Time to Start Discussing Bus Rapid Transit [[BRT) Systems

[ghettopalmetto]

Is a sensible objection. Bogota, which has one of [[if not the most) sophisticated BRT systems in the world has over 6 million people. However, they have also spent a lot of money on their system, and fully integrated it with a system of regular buses. The problem here is that there isn't much to integrate the new system with, and I don't see where any kind of adequate funding would come from.

Bogota is also dirt-poor, even compared to Detroit, and has a far lower level of car ownership.

People in Bogota will tolerate crowding more than a typical American.

South American cities with BRT systems have implemented strict zoning to densify corridors along BRT lines, generating ridership. Detroit can't even adjust its zoning to allow for anything other than strip malls.

The Bogota system requires 4 lanes dedicated strictly to buses. This would be politically intolerable in Michigan, and use twice as much right-of-way as light rail = Construction $$$.

Labor costs in the United States are far higher than in Colombia. Thus, the operating cost metric of a bus system is much different.

If BRT is so cheap and fantastic, why is Los Angeles about to embark on a multi-billion dollar expansion of its subway and light rail lines, in lieu of more "Orange Line" BRT service???

[mwilbert]

At this point, I think a Bogota-style system is an unreasonable expectation.

I expect no such thing, nor would it be reasonable. The problem is, I don't expect anything. If they build any BRT at all, it is virtually certain it will be something that I wouldn't call BRT. Ghettopalmetto and I don't agree on BRT in general, but we do agree that it has higher operating costs than rail, and if we can't afford LRT up Woodward, we can't afford 4 BRT lines covering longer distances. If the reason we aren't getting LRT is operating costs, the BRT is doomed.

On a brighter note, if we get an RTA out of this, eventually something good may come of it. I kind of doubt that will happen either, but who knows.

[corktownyuppie]

I expect no such thing, nor would it be reasonable. The problem is, I don't expect anything. If they build any BRT at all, it is virtually certain it will be something that I wouldn't call BRT. Ghettopalmetto and I don't agree on BRT in general, but we do agree that it has higher operating costs than rail, and if we can't afford LRT up Woodward, we can't afford 4 BRT lines covering longer distances. If the reason we aren't getting LRT is operating costs, the BRT is doomed.

On a brighter note, if we get an RTA out of this, eventually something good may come of it. I kind of doubt that will happen either, but who knows.

I agree except on one count. We may not be able to afford LRT up Woodward operating costs. But a regional system is a game changer because it opens up funds from all 3 [[maybe 4) counties.

Will we see an RTA? It's hard to be optimistic at a time like this. But putting my emotions aside for a moment...I go back to LaHood's comments about being within inches of a deal, this being reported between 7 and 8pm. With everything on the line, I have to believe that there's more to this than we know about quite yet. Especially with the Detnews refusing to cover the story up to now.

[R8RBOB]

On a brighter note, if we get an RTA out of this, eventually something good may come of it. I kind of doubt that will happen either, but who knows.

I have to say, not likely.

Here's the thing about the light-rail. It was a Detroit project. The suburbs well Brooks had always been again mass-transit so everyone knew OC would not be on board for a LR on M-1. The hope: had M-1 been successful along Woodward and suburbanites utilized the system then they would demand that the rail cross over 8Mile.

Now that the light-rail is dead, Snyder is going all in for a bus rapid transit that we all know L. Brooks will never go for. I mean if he didn't support the light-rail project and SMART is becoming DDOT-lite how in the hell is he going to support the RTA and a creation of the BRT?

[corktownyuppie]

I have to say, not likely.

Here's the thing about the light-rail. It was a Detroit project. The suburbs well Brooks had always been again mass-transit so everyone knew OC would not be on board for a LR on M-1. The hope: had M-1 been successful along Woodward and suburbanites utilized the system then they would demand that the rail cross over 8Mile.

Now that the light-rail is dead, Snyder is going all in for a bus rapid transit that we all know L. Brooks will never go for. I mean if he didn't support the light-rail project and SMART is becoming DDOT-lite how in the hell is he going to support the RTA and a creation of the BRT?

I'm not as informed on this, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. I think the answer here is the Federal Funding. If LaHood is committing money, then that's a totally different equation, isn't it?

[Novine]

The feds are going to fund the operational costs to run a BRT system? The answer to that is no. Then where is the money coming from? L. Brooks Patterson and Oakland County taxpayers?

[mwilbert]

I'm not as informed on this, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. I think the answer here is the Federal Funding. If LaHood is committing money, then that's a totally different equation, isn't it?

