Time to Start Discussing Bus Rapid Transit [[BRT) Systems

[cramerro]

"IMO, this system has a far greater potential to contribute to building a successful regional transit system than the light rail. I was upset last night, but after reading all the posts and thinking it through, it almost seems like Snyder knew what he was talking about with his BRT plan. And this shift of Federal money right into that wheelhouse will get the system off the ground and limit the funding problem to operating instead of funding to build the whole thing from the ground-up. "

Maybe Patterson will fund ponies for everyone too? Where's the money going to come from to operate this system?

Obviously there will have to be something. A vehicle fee, a sales tax, something. My point is that for the BRT network Snyder outlined, I'd be they can make it happen for close to the $550M that it was going to cost for the LRT line just in the City. Then, you are asking for money to operate [[$10-20M/year?) instead of operations and the money to build the system. If this money can be leveraged to build the whole BRT system, you ahve a lot more to start with than 9 mile track to the state fairgrounds. BRT could possibly benefit from sharing use of SMART and DDOT facilities. SMART has terminals within 1 mile of Michigan and Gratiot, and about 1.5 miles from Woodward, which might be able to support BRT, whereas Light rail needs compeletely separate facilities.

As for BRT costing too much, there are almost infinite levels of BRT. Around here, you could do almost the bare minimum and it would be like getting on the spaceship of the future to people in te region. Our traffic especially along these arteries is pretty heavy, but they are also Michigan Boulevards or whatever you want to call them. They have freeway-like capacities and levels of service for moving traffic, meaning taking away a lane for the BRT won't grind the system to a halt. It's those types of issues that force the likes of Ottawa or Seattle to build BRT tunnels and bypasses and all sorts of expensive stuff.

1. Spaced out stops where you can pre-pay and have decent shelter, and transfer to other 'local' buses. They don't all have to be as heavy-duty as the LRT stops.
2. Real-time arrival to go with reduced headways and bigger buses.
3. A network of easy-to-understand routes [[the RED line, the BLUE line, etc).
4. Coordinated local bus.
5. Dedicated lanes with signal pre-emption.

Is it as good as light rail? No. But it can have a significant impact on attracting 'chioce' riders to transit, especially if it is NOT run by DDOT and can focus on reliable, safe, efficient service.

[Detroitnerd]

L. Brooks took the mother of my children.

Well, put some lipstick on this sow and I'll marry her instead. Prolly good enough.

[ghettopalmetto]

1. Spaced out stops where you can pre-pay and have decent shelter, and transfer to other 'local' buses. They don't all have to be as heavy-duty as the LRT stops.
2. Real-time arrival to go with reduced headways and bigger buses.
3. A network of easy-to-understand routes [[the RED line, the BLUE line, etc).
4. Coordinated local bus.
5. Dedicated lanes with signal pre-emption.

I have a few follow-up questions.

1. How do you know the bus is coming? I mean, considering the performance of the existing bus systems, how does one know the bus will be on-time after a snowstorm? Is the wheelchair lift operational?

2. How do you know where the bus is going? Have they changed the route? Do you have the new schedule? Where is the closest stop? Is the signpost still there???

3. Why can't any of these Numbers 1-5 you've listed be implemented as part of the existing system, without spending millions of dollars to sell some sort of "revolutionary" new lipsticked pig?


4. The primary reason Woodward Light Rail was able to attract private investment dollars is because it would provide a return on investment in the form of development. Do we think it telling that no one is lining up to provide private investment for a gussied-up bus service?

[Hypestyles]

... So who is going to own and operate these buses/the system? DDOT? SMART? M-DOT? Another group entirely? So then this means a "regional transit authority"?-- the one that has never actually been implemented yet.. look for unending "preliminary/exploratory discussions/research/fact-finding, etc."..

[JBMcB]

Not entirely surprising. The California high-speed rail system has had it's projected budget triple and the duration double, and they haven't even broken ground yet. They need to get money from somewhere. We'll just divert all federal rail monies to that project, then.

[begingri]

Not sure if this deserved its own thread, but I figured I'd post it here first.

Leaders switch to 34-station regional rapid bus system; Levin criticizes plan

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111...riticizes-plan

[bailey]

Not sure if this deserved its own thread, but I figured I'd post it here first.

