When Will Enough Ever Be Enough? [[2011 Murder Rate)

**jolla** · January-04-12, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Modusvivendi

Honestly, I don't see why people live in Detroit.

In all honesty, I don't either. Maybe if you are rich and can afford a nice [[gated, patrolled) place, then sure, but if you have to live among the criminals, why stay?

**mwilbert** · January-04-12, 09:19 PM

The idea that one particular thing is the primary cause of Detroit's high crime rate seems very improbable.

Culture, policing, opportunity, criminal justice, drugs, education presumably are all factors.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-04-12, 11:41 PM

mwilbert = wise

**coracle** · January-05-12, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

The idea that one particular thing is the primary cause of Detroit's high crime rate seems very improbable.

Culture, policing, opportunity, criminal justice, drugs, education presumably are all factors.

You're right, all these things are factors, but the overriding factor is GUNS. Without GUNS the other factors would still exist but would not be capable of being expressed in such a deadly manner. If we could magically get rid of one of the many reasons causing the high murder rate I'm confident that ridding ourselves of GUNS would pay the biggest dividend.

**rjk** · January-05-12, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by coracle

You're right, all these things are factors, but the overriding factor is GUNS. Without GUNS the other factors would still exist but would not be capable of being expressed in such a deadly manner. If we could magically get rid of one of the many reasons causing the high murder rate I'm confident that ridding ourselves of GUNS would pay the biggest dividend.

And how do we get rid of guns? If there's a big enough demand for guns people will find a way to provide them. People want drugs and we certainly can't keep drugs out of this country.

**gnome** · January-05-12, 07:16 AM

English, the same has been said about suicide bombers. Hopeless young men who feel the need of "Absolutes".

**lpg** · January-05-12, 03:50 PM

You can't legislate morality. It was tried with Prohibition to end the evils of drink. People will obey the laws they choose to. Didn't the Canadian government back away from some of their gun control laws due to public backlash ? And I ask the same question again about gun control, how would it be enforced ? Detroit had a gun buy back that netted some results. On a Federal level ??? Using the forms that you filled out to purchase a firearm as a means to come to your house and confiscate them ? As rjk stated above people will find a way to get what they want legal or not.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-06-12, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by lpg

You can't legislate morality. It was tried with Prohibition to end the evils of drink. People will obey the laws they choose to. Didn't the Canadian government back away from some of their gun control laws due to public backlash ? ....

Yes, Canada is struggling with its laws. Long guns in particular are the issue. There's little debate about handguns, at least until the long-gun issue settles. But the population there that I know all are in favour of the handgun ban. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada

Only time will tell if this experiment works. Canada came from a place of great relative safety as regards handguns, so they're really just trying to keep Canada free of guns.

What I think we can learn from Canada is that it is possible to manage guns. I don't think a complete ban is wise -- and I think Canada will learn this as they mature. But I do think we can reduce availability and improve registration and tracking.

Let's not turn a handgun ban into another morality mission like the drug ban. That isn't working. At massive social costs to our cities, financial costs to government, and corrupting effects to our police departments. Save the money, create jobs, a manage handguns, drugs, alcohol wisely.

[[Pardon rant -- its the coffee -- my drug of choice.)

**firstandten** · January-06-12, 12:19 AM

Right now a felony committed while using a gun will get you 2 years to go along with your sentence. How about 7 years or 10 years in addition to what ever sentence you get. That way people can still have there guns, but it they use them to hurt someone the penalty is real high.

**detroitsgwenivere** · January-06-12, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by firstandten

Right now a felony committed while using a gun will get you 2 years to go along with your sentence. How about 7 years or 10 years in addition to what ever sentence you get. That way people can still have there guns, but it they use them to hurt someone the penalty is real high.

Because the penalty is already high yet people just keep shooting each other. And this is because people either don't care about going to jail, have no intention of being taken alive, or think they will never get caught.

