mall, Somerset, Fairlane, etc it would have made sense but the 'I saw black people at GLC so Detroiters must shop there' speaks volumes about the poster and this f'ed up region.

It's the same when people bitch about Detroiters around white people and the white people repsond they live in Detroit. The canned response is something along the lines of, I was talking about 'real Detroiters' or 'you know what I mean'

Until this region stops equating black to detroit and white to the suburbs we will never get past the bullshit, backwoods, racist region that we are.

So when people make claims based upon black equals Detroit then I will ask for clarification to see what cowardly response is given.

Now if we want to talk probability, given the distance of Great Lakes Crossing from the city the probability that black people shopping at great lakes crossing being from Detroit is much, much smaller. But hey, keep defending the black=detroit non-sense. Hell, read any comments from the Freep.com and you will quickly see the codespeak.

Defending the black=Detroit argument makes you wrong [[as of the 2000 census - so probably much higher in 2010) in your assumptions of about 280,000 people.

[wolverine]

I'm with you. I do not have the time to deal with driving to a store, finding the book, etc...when I can just order the exact book I need online in about 30 seconds hassle free.

Brick and mortar stores better figure out a way to compete with the internet if they want to stay in business; depending upon people's goodwill to shop there despite it not being convenient isn't going to cut it. Like it or not, the internet is here to stay.

Well you hit the key word, convenience. And there's a larger picture to it. For people who live in dense urban areas access to stores is alot more convenient than the internet. The problem is most of America isn't like that. So there is no "figure out a way." It's just go out of business....

Personally, I'd spend the extra bucks, and it isn't all that much more to support a business I can at least walk to. I find the experience of going to a store more wholesome than sitting in front of the computer. It's what I do all day at work anyway isn't it? I suppose if your retail options are bland suburban stores, it's not like you are missing much buying on the internet, but your mindset changes a bit when these retail chains become anchors to your downtown.

The internet to chain retail is like Wal-Mart to mom and pop stores.

[Det_ard]

It's not a matter of playing dumb it is a matter of the attitude around SE Michigan that black equates to Detroit. If he had stated Eastland, Oakland Mall, Somerset, Fairlane, etc it would have made sense but the 'I saw black people at GLC so Detroiters must shop there' speaks volumes about the poster and this f'ed up region.

It's the same when people bitch about Detroiters around white people and the white people repsond they live in Detroit. The canned response is something along the lines of, I was talking about 'real Detroiters' or 'you know what I mean'

Until this region stops equating black to detroit and white to the suburbs we will never get past the bullshit, backwoods, racist region that we are.

So when people make claims based upon black equals Detroit then I will ask for clarification to see what cowardly response is given.

Now if we want to talk probability, given the distance of Great Lakes Crossing from the city the probability that black people shopping at great lakes crossing being from Detroit is much, much smaller. But hey, keep defending the black=detroit non-sense. Hell, read any comments from the Freep.com and you will quickly see the codespeak.

Defending the black=Detroit argument makes you wrong [[as of the 2000 census - so probably much higher in 2010) in your assumptions of about 280,000 people.

Let's just get real. Of course you have to be careful when you make assumptions, but is it really that much of a reach to guess "Detroit"? 2000 census data:

Black population
Detroit 775,000
Flint 66,000 [[now 56,000)
Southfield 42,000
Pontiac 32,000
Inkster 20,000
Highland Park 16,000
Oak Park 14,000

Detroit's black population is 12X the next highest city. You're just posturing and making mountains out of molehills when you cry "racism" at Hermod for making a common sense logical deduction. I doesn't take much to figure out that there's a lot of Detroiters, black and otherwise, who shop at area malls instead of under-retailed Detroit.

[Hermod]

It's not a matter of playing dumb it is a matter of the attitude around SE Michigan that black equates to Detroit. If he had stated Eastland, Oakland Mall, Somerset, Fairlane, etc it would have made sense but the 'I saw black people at GLC so Detroiters must shop there' speaks volumes about the poster and this f'ed up region.

