Compuware stores disappearing.....

[wazootyman]

Hubris and denial

Anymore this forum just plain sucks. Speak anything but pure negativity and you're declared to be in denial. Optimism apparently has no value in Detroit, so let's just get together and cry about it.

Detroit is an awful, hopeless place full of abandoned buildings. Discuss.

[DetroitDad]

Anymore this forum just plain sucks. Speak anything but pure negativity and you're declared to be in denial. Optimism apparently has no value in Detroit, so let's just get together and cry about it.

Detroit is an awful, hopeless place full of abandoned buildings. Discuss.

Well, saying something "has potential" is a nice way of saying how it "sucks" now.

So no, I don't think we're in denial. We have our challenges and we are either addressing them, or they are addressing us...

[English]

We need commercial rent control in the city of Detroit until such time when this city recovers. Like an earlier poster said, a recurring theme is that often when a business manages to do well, the landlords jack up the rent. It happened to the Borders, and it happened to my favorite restaurant in Midtown of the past 10 years, Agave. Cafe de Troit also had an evil landlord.

If this city is serious about making a comeback, it HAS to take care of this problem. Seems that landlords would rather make $0 than a reasonable rent.

[Hermod]

We need commercial rent control in the city of Detroit until such time when this city recovers. Like an earlier poster said, a recurring theme is that often when a business manages to do well, the landlords jack up the rent. It happened to the Borders, and it happened to my favorite restaurant in Midtown of the past 10 years, Agave. Cafe de Troit also had an evil landlord.

If this city is serious about making a comeback, it HAS to take care of this problem. Seems that landlords would rather make $0 than a reasonable rent.

And what, pray tell, is "reasonable"?

Stores and restaurants could really do well if their wholesalers had "reasonable" prices, their employees made "reasonable" wages, and the utilities charged "reasonable" rates.

I could eat out a whole lot more than I do if the restaurants that I like charged me more "reasonable" prices.

Do you think the folks at city hall who now how to do "reasonable tax assessments" are skilled in determining "reasonable" rents?

[English]

And what, pray tell, is "reasonable"?

Stores and restaurants could really do well if their wholesalers had "reasonable" prices, their employees made "reasonable" wages, and the utilities charged "reasonable" rates.

I could eat out a whole lot more than I do if the restaurants that I like charged me more "reasonable" prices.

Do you think the folks at city hall who now how to do "reasonable tax assessments" are skilled in determining "reasonable" rents?

How is making $0 better than making the amount of the original lease?

[Hermod]

How is making $0 better than making the amount of the original lease?

It is a business decision that an owner has to make. If you are trying to sell your house and I make a lowball offer to you, you have to make the decision to keep your house and try to sell it to someone else or to take my offer and get it sold now. This assumes you really need to sell your house and are not just fishing for offers.

The owner of any rental property needs to decide whether to cave in to a lowball rent offer or to keep the property on the market for an economic rental. There is also a "cost" in having the place rented in terms of having to administer the rental.

My post though was having the city determine the "reasonable" rental and not allow the market to determine the rate.



.

[East Detroit]

Anymore this forum just plain sucks. Speak anything but pure negativity and you're declared to be in denial. Optimism apparently has no value in Detroit, so let's just get together and cry about it.

No doubt, but then again many of the participants came for the "ruins."

[REL]

iheartbooks, I think you "get it".

Look beyond the bookstore model [[hey, look at what's happened to video stores). They are going away, or dramatically shrinking. All of them, not just in Compuware [[By the way, how many of you went to a Borders to browse in person, then went home to click? What would you do if the brink & mortar wasn't there?).

Take an example like a locally-owned hardware store, like Busy Bee, vs. Lowes & Home Depot. Or Pewabic pottery vs. Crate & Barrel [[double-bonus points, not just a locally-owned store & locally made!). Or Eastern Market vs. Kroger.

For every dollar spent in your locally-owned independent stores, 68 cents returns to your local economy [[more if it's locally made). If you spend that in a national chain, only 43 cents stays here. Shop online and none of it comes home.