Typically the Federal money cannot be used to cover operating costs. They were already throwing in lots of money for the capital costs. I don't see how switching from rail to bus really changes the situation from a funding standpoint. If for some reason Oakland County really likes the idea of BRT up Woodward to Birmingham or out Grand River to Novi or wherever, maybe that changes things, but that notion seems wholly implausible to me.

[corktownyuppie]

The feds are going to fund the operational costs to run a BRT system? The answer to that is no. Then where is the money coming from? L. Brooks Patterson and Oakland County taxpayers?

Hey I'm just relaying what I've read. I could be wrong. I hope I'm not. This is was published today at 7:30.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111...ent-deal-close

I believe Detroit and the Detroit Metro area is very close to some kind of an opportunity to form a regional transportation program," LaHood told The Detroit News after an event on a drunken-driving crackdown. "This is a real coming together."

Last week, LaHood met with Gov. Rick Snyder, Detroit Mayor Dave Bing and other state transportation officials to talk about transit issues. He praised Bing and Snyder, as well as county leaders in Metro Detroit, for working together."We pretty much signed off on their plan," LaHood said. "If this happens, we're going to put an enormous amount of money on the table for this because we believe this is the best way to deliver transit services to the people of the Detroit Metro area."

He added the amount of money the Transportation Department is willing to commit is significant — "millions of dollars," he said.

[R8RBOB]

I'm not as informed on this, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. I think the answer here is the Federal Funding. If LaHood is committing money, then that's a totally different equation, isn't it?

Think of it like this: if I was your father and you wanted to get a car then I would give you the down payment money to get the car. Once you get the car, the car note, the insurance, the maintenance, the car washes is all on you. Just because I gave you the money to get the car does not mean I am responsible to continue paying for your car.

The light-rail would have fallen under the same scenario and the BRT would too but Snyder is banking that Brooksie would be game to give some of that Oakland County green to make it work.

[R8RBOB]

Hey I'm just relaying what I've read. I could be wrong. I hope I'm not. This is was published today at 7:30.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111...ent-deal-close

I have a question. If they create this regional transit authority does the authority take control of DDOT and SMART and who will cover the debts incurred by both systems, the state or the government?

[ghettopalmetto]

Typically the Federal money cannot be used to cover operating costs. They were already throwing in lots of money for the capital costs. I don't see how switching from rail to bus really changes the situation from a funding standpoint. If for some reason Oakland County really likes the idea of BRT up Woodward to Birmingham or out Grand River to Novi or wherever, maybe that changes things, but that notion seems wholly implausible to me.

Correct. Federal New Starts money requires a dedicated local source of funding for operating costs. Retooling of the bus service wouldn't have this requirement as long as no federal capital dollars are involved.

In other words, this "high speed" bus system is not going to use anything in the way of capital expenditures, which makes me question just how "high speed" it's really going to be. In the long run, the region is going to be shelling out a lot more money in operating costs for buses than for rail. It's a penny-wise, pound foolish decision by the local "leaders".

[corktownyuppie]

Think of it like this: if I was your father and you wanted to get a car then I would give you the down payment money to get the car. Once you get the car, the car note, the insurance, the maintenance, the car washes is all on you. Just because I gave you the money to get the car does not mean I am responsible to continue paying for your car.

The light-rail would have fallen under the same scenario and the BRT would too but Snyder is banking that Brooksie would be game to give some of that Oakland County green to make it work.

Got it...hadn't noticed that detail when I read the article. [[By the way, in your example, I think the car note is concerned debt service, which isn't quite the same as an operating cost as it its finite and ends when the capital investment is complete. But your point is taken).

I think you're right. Snyder is gambling that Brooks will go for an RTA under this scenario, and now I think the political pressure for him to do so is gonna be through the charts. Anyone under 45 years old is livid about how this all went down, even my republican friends. It'll be interesting.

[mwilbert]

Bogota is also dirt-poor, even compared to Detroit, and has a far lower level of car ownership.

People in Bogota will tolerate crowding more than a typical American.

South American cities with BRT systems have implemented strict zoning to densify corridors along BRT lines, generating ridership. Detroit can't even adjust its zoning to allow for anything other than strip malls.

The Bogota system requires 4 lanes dedicated strictly to buses. This would be politically intolerable in Michigan, and use twice as much right-of-way as light rail = Construction $$$.

Labor costs in the United States are far higher than in Colombia. Thus, the operating cost metric of a bus system is much different.

If BRT is so cheap and fantastic, why is Los Angeles about to embark on a multi-billion dollar expansion of its subway and light rail lines, in lieu of more "Orange Line" BRT service???

None of this has anything to do with my point. I wasn't trying to suggest anything other that that it isn't actually ridiculous to think that BRT is suitable for a metro of 4 million people.