Leaders switch to 34-station regional rapid bus system; Levin criticizes plan


http://www.detnews.com/article/20111...riticizes-plan

OMFG.... they want to add ANOTHER bus system!?! I thought this was supposed to at least replace those two. Is this from the Onion?

Bing denied the bus system would compete with SMART or the Detroit Department of Transportation, or might even lead to the demise of DDOT.
"It should complement both SMART and DDOT," he said. "It provides access for Detroiters to areas outside of the city and opens up opportunities for our suburban partners to come into Detroit."

[Det_ard]

Create a regional transit system governed by population-weighted representation. In other words, Detroit has a voice but the suburbs have 80% of the vote, hence de facto control. Yes, we're stealing Detroit's DDOT jewel but even Detroiters will admit [[to each other) most everything run by Detroit is a disaster. Call it a benevolent dictatorship.

The coming EFM will help smooth the way by blowing up the unions that otherwise would [[and previously have) stood in the way of regionalism. It may not be very palatable to Detroiters, understandably, but it's the only way to avoid Detroit's managerial incompetence and garner the suburb's financial support while building a regional transit system.

Then design a regional transit system, not People Mover 2.0 that ends at 8 Mile and is fed by a failing bus system. Whether the regional system is LR or BRT, if more than the current 2% of folks find it useful, because it will be useful for the masses if properly designed, there'll be support for funding it.

Otherwise, plop a LR spur up Woodward and fund it by a special $1000 Senior Year tax on undergrads attending Michigan colleges. So many have claimed they'll decamp for Chi-town if they don't get a train set under the Christmas tree that I expect they actually support this slight increase in their student loan portfolio. Figure 40,000 college seniors times $1000 and you have a $40 million annual operating subsidy. They'll be happy riding the train up and down Woodward and the rest of us will be relieved that we don't have to listen to their ultimatums that they'll take their urbanity-loving economy-saving big brains to choo-choo town if they can't locomote here.

[JBMcB]

Looks good to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzlqNp8R90A

[[Someone may have already posted this, but it's still funny.)

[Tig3rzhark]

Looks good to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzlqNp8R90A

[[Someone may have already posted this, but it's still funny.)

I've looked @ the video, and it looks very stupid to me.

The bus just looks like a loco with wheels, while putting out the same pollution of regular buses. Even if there were designated lanes, there's still traffic jams that it could end up in the middle of.

On main streets like Woodward, a safe median would have to be established so people can cross the street, to get to the station. The stop lights would have to be timed to the buses passing by the location, or it would be no better than what we're getting now.

I always wondered why DDOT/SMART never tracks their buses in real time. There should be an Android app for all the buses that run around here, so we know exactly when they are going to show up and depart from a stop, instead of putting up a schedule and hope for the best that they arrive on time. Because calling DDOT just to find out if your bus is running on time doesn't make sense. It's a waste of money. Same goes for SMART

[corktownyuppie]

Obviously there will have to be something. A vehicle fee, a sales tax, something. My point is that for the BRT network Snyder outlined, I'd be they can make it happen for close to the $550M that it was going to cost for the LRT line just in the City. Then, you are asking for money to operate [[$10-20M/year?) instead of operations and the money to build the system. If this money can be leveraged to build the whole BRT system, you ahve a lot more to start with than 9 mile track to the state fairgrounds. BRT could possibly benefit from sharing use of SMART and DDOT facilities. SMART has terminals within 1 mile of Michigan and Gratiot, and about 1.5 miles from Woodward, which might be able to support BRT, whereas Light rail needs compeletely separate facilities.

As for BRT costing too much, there are almost infinite levels of BRT. Around here, you could do almost the bare minimum and it would be like getting on the spaceship of the future to people in te region. Our traffic especially along these arteries is pretty heavy, but they are also Michigan Boulevards or whatever you want to call them. They have freeway-like capacities and levels of service for moving traffic, meaning taking away a lane for the BRT won't grind the system to a halt. It's those types of issues that force the likes of Ottawa or Seattle to build BRT tunnels and bypasses and all sorts of expensive stuff.

