Time to Start Discussing Bus Rapid Transit [[BRT) Systems

[bailey]

Don't expect a whole lot more.

.... should replace Speramus Meliora; Resurget Cineribus on the flag.

[1953]

I will never ride a bus, nor will anyone I know.

Build light rail.

Let's get vocal.

Who is for Occupy Woodward?!

[iheartthed]

I'm glad someone said it, though, I'd say that it's a stupid question for anyone to ask. It's like asking "why should we even attempt to stop the bleeding?" t's a ridiculous question on its face. I'll say it, again, even though it's already known, there are smaller, less populated, less dense cities with light rail. People seem to be in total shock for whatever that Detroit still has the population density and regional spread with nodes of the metro population to support rail transit. It's not a matter of whether he have the components. This is purely a question of will, and our so-called leaders don't have the will to invest in transit. It's as simple as that.

But it's REALLY stupid for a Chicagoan to ask that question. Numerically speaking, Chicago was only second to Detroit in the number of residents who moved out of the city limits in the last census [[250K from Detroit vs 200K from Chicago). So by that person's logic we should be asking why Chicago still bothers to operate their own train system.

[R8RBOB]

If you have a declining population city why would you have any type of mass transit other than bus? Unless someone feels that light rail down Woodward would help commerce in the corridor. I don't think so. The city is so broke and so dead [[ except downtown) it wouldn't make a difference.

Using some of the cites that ghetto listed.

Seattle 3,439,809
Phoenix 4,192,887
Salt Lake 1,124,197
Denver 2,552,195
San Diego 3,095,313
Charlotte 1,745,524
Baltimore 2,690,886


Detroit 4,296,250

I understand why SE MI and the state as a whole is losing population.

[antongast]

What they haven't said publicly yet, but is pretty clear if you know how Metro Detroit operates... is that the Feds said they won't fund it without an RTA in place [[this was announced several months ago, I believe) but they couldn't get the leadership of a certain county at the northern end of Woodward to commit to a RTA. Macomb is receptive to an RTA, but Woodward does not run through Macomb County so they would not benefit at all from a light rail line along that corridor. The compromise? Start a "regional" system centered on Detroit and Macomb's CBD [[which is M-59 lol) using "high-speed" buses, whatever the hell that means.

Pretty much.

[Novine]

"IMO, this system has a far greater potential to contribute to building a successful regional transit system than the light rail. I was upset last night, but after reading all the posts and thinking it through, it almost seems like Snyder knew what he was talking about with his BRT plan. And this shift of Federal money right into that wheelhouse will get the system off the ground and limit the funding problem to operating instead of funding to build the whole thing from the ground-up. "

Maybe Patterson will fund ponies for everyone too? Where's the money going to come from to operate this system?

[adamjab19]

why don't they figure out, lets say 25 or so stops, from pontiac to downtown and have one bus stop at certain ones and another bus stop at others etc so the line can stay effecient. HAve some feeder lines down the main east west roads and BAM you have yourself a nice little bus system run by ONE entity, supported by three counties....ha!

[Flintoid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l42Tdwjtsww


A plan for BRT in San Francisco. Doesn't look too bad.

[ghettopalmetto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l42Tdwjtsww


A plan for BRT in San Francisco. Doesn't look too bad.

San Francisco also has BART, Muni streetcars, and Caltrain regional rail. They're not counting on a lousy bus to get someone 20 miles across town in a reasonable time frame.

[R8RBOB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l42Tdwjtsww


A plan for BRT in San Francisco. Doesn't look too bad.

Thanks for posting......

Nevertheless, San Francisco is a bad example to use because as ghetto already stated the City has many forms of mass transit. A BRT in San Francisco would be a supplement which a bus transit system of any form should be, not the entire system like we have here in Metro Detroit.

I would think many in the region and even on this forum would mind a BRT if it was going to be a supplement system in a mass transit system that would include light-rail, trains and even cabs but seeing that this is Detroit, the leaders want to build a better bus. Good luck....