Defending the black=Detroit argument makes you wrong [[as of the 2000 census - so probably much higher in 2010) in your assumptions of about 280,000 people.

From the census site, I took the figures for the tri-county region [[Wayne-Oakland-Macomb). Yes there may be people from other counties at GLC.

From census estimate, there are 3.98 million people in the tri-county region. 2.76 mill are white [[69.3%) and 1.01 mill are black [[25.4%). Remainder are "others".

If you strip out Detroit from the metro region, you get a population of 3.11 Mill with 2.65 mill whites [[85.3%) and 0.30 mill blacks [[9.7%).

If shoppers at GLC are 15-20 percent black, you have two possible inferences which you can draw from the data.

A. Suburban blacks like shopping at GLC more than suburban whites.

B. Residents of 80.3% black Detroit make up a significant part of GLC shoppers.

No complaints about the situation, no racism, but which of the two inferences is more likely??

[jt1]

Let's just get real. Of course you have to be careful when you make assumptions, but is it really that much of a reach to guess "Detroit"? 2000 census data:

Black population
Detroit 775,000
Flint 66,000 [[now 56,000)
Southfield 42,000
Pontiac 32,000
Inkster 20,000
Highland Park 16,000
Oak Park 14,000

Detroit's black population is 12X the next highest city. You're just posturing and making mountains out of molehills when you cry "racism" at Hermod for making a common sense logical deduction. I doesn't take much to figure out that there's a lot of Detroiters, black and otherwise, who shop at area malls instead of under-retailed Detroit.

Certainly I agree that many Detroiters shop in area malls [[as I implied above). I was taking exception to his implication that black shopper at GLC crossing is the same as detroit shopper at GLC. Given the distance from the city and the other options between here and there it is quite an assumption.

[jt1]

From the census site, I took the figures for the tri-county region [[Wayne-Oakland-Macomb). Yes there may be people from other counties at GLC.

From census estimate, there are 3.98 million people in the tri-county region. 2.76 mill are white [[69.3%) and 1.01 mill are black [[25.4%). Remainder are "others".

If you strip out Detroit from the metro region, you get a population of 3.11 Mill with 2.65 mill whites [[85.3%) and 0.30 mill blacks [[9.7%).

If shoppers at GLC are 15-20 percent black, you have two possible inferences which you can draw from the data.

A. Suburban blacks like shopping at GLC more than suburban whites.

B. Residents of 80.3% black Detroit make up a significant part of GLC shoppers.

No complaints about the situation, no racism, but which of the two inferences is more likely??

You ignore proximity. Your implication that black shoppers is equivalent to detroit shoppers is flawed if you ignore proximity to the city. The argument of just using metro region numbers would make a lot more sense if speaking about Eastland, Fairlane, Macomb, Oakland, Somerset, etc.

GLC is pretty distant from Detroit so ignoring the shopping options between the city and GLC and just using the region numbers is not being honest with the statistics.

[313WX]

Black population
Detroit 775,000

If you eliminate the relatively inmobile elderly or young children who have no transportation [[forget the poorer citizens), that number would virtually be cut in half, thus making your point moot.

[313WX]

or Northland
or Somerset
or Oakland
or Eastland
or Fairlane
etc etc etc

I get asked where I buy my cloths on the street or at work sometimes [[Downtown), and most of the time they will be like "at the mall right?" before I even get to answer. And then I say... "no, I got it at this place in Corktown" and they are like "WHAT, There are stores in corktown?!?!" And i'm like "yeah, at least one store, called Rachel's Place... I try and find the businesses that are trying to make it in the city."

They are always happy to hear, but usually surprised. There is a culture of traveling to the suburbs to buy pretty much everything that runs very deep in this city. Imagine how many million upon millions of dollars that could be kept within the city if that were to change.

First thing is that more local businesses need to open, primarily retail. Then the culture has to change, so people consciously look to shop in Detroit. Eventually I hope retail districts will form so people don't even have to think about it anymore.