You can make a gun out of parts from the hardware store. You can order individual parts from the internet and put a gun together. Bullets are even easier to make. Rogue cops have access to guns like they have access to the drugs in the evidence room that "mysteriously disappear". Taking guns away from law abidding citizens only leaves them more vulnerable to the criminals who will always have access to them, especially folks in rural and Detroit like areas, since police are not going to show up fast enough to save you when the wolf shows up at your door.

Like that poor single widow who just shot and killed that a-hole who spent 20 minutes trying to bust down her front door. You know, the story that the news keeps repeating over and over again?

**Switchmanjim** · January-06-12, 11:49 PM

...at least TWO more fatal shootings tonight... not to mention numerous RA's ....

This city is OUT-OF-CONTROL but we already knew that.

**wolverine** · January-07-12, 12:21 AM

48 murders per 100,000. Unbelievable.

Homicide Counts in 2011 for several large cities:

Cleveland | Pop: 396,814 | Homicides: 88 / Up
Baltimore | Pop: 620,961 | Homicides: 196 / Down
Detroit | Pop: 713,777 | Homicides: 346 / Up
Philadelphia | Pop: 1,526,006 | Homicides: 324 / Down
Chicago | Pop: 2,695,598 | Homicides: 436 / Down
Los Angeles | Pop: 3,792,621 | Homicides 298 / Down
New York City | Pop: 8,175,133 | Homicides: 490 / Down

In general, homicides in American cities have been in historical decline over the past 3 decades. Even as some cities have lost population historically, rates have gone down faster than population, or cities have increased in growth, but continue to see crime numbers decrease. Detroit is the only unfortunate exception, where the city has lost a substantial amount of population, yet it still posts huge counts. Basically, crime in Detroit is almost twice as bad or greater than any large city in the United States.

Ravine · January-07-12, 01:04 AM

I've lived in Detroit for 36 years and have never owned a gun.
A shitload of folks own guns and have never used them to attack anyone.
If you choose to believe that tighter gun-control laws will effect a solution of any kind, you are ignoring the fact that the chickenshit thugs who are committing almost all of the gun-violence have never given a damn, do not give a damn, and will never give a damn about laws.
Identifying a symptom and treating the symptom provides temporary relief for minor ailments.
The male vs. male gun-violence in Detroit is a symptom of a major, raging disease, and tighter gun-control laws would have about as much impact as an application of Vicks Vapo-Rub.

**coracle** · January-07-12, 08:27 AM

Interesting figures from wolverine -

48 murders per 100,000. Unbelievable.

Homicide Counts in 2011 for several large cities:

Cleveland | Pop: 396,814 | Homicides: 88 / Up
Baltimore | Pop: 620,961 | Homicides: 196 / Down
Detroit | Pop: 713,777 | Homicides: 346 / Up
Philadelphia | Pop: 1,526,006 | Homicides: 324 / Down
Chicago | Pop: 2,695,598 | Homicides: 436 / Down
Los Angeles | Pop: 3,792,621 | Homicides 298 / Down
New York City | Pop: 8,175,133 | Homicides: 490 / Down

The Detroit figure of 48 per 100,000 is calculated by dividing 2011 murders by 2010 population whereas based in the previous 10 years there has been a population loss of about 25,000 [[approx) per year which would make 2011 population about 689,000 and a murder rate of for 2011 of 50 per 100,000.

**canuck** · January-07-12, 10:28 AM

Another element to look for in the homicide puzzle is the cultural reinforcement of crime in the media. There is a long standing tradition of glamorizing crime, in particular violent crime; and we are all suckers for this. From the James brothers on, there has been a hyped-up monumental attraction to criminal behavior. If you add the ghetto ingredient to the mix where kids are brought up in a secluded, more or less inbred fucked-up environment; you get trouble. The violence is institutionalized and codified to a very refined degree in fashion, music and video images that promote anti-social behavior. A lot of this gang-banger mentality is promoted from within the afro-american or latino communities by gang affiliated musicians that profit from this gang recruiting strategy. When you equate crime with success in popular media; you are asking for deep shit to occur. Compare today's cultural landscape to the Motown years in terms of message, and they are obviously worlds apart.