[canuck]

Thanks for posting......

Nevertheless, San Francisco is a bad example to use because as ghetto already stated the City has many forms of mass transit. A BRT in San Francisco would be a supplement which a bus transit system of any form should be, not the entire system like we have here in Metro Detroit.

I would think many in the region and even on this forum would mind a BRT if it was going to be a supplement system in a mass transit system that would include light-rail, trains and even cabs but seeing that this is Detroit, the leaders want to build a better bus. Good luck....

And the express bus lines are expensive to implement too. There is one bus line in the east end of Montreal replacing a half-assed median based dedicated lane approach that will cost twice what was projected. The 300 million dollar BRT will travel 10 kms on the Montreal side and then 5kms on Laval island will cost an additional 125 million to complete. And there is a subway station at the southern end at the Olympic stadium site to help it along. [[Pie-Ix station)

The main complaint by some local leaders is that the bus line will better serve suburban residents than city residents... lol

[ghettopalmetto]

Doing a bit of conversion...

$425 million for a 9-1/2 mile BRT line, or $45 million / mile.

You know what else you can build for $45 million / mile that carries more passengers, is cheaper to operate, and promotes intensified economic development?

I assume the BRT line in Ottawa has a tunnel for at least a portion of the route? Even still, it's pretty pricey for a bus route.

[Detroitnerd]

When will this BRT fiasco die? Time to STOP talking about BRT, a bus system that mimics light rail while costing almost as much.

Why, oh, why do they keep foisting this BS on us? Aaarrrggghhhh!!!

[bailey]

When will this BRT fiasco die? Time to STOP talking about BRT, a bus system that mimics light rail while costing almost as much.

Why, oh, why do they keep foisting this BS on us? Aaarrrggghhhh!!!

Because the vast majority of the local populace doesn't want anything done about transit. They view it as too expensive and unnecessary and something they will either not use or not benefit them directly. Metro detroit is what representative democracy looks like. The uniformed, uneducated, provincial mouthbreathers that make up the majority of the voting populace have repeatedly and quite loudly registered their complete rejection of mass transit inititiaves and/or regional cooperation on transit. surely you're not suggesting someone subvert that democracy and force mass transit on a population dead set against it?

[Detroitnerd]

Because the vast majority of the local populace doesn't want anything done about transit. They view it as too expensive and unnecessary and something they will either not use or not benefit them directly. Metro detroit is what representative democracy looks like. The uniformed, uneducated, provincial mouthbreathers that make up the majority of the voting populace have repeatedly and quite loudly registered their complete rejection of mass transit inititiaves and/or regional cooperation on transit. surely you're not suggesting someone subvert that democracy and force mass transit on a population dead set against it?

What do leaders do? Do they exploit the prejudices of the people to ensure their power? No. Those are demagogues.

What leaders do is they see the trends, which way the wind is blowing, whether the seasons to come will be fat or lean, and point the way to a people's survival. That is leadership. Quieting the worst of the prejudices, enlightening people and showing the hard work to be done right now. When gas is $10 or $15 or $20 a gallon, which would we rather have? A bus-only system? Or something that runs on electricity that can be produced by other means?

I can't blame the people too much. People are often sheeple. But the fact is, Detroit's so-called "leaders" don't care about the region's survival at all. They just figure by the time things go boom they'll be dead anyway. So what's the use of planning for a challenging future?

[bailey]

What do leaders do? Do they exploit the prejudices of the people to ensure their power? No. Those are demagogues.

What leaders do is they see the trends, which way the wind is blowing, whether the seasons to come will be fat or lean, and point the way to a people's survival. That is leadership. Quieting the worst of the prejudices, enlightening people and showing the hard work to be done right now. When gas is $10 or $15 or $20 a gallon, which would we rather have? A bus-only system? Or something that runs on electricity that can be produced by other means?