I'm sure more Detroiters would be willing to shop at these places if they knew about them [[better advertising), or better yet, if the stores were right in their neighborhoods.

Majority of Detroiters don't live in/near Corktown, but rather on the outer edges where Fairlane, Northland and Eastland are right up the street.

[Det_ard]

If you eliminate the relatively inmobile elderly or young children who have no transportation [[forget the poorer citizens), that number would virtually be cut in half, thus making your point moot.

Either I don't follow your logic or you've made a logical error.

If you want to subtract elderly and children from Detroit's number, wouldn't you have to do the same for Flint, Southfield, Pontiac etc.? Reduce them all by half and the ratio stays the same, Detroit is 12X the next largest one. Have I just made your point moot[er]?

[Hermod]

Certainly I agree that many Detroiters shop in area malls [[as I implied above). I was taking exception to his implication that black shopper at GLC crossing is the same as detroit shopper at GLC. Given the distance from the city and the other options between here and there it is quite an assumption.

If you are just going to "mall", te closer in malls would be the places of choice. If you are going to do serious shopping [[i.e. school clothes, winter coats) a "destination" mall or an "outlet" mall trip might well be n order.

Great lakes Crossing, like Potomac Mills [[SW of Washington DC), Sawgrass Mills [[NW of Miami FL), and a host of other like malls pull in customers from a much larger territory than do malls like Eastland, Northland, Lakeside, and Oakland. People do make the drive.

.

[stasu1213]

I had tried shopping in Downtown Detroit during the "Shop in Detroit" campaign last fall. There weren't a store downtown that had satisfied my needs. I do my clothes shopping at JC Penneys, Target, Sears, etc. Stores such as J L Stone, Hot Sams, Sermans, and the City Men's Warehouse were too trendy. Targets or a small J C Pennys would do good downtown. Compuware could lease some of it's space to a chain store. Old Navy could be a good store to move downtown. Detroit need a good reliable transportation system to draw people downtown without the worry of parking. Police need to ride around downtown on bicycles as they had done in the 1990s. Greektown is picking up with newer restaurants opening this month. I am saddened that the Europa cafe shop had closed due to the owners selling the business this past weekend.

[313WX]

Either I don't follow your logic or you've made a logical error.

If you want to subtract elderly and children from Detroit's number, wouldn't you have to do the same for Flint, Southfield, Pontiac etc.? Reduce them all by half and the ratio stays the same, Detroit is 12X the next largest one. Have I just made your point moot[er]?

My point was jt1 is right. Trying to compare the population of a 143 square mile city to individual suburban townships [[and a city not even 1/4 of Detroit's size) makes no sense what so ever.

So I don't see your purpose in marginalizing his point when you have no basis. To assume only blacks in Detroiters [[not suburban blacks) would pass up Oakland, Macomb, Eastland, Fairlane, Northland and even Somerset to shop out at Great Lakes Crossing [[which probably has the same stores as all the before-mentioned malls combined) reguarly just because you see a "few" black people there is ludracris.

[Hermod]

So I don't see your purpose in marginalizing his point when you have no basis. To assume only blacks in Detroiters [[not suburban blacks) would pass up Oakland, Macomb, Eastland, Fairlane, Northland and even Somerset to shop out at Great Lakes Crossing [[which probably has the same stores as all the before-mentioned malls combined) reguarly just because you see a "few" black people there is ludracris.

Everybody, black or white passes up the closest mall at times to go to a "destination mall". My stepson lives a hop-skip-and jump from Lakeside Mall, but periodic safaris out to GLC are often on the agenda.

It was the same way years ago when people in Pontiac, Rochester, and Utica would make the trek into downtown Detroit to take advantage of Hudsons and Crowleys.

GLC draws from more than just the surrounding subdivisions.