Every dollar we spend has so much power. Shopping mostly at chains, then complaining about stores going out of business is like complaining about our elected officials then not voting.

www.the350project.net/home.html

[canuck]

Makes cents!

[mikeg19]

iheartbooks, I think you "get it".

Look beyond the bookstore model [[hey, look at what's happened to video stores). They are going away, or dramatically shrinking. All of them, not just in Compuware [[By the way, how many of you went to a Borders to browse in person, then went home to click? What would you do if the brink & mortar wasn't there?).

Take an example like a locally-owned hardware store, like Busy Bee, vs. Lowes & Home Depot. Or Pewabic pottery vs. Crate & Barrel [[double-bonus points, not just a locally-owned store & locally made!). Or Eastern Market vs. Kroger.

For every dollar spent in your locally-owned independent stores, 68 cents returns to your local economy [[more if it's locally made). If you spend that in a national chain, only 43 cents stays here. Shop online and none of it comes home.

Every dollar we spend has so much power. Shopping mostly at chains, then complaining about stores going out of business is like complaining about our elected officials then not voting.

www.the350project.net/home.html

Very true. But the fact of the matter is why would I go to Borders/Barnes & Noble when I can go on Amazon and buy the book for $5 less and get free shipping? What are these companies going to do to fight that thinking? Netflix is destroying Blockbuster, soon enough there won't be a Blockbuster anymore. I personally will go to a book store, check out a book to see if I like it, and if I know I can get it cheaper online, I buy it online. I mean if were talking about a couple bucks no big deal. But if I can save $10 or $20 on an item, I'm gonna do it.

[HazenPingree]

Very true. But the fact of the matter is why would I go to Borders/Barnes & Noble when I can go on Amazon and buy the book for $5 less and get free shipping? What are these companies going to do to fight that thinking? Netflix is destroying Blockbuster, soon enough there won't be a Blockbuster anymore. I personally will go to a book store, check out a book to see if I like it, and if I know I can get it cheaper online, I buy it online. I mean if were talking about a couple bucks no big deal. But if I can save $10 or $20 on an item, I'm gonna do it.

Then there won't be stores anymore. We'll save a bundle.

[RickBeall]

For me, the sad fact is that the is much more choice of books online. The books I want don't even exist at the local bookstore.

The local book store will have 3 to 10 books on a topic, you go to Amazon.com and can pick from 100, and of them are out of print, but someone happens to be selling it used.

How does a local book store compete with that?.

[English]

It is a business decision that an owner has to make. If you are trying to sell your house and I make a lowball offer to you, you have to make the decision to keep your house and try to sell it to someone else or to take my offer and get it sold now. This assumes you really need to sell your house and are not just fishing for offers.

The owner of any rental property needs to decide whether to cave in to a lowball rent offer or to keep the property on the market for an economic rental. There is also a "cost" in having the place rented in terms of having to administer the rental.

My post though was having the city determine the "reasonable" rental and not allow the market to determine the rate.
.

Point taken. The problem with this point of view is that Detroit is not a normal commercial real estate market and has not been for a long time. By holding out for what they believe is a "reasonable" rental rate, properties remain vacant for 5, 10, 20, and even 30-40 years.

[Hermod]

Point taken. The problem with this point of view is that Detroit is not a normal commercial real estate market and has not been for a long time. By holding out for what they believe is a "reasonable" rental rate, properties remain vacant for 5, 10, 20, and even 30-40 years.

I would assume that the property owners are rational, sentient humans.

They seem to feel that letting a space be empty is more advantageous economically than leasing it out it at a lower rent. Possibly he is just hanging on with the building in hopes that the land under it will become insanely valuable when the "Detroit Renaissance" arrives.

Your position is that the city should take control and dictate to the owner what rent he is allowed to charge tenants.

[English]

I would assume that the property owners are rational, sentient humans.

They seem to feel that letting a space be empty is more advantageous economically than leasing it out it at a lower rent. Possibly he is just hanging on with the building in hopes that the land under it will become insanely valuable when the "Detroit Renaissance" arrives.