1. Spaced out stops where you can pre-pay and have decent shelter, and transfer to other 'local' buses. They don't all have to be as heavy-duty as the LRT stops.
2. Real-time arrival to go with reduced headways and bigger buses.
3. A network of easy-to-understand routes [[the RED line, the BLUE line, etc).
4. Coordinated local bus.
5. Dedicated lanes with signal pre-emption.

Is it as good as light rail? No. But it can have a significant impact on attracting 'chioce' riders to transit, especially if it is NOT run by DDOT and can focus on reliable, safe, efficient service.

I agree with you.

Am I happy about losing light rail? Of course not. Let's just remember that this region has tried 29 times to get a Regional Transit Authority through legislatures. 29 times. TWENTY NINE TIMES.

If this is what it's going to take to get the RTA through, then I'm fine with it. Hell, I'm happy with it. Because once the RTA is formed, once the thing is built, then EVERYONE WILL HAVE SOME SKIN IN THE GAME. And we can have some REAL transit discussions.

It's been said that the most difficult part in building mass transit is building the first line. If this is what it takes to get a rudimentary transit system and a regional authority, then I'll live with it.

Here are my minimum requirements:

- Dedicated lanes. Meaning a physical barrier preventing from other vehicles from moving in.
- Routes from DTW to Downtown Detroit. And then Downtown to Pontiac, Downtown to Selfridge, Downtown to Novi. And I'm fine with Hall Rd.
- High end, climate controlled stops and stations

No it's not perfect. Hell, I wouldn't even call it good.

But then we will have got the hardest part done, getting an RTA, and doing some bare minimum transit stuff. And then as the economy improves, and and more people become sold on the system, then we can talk about making it better.

Look, the hardest thing to do is sell someone on an abstract idea that they can't see. Throw in a severe economic downturn that is causing people to pinch pennies. Add a dysfunctional political environment that almost disincents cooperation. Add high ignorance and provincial thinking?

Just getting an RTA through legislature should be seen as a major accomplishment.

[corktownyuppie]

I've looked @ the video, and it looks very stupid to me.

The bus just looks like a loco with wheels, while putting out the same pollution of regular buses. Even if there were designated lanes, there's still traffic jams that it could end up in the middle of.

On main streets like Woodward, a safe median would have to be established so people can cross the street, to get to the station. The stop lights would have to be timed to the buses passing by the location, or it would be no better than what we're getting now.

I always wondered why DDOT/SMART never tracks their buses in real time. There should be an Android app for all the buses that run around here, so we know exactly when they are going to show up and depart from a stop, instead of putting up a schedule and hope for the best that they arrive on time. Because calling DDOT just to find out if your bus is running on time doesn't make sense. It's a waste of money. Same goes for SMART

I'm not going to joint the debate about bus vs. train, because I'm just too ignorant to know what I'm talking about. From what I understand from the news interviews I've seen is that the buses wouldn't just have dedicated lanes, they would be barricaded from other vehicles and then given the ability to change the traffic signals as they approach in order to ensure they pass without stopping.

So there won't be traffic jams in that sense.

Yes, I agree. If this is just a glorified DDOT/SMART thing, it just defeats the purpose.

[Tig3rzhark]

Maybe there is someone that can answer this question for me.

Is there any transit authority in the USA that actually track where these buses are and give the rider the exact time that it would arrive at a bus stop?

[stasu1213]

You want a discussion. Let's discuss....
BRT is dead on arrival because suburbanites and Detroiters like me will not choose to park their cars to ride Snyder's high-speed buses. Why is DDOT and SMART dying? Because citizens will not choose to park their cars to ride buses. Not going to happen.

Had Detroit given special attention to it's transportation system in the 70s more people would had ridden the busses instead being force to buy an automobile just to get around. Riders started experiencing problems with DDOt during the middle 70s

[ghettopalmetto]

Maybe there is someone that can answer this question for me.

Is there any transit authority in the USA that actually track where these buses are and give the rider the exact time that it would arrive at a bus stop?

Pretty sure AATA in Ann Arbor tracks buses using GPS, as does WMATA in the National Capital area [[with varying degrees of success).

[Hypestyles]

with all the tea-party acolytes in the state legislature, who would realistically sign off on creating a SE-Michigan transit authority?