[casscorridor]

I had tried shopping in Downtown Detroit during the "Shop in Detroit" campaign last fall. There weren't a store downtown that had satisfied my needs. I do my clothes shopping at JC Penneys, Target, Sears, etc. Stores such as J L Stone, Hot Sams, Sermans, and the City Men's Warehouse were too trendy. Targets or a small J C Pennys would do good downtown. Compuware could lease some of it's space to a chain store. Old Navy could be a good store to move downtown. Detroit need a good reliable transportation system to draw people downtown without the worry of parking. Police need to ride around downtown on bicycles as they had done in the 1990s. Greektown is picking up with newer restaurants opening this month. I am saddened that the Europa cafe shop had closed due to the owners selling the business this past weekend.

Those Downtown stores are great! Sorry you couldn't find anything. They are pretty nice stores, and pretty "trendy" for that kinda style. On East Grand River there is a few nice trendy hip-hop inspired shops, a definite must see for anyone into that style. But I defiantly agree that Detroit needs some chain stores. It would bring more variety and choice Downtown. Right now there are very few shops, and they appeal to specific niches. It would be great to have the Downtown shopping district to a point that you can just get there and walk around and find something you like.

As far as Europa cafe, that place sucked. Sorry. But I am glad to see it close. The owners [[who also own Coldstone) are complete assholes. They are so arrogant and full of themselves. They crack homophobic and classist and [[probably subtle) racist jokes behind worker's backs. They pick favorites [[cute young girls) and fire anyone who they don't like. They treat their workers like complete shit. Not good to see someplace close, but hopefully something better will replace it. I'm glad to see those thugs gone.

I've honestly been waiting awhile for Europa to close too. Besides that they treat their workers like slaves, their food is WAYYY overpriced. A few peices of cheese for like 5 bucks. I worked at Cold Stone and even with my 50% discount I ended up using almost an hours worth of pay to buy a lunch there.

[DetroitSTAR]

Retail arcades can be very successful in Detroit. I'm posting this message from the One New Center Building where the shops are busy and the building is occupied with stable businesses that sell something other than wigs, liquor, or coneys...wait,they do sell coneys but you get my point.

Establish QUALITY office space at a reasonable rate and the people will show up to shop.

[stasu1213]

If they have a lot of rental property under a corporate umbrella, losses on one building can be used to soak up profits on another building for tax purposes. If they are writing off losses under their personal income taxes, there is a time limit on number of years before the government decrees that the business is a "hobby" and not a real business.

If they do have profitable real estate holdings and an empty building is not fully depreciated, the depreciation of the empty building can be charged off against their profits elsewhere.

That is the reason there is a lot of churning of commercial real estate. Once it has been completely depreciated, sell it to someone else so he can start taking depreciation from the price.

Auto dealers depreciate their building. They then sell it to a REIT and lease the building back. After the REIT depreciates the building, they sell it back to the auto dealer who begins a new cycle of depreciation.

The US tax code is a wonder to behold.

Do you think the leaders of this city know about this also but were paid off by the owners of these buildings to allow this continually?

[dove-7]

And what, pray tell, is "reasonable"?

Stores and restaurants could really do well if their wholesalers had "reasonable" prices, their employees made "reasonable" wages, and the utilities charged "reasonable" rates.

I could eat out a whole lot more than I do if the restaurants that I like charged me more "reasonable" prices.

Do you think the folks at city hall who now how to do "reasonable tax assessments" are skilled in determining "reasonable" rents?

Irrelevant point. What does that have to do with unreasonable rent and needing some rules laid down? I know what English is talking about, during the dot.com boom, here in San Francisco the tenant rent was outrageous until the city laid down some rent control rules.

[dove-7]

I would assume that the property owners are rational, sentient humans.

They seem to feel that letting a space be empty is more advantageous economically than leasing it out it at a lower rent. Possibly he is just hanging on with the building in hopes that the land under it will become insanely valuable when the "Detroit Renaissance" arrives.

Your position is that the city should take control and dictate to the owner what rent he is allowed to charge tenants.

that's your first mistake. Sure why not? With the circumstances that exist in the city and the games many of these owners play, both slum and greedy, I don't see this being a problem at all.