I can't blame the people too much. People are often sheeple. But the fact is, Detroit's so-called "leaders" don't care about the region's survival at all. They just figure by the time things go boom they'll be dead anyway. So what's the use of planning for a challenging future?

well, that is your problem right there. You're looking for leaders. Those don't exist here. We have politicians. There is no use in planning for a challenging future. What we have today is the future. Figure out how to live with it or move. It's been that way around here for about 35 years now... why would anyone expect it to change?

[English]

I can't blame the people too much. People are often sheeple. But the fact is, Detroit's so-called "leaders" don't care about the region's survival at all. They just figure by the time things go boom they'll be dead anyway. So what's the use of planning for a challenging future?

Agreed. It is so frustrating...

[Wesley Mouch]

Typically the Federal money cannot be used to cover operating costs. They were already throwing in lots of money for the capital costs. I don't see how switching from rail to bus really changes the situation from a funding standpoint. If for some reason Oakland County really likes the idea of BRT up Woodward to Birmingham or out Grand River to Novi or wherever, maybe that changes things, but that notion seems wholly implausible to me.

mw: I think he's saying something quite rational here
...you haven't shown you can operate an expensive system yet
...heck, you can't even run your two little bus systems
...but we like you guys there in Detroit and have decided anyway to give you a little system
...let's see how you take care of it

[ghettopalmetto]

mw: I think he's saying something quite rational here
...you haven't shown you can operate an expensive system yet
...heck, you can't even run your two little bus systems
...but we like you guys there in Detroit and have decided anyway to give you a little system
...let's see how you take care of it

The "little" bus system proposed is going to be more expensive than the Woodward Light Rail line.

[Danny]

DARTA is DEAD!

The Woodward Light Rail Transit is DEAD!

And so will the Bus Rapid Transit!

You all can do better than that politicians.

[Novine]

" The uniformed, uneducated, provincial mouthbreathers that make up the majority of the voting populace have repeatedly and quite loudly registered their complete rejection of mass transit inititiaves and/or regional cooperation on transit. surely you're not suggesting someone subvert that democracy and force mass transit on a population dead set against it?"

Except that the region served by SMART has voted for the millage twice, including an increase, to keep SMART running. A couple of communities have opted-out since the initial vote but overall, the voters have supported SMART even when regional leaders did not.

[Danny]

Using some of the cites that ghetto listed.

Seattle 3,439,809
Phoenix 4,192,887
Salt Lake 1,124,197
Denver 2,552,195
San Diego 3,095,313
Charlotte 1,745,524
Baltimore 2,690,886


Detroit 4,296,250

I understand why SE MI and the state as a whole is losing population.

Seattle, Salt Lake City, Denver, San Diego and Charlotte don't have ghetto like areas. They are totally yuppified and bringing young professionals in the inner city areas.


Phoenix has very small barrios, but not as dangerous as Los Angeles.

Baltimore has larger ghettoes from its downtown to municipal suburbs, but as worst as Detroit.

[Wesley Mouch]

The "little" bus system proposed is going to be more expensive than the Woodward Light Rail line.

That can only happen if badly managed, and if so will prove that LaHood and Snyder have correctly judged our abilities.

[Detroitnerd]

That can only happen if badly managed, and if so will prove that LaHood and Snyder have correctly judged our abilities.

No, you fundamentally misunderstand -- per passenger-mile bus systems have lower establishment costs, higher operation costs. Light rail has higher establishment costs, lower operation costs.

[ghettopalmetto]

No, you fundamentally misunderstand -- per passenger-mile bus systems have lower establishment costs, higher operation costs. Light rail has higher establishment costs, lower operation costs.

Unless, of course, you try to provide bus service that attempts to replicate light rail operating characteristics. Then you can get into some pretty heavy capital expenditures, and still have the higher operating costs [[SEE: Cleveland).