[biggus]

Unless, of course, you try to provide bus service that attempts to replicate light rail operating characteristics. Then you can get into some pretty heavy capital expenditures, and still have the higher operating costs [[SEE: Cleveland).

Here is a video case study of the BRT in Cleveland. It looks like it has been pretty sucessful for them. The question is will there be sufficient resources dedicated to maintaining this infrastructure? Anybody can build a BRT system.

[Gsgeorge]

I've looked @ the video, and it looks very stupid to me.

The bus just looks like a loco with wheels, while putting out the same pollution of regular buses. Even if there were designated lanes, there's still traffic jams that it could end up in the middle of.

Dude, that video is a parody, it's not real.

[Pam]

Here is a video case study of the BRT in Cleveland. It looks like it has been pretty sucessful for them. The question is will there be sufficient resources dedicated to maintaining this infrastructure? Anybody can build a BRT system.

Thanks, interesting video.

[phil235]

Ottawa doesn't have any tunnelled portions in its BRT system, except for a couple of short sections of transitway that go under highways or major streets. However, Ottawa is in the process of converting the main east-west transitway to light rail, which will include a tunnel through downtown.

One of the problems with the bus system is that congestion gets too great through the downtown portion, causing significant delays. Another problem is that the amount of transit-oriented development around stations has not been as high as hoped. At least annecdotally, BRT doesn't seem to have the same influence on land development patterns as does LRT.

The system does work very well moving people in less dense areas outside of the core of the city, and transit ridership is very strong in the Ottawa-Gatineau metropolitan area. Off hours, it works well downtown as well. As Detroit is largely low density and probably doesn't have the same concentration of employment in the downtown area that Ottawa does, BRT may be a good option for at least some routes. Still, I don't think that it is a good solution for intensifying areas in the core. It's a shame that the LRT has been cancelled.

[Zaiko]

Let us stop aiming low. We should be aiming for heavy rail, criss crossing the city and suburbs. If Snyder was held to his campaign pledge of rebuilding Michigan he would force Brooks and Bing into it. Kresge's trips for Bing in Italy weren't enough to broaden his mind. He has no vision.

Aim high and get something half way up instead of aiming low and getting nothing. BRT at its very best would only be partially helpful. Realistic BRT could setback decent transit for 4 more decades.

Some of the backroom dealings can be explained here.

http://www.michigannow.org/2011/12/1...buses-vs-rail/

[Hypestyles]

The Regional Authority is where this plan will falter. Too many selfish regional leaders will balk, especially if the reality involved means sharing monetary resources and/or instituting any form of tax to bring in revenue. You will have the same situation with SMART where entire communities want to "opt out" and therefore block buses from lighting anywhere in their communities. State legislation that forbids any form of "opt out" by communities would help, but not in this far-right led state legislature. In Michigan, parochialism rules, even if its to our shared downfall.

[schulzte]

This is a half serious question. How fast can these buses top out at? If there are physical lane separations on Woodward and Gratiot, they get the automatic green lights at interchanges, and some new smooth pavement, couldn't these buses absolutely haul ass compared to routes in other cities? We're talking basically arrow straight roads here. It seems like the BRT could sell itself to motorists if traffic is backed up at lights and these buses go blazing through interchanges on Woodward at 60 miles an hour. Maybe when it comes time to bid out these buses, they could upgrade the horsepower and torque specs.

[corktownyuppie]

The Regional Authority is where this plan will falter. Too many selfish regional leaders will balk, especially if the reality involved means sharing monetary resources and/or instituting any form of tax to bring in revenue. You will have the same situation with SMART where entire communities want to "opt out" and therefore block buses from lighting anywhere in their communities. State legislation that forbids any form of "opt out" by communities would help, but not in this far-right led state legislature. In Michigan, parochialism rules, even if its to our shared downfall.

Unfortunately, this is where the weak link really is. I think Patterson can be swayed, but not sure if Snyder can get this through state legislature.

[SteveJ]

with all the tea-party acolytes in the state legislature, who would realistically sign off on creating a SE-Michigan transit authority?

Nobody will. Especially in 2012 when its an election year for the state reps.