Many property owners have done so for longer than my lifetime. The result is apparent.

Your position is that the city should take control and dictate to the owner what rent he is allowed to charge tenants.

Not exactly.

[Stosh]

I would assume that the property owners are rational, sentient humans.

They seem to feel that letting a space be empty is more advantageous economically than leasing it out it at a lower rent. Possibly he is just hanging on with the building in hopes that the land under it will become insanely valuable when the "Detroit Renaissance" arrives.

Your position is that the city should take control and dictate to the owner what rent he is allowed to charge tenants.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are property owners allowed to write off losses from buildings if they sit empty?

[Hermod]

Correct me if I am wrong, but are property owners allowed to write off losses from buildings if they sit empty?

If they have a lot of rental property under a corporate umbrella, losses on one building can be used to soak up profits on another building for tax purposes. If they are writing off losses under their personal income taxes, there is a time limit on number of years before the government decrees that the business is a "hobby" and not a real business.

If they do have profitable real estate holdings and an empty building is not fully depreciated, the depreciation of the empty building can be charged off against their profits elsewhere.

That is the reason there is a lot of churning of commercial real estate. Once it has been completely depreciated, sell it to someone else so he can start taking depreciation from the price.

Auto dealers depreciate their building. They then sell it to a REIT and lease the building back. After the REIT depreciates the building, they sell it back to the auto dealer who begins a new cycle of depreciation.

The US tax code is a wonder to behold.

[casscorridor]

How many landlords exist on the merchant's row strip? is part of the reason so many storefronts are vacant because the landlords charge so much?

I would think stores would want to open up along that strip, but maybe the costs are too high... and rent is a major cost. Couldn't they lower their rent to attract businesses?

Some buildings around the Downtown area have every storefront filled, while others have none. Sometimes they are next door to each other. I think landlord problems is a logical explanation.

I don't think chain stores are going to be looking to open in many places, period. But if the landlords willingly lowered rents or where forced to, I think businesses would open, even in this horrible economy. People are looking to start their own businesses now, more than ever before.

I walked through the Kresege Shops recently... more shops are filling in.... slowly. I think it could potentially be an anchor for other stores. But eventually major anchors will be needed.

The Border's store was too small to be considered an anchor. A Target would be perfect, and would be successful even if it opened today. I also think a shops inside a renovated David Whitney Building would be awesome. And a department store on lower levels of a new building on the Hudson's Block. Maybe a Target and a movie theatre on the Monroe block like what was proposed for Cadillac Center.

I think once the light-rail is in place, this area will really take off. I know it will.

[Zacha341]

A Target downtown would be great! And I recall the shops in the David Whitney building... the horseshoe layout of that building was wonderful to walk about in, and look down from the mezzanine.

How many landlords exist on the merchant's row strip? is part of the reason so many storefronts are vacant because the landlords charge so much?

I would think stores would want to open up along that strip, but maybe the costs are too high... and rent is a major cost. Couldn't they lower their rent to attract businesses?

Some buildings around the Downtown area have every storefront filled, while others have none. Sometimes they are next door to each other. I think landlord problems is a logical explanation.

I don't think chain stores are going to be looking to open in many places, period. But if the landlords willingly lowered rents or where forced to, I think businesses would open, even in this horrible economy. People are looking to start their own businesses now, more than ever before.

I walked through the Kresege Shops recently... more shops are filling in.... slowly. I think it could potentially be an anchor for other stores. But eventually major anchors will be needed.

The Border's store was too small to be considered an anchor. A Target would be perfect, and would be successful even if it opened today. I also think a shops inside a renovated David Whitney Building would be awesome. And a department store on lower levels of a new building on the Hudson's Block. Maybe a Target and a movie theatre on the Monroe block like what was proposed for Cadillac Center.

I think once the light-rail is in place, this area will really take off. I know it will.

[Hermod]

I don't think chain stores are going to be looking to open in many places, period. But if the landlords willingly lowered rents or where forced to, I think businesses would open, even in this horrible economy. People are looking to start their own businesses now, more than ever before.

I walked through the Kresege Shops recently... more shops are filling in.... slowly. I think it could potentially be an anchor for other stores. But eventually major anchors will be needed.

The Border's store was too small to be considered an anchor. A Target would be perfect, and would be successful even if it opened today. I also think a shops inside a renovated David Whitney Building would be awesome. And a department store on lower levels of a new building on the Hudson's Block. Maybe a Target and a movie theatre on the Monroe block like what was proposed for Cadillac Center.

I think once the light-rail is in place, this area will really take off. I know it will.

If you sprinkle pixie dust on Great Lakes Crossing, it will all just fly into downtown Detroit.

[Zacha341]

Yes, the internet has had an impact on bookstores no doubt. For one book sales in some areas are down due to the economy and access so info via the web, and the ability to purchased books new, used and hard to find on the likes of Amazon and Ebay... well it's harder for a brick and mortar bookstore indeed. No matter where it is.....

For me, the sad fact is that the is much more choice of books online. The books I want don't even exist at the local bookstore.

The local book store will have 3 to 10 books on a topic, you go to Amazon.com and can pick from 100, and of them are out of print, but someone happens to be selling it used.

How does a local book store compete with that?.

[REL]

Very true. But the fact of the matter is why would I go to Borders/Barnes & Noble when I can go on Amazon and buy the book for $5 less and get free shipping? What are these companies going to do to fight that thinking? Netflix is destroying Blockbuster, soon enough there won't be a Blockbuster anymore. "I personally will go to a book store, check out a book to see if I like it", and if I know I can get it cheaper online, I buy it online. I mean if were talking about a couple bucks no big deal. But if I can save $10 or $20 on an item, I'm gonna do it.

Please read my first paragraph again... I said remove yourself from the bookstore example, because brick & mortar bookstores are going through a transition. But even within my example, with all due respect, you prove my point:

What happens when the store isn't there anymore for you to "check out" merchandise? Eventually, they will not be there...

[wolverine]

Very true. But the fact of the matter is why would I go to Borders/Barnes & Noble when I can go on Amazon and buy the book for $5 less and get free shipping? What are these companies going to do to fight that thinking? Netflix is destroying Blockbuster, soon enough there won't be a Blockbuster anymore. I personally will go to a book store, check out a book to see if I like it, and if I know I can get it cheaper online, I buy it online. I mean if were talking about a couple bucks no big deal. But if I can save $10 or $20 on an item, I'm gonna do it.

They can't do anything. They can't compete. Essentially you pay more so that people are employed, and there exists a brick and mortar store in your local businesses district. Without it you have nothing.

I personally find people who champion sense of place, yet buy all their books and clothes online as hypocrites.

Since my city has a good chunk of the population who don't use the internet to do their shopping or a stable enough income for paying monthly fees on netflix, there are tons of blockbusters doing well, and we haven't had a borders or Barnes and Noble close yet.

[downtownguy]

iheartbooks, I think you "get it".

Look beyond the bookstore model [[hey, look at what's happened to video stores). They are going away, or dramatically shrinking. All of them, not just in Compuware [[By the way, how many of you went to a Borders to browse in person, then went home to click? What would you do if the brink & mortar wasn't there?).

I would use amazon to read the book reviews, and then check Border's online site to see if my choice was in stock at Compuware. If so, I would walk over with my Border's ecoupons and buy it.

I have not shopped at Hudson's/Dayton's/Marshall Field's since they closed my neighborhood [[read: downtown) store, but will do so when [[if!) they return. When I need something that requires a trip out to a suburban mall, then I gladly go online to shop. Detroit may have lost population, but we still have 800,000 people that the chains shouldn't take for granted.

[Hermod]

I have not shopped at Hudson's/Dayton's/Marshall Field's/Macy's since they closed my neighborhood [[read: downtown) store, but will do so when [[if!) they return. When I need something that requires a trip out to a suburban mall, then I gladly go online to shop. Detroit may have lost population, but we still have 800,000 people that the chains shouldn't take for granted.

FIFY

Lots of those 800,000 seem to show up at Great Lakes Crossing.