Apparently there is no form of mass transit suitable for metro Detroit, because too few of the people who want it can afford to pay for it, and the people of the region aren't willing to subsidize it adequately. I'm sure lots of people think that is a good thing. I think it is just another of the numerous ways in which the people of the region are unable to work together to create a functional metropolitan area, but there seems to be a lot of disagreement on that point.

[ghettopalmetto]

I agree with you completely, mwilbert. I have every reason to believe this "high speed" bus idea is a sham--nothing more than a weak attempt at damage control.

It's extremely upsetting to me how people in what was once one of the world's great metropolises could be so naive, parochial, and regressive. You would think Detroit was in Mississippi. Well, this is what happens when Detroit leaders don't want to give up "the power" of running DDOT....

[Dexlin]

It's absolutely silly to place most of the blame on Detroit proper for this failure. And, all of this BS about metro Detroit not being able to fund this is ridiculous. Despite the massive lost of wealth over the last ten years, Metro Detroit still ranks as the 13th largest economy in the nation by GMP [[gross metropolitan product). Far less wealthy and just as dispersed and sprawled metros in this country have rapid transit. The idea that Metro Detroit is "too poor" or "not dense enough" is bogus on its face when talking about rapid transit. Even, poor, "little", depopulated Detroit proper is more dense than any other city in its city ranking population group [[11 to 20) besides San Francisco [[nation's 13th largest city proper).

Metro Detroit couldn't come up with the operation costs for this because they didn't want to, not because they couldn't. Metro Detroit spends the least amount of its wealth on transit...and it finally showed in the worst way. Detroit proper don't have the operation money all by itself [[and shouldn't expected to be), and the suburbs don't wont a regional sales tax because ANY taxes are anathema to Republicans.

[Zacha341]

Agreed in part. The current bus systems need to be revamped to survive. People who are able to drive are not all going to ride buses unless gas prices really get high and they are traveling/ commuting very far. Otherwise, driving is a privileged to be retained as long as possible for many. However, for those not driving or unable to drive we need the mass transport option revised quickly.

You want a discussion. Let's discuss....
BRT is dead on arrival because suburbanites and Detroiters like me will not choose to park their cars to ride Snyder's high-speed buses. Why is DDOT and SMART dying? Because citizens will not choose to park their cars to ride buses. Not going to happen.

[R8RBOB]

So LRT is dead and the trio of Bing, Snyder and LaHood is going to pitch for a BRT. Well, I suppose we have to make sugar water into Kood-Aid so here is what I would propose.

Create a regional transit authority with a budget to assume control of DDOT and SMART. [[Not taking DDOT and SMART would be a show-shopper. Having a newly created RTA with two failed bus system on the outside would a disaster.)

Turing the SMART bus system into the BRT and expanding DDOT service to the region. Metro Detroit does not need a DDOT, a SMART and a BRT. The RTA could provide service to the metro area using the DDOT buses and SMART buses. The newly created BRT would use new buses to run its routes.

Of course this will not happen because the state would have to do what someone like me has been saying for weeks in reference to Detroit. They would have to absorb DDOT's debt or bail them out. Good luck on waiting for the GOP vote to do that. They would crazy enough to vote for a RTA and tell the public that region can have a RTA and a separate DDOT and a separate SMART just so they won't have to bail them out setting them up for failure. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next year.

[cramerro]

So, light rail was killed on the pretense that it would be too expensive. This raises two critical questions:
1. What is going to be done to make these new buses "high speed"?
2. If the City of Detroit cannot afford to operate a light rail line, how will it afford operation of three "high speed" bus lines, when long-term transit data from across the nation shows that rail is cheaper to operate than buses?

The feds are going to fund the operational costs to run a BRT system? The answer to that is no. Then where is the money coming from? L. Brooks Patterson and Oakland County taxpayers?

There is a key item here to note: Detroit couldn’t even pretend that it would have the money to operate the system, and most of Brooks’ outward criticism is pointed at the legacy costs of DDOT. To him, taking over, paying for, or providing any funding to DDOT is futile because of the atmospheric levels of long-term debt that are not his doing or responsibility. This was only further exacerbated when you look at this $500M light rail that was all going to DDOT, with very little benefit to anyone outside Detroit, save the people who take SMART down Woodward that now would transfer to a [[hopefully) quicker rail car for the last 4-8 miles of their trip to the New Center, Midtown, or Downtown. The FTA, despite LaHood and Obama Detroit lovefest, still could not look themselves in the mirror and say, “this LRT system will succeed.” This new system won’t be so much as touched by DDOT or the city.

With a system that spreads the benefits of that same $500 across the three highest volume corridors [[and M-59 – yuck), you have a case for a much higher benefit potential. Yes, the Woodward corridor will get less benefit, but now you’re linking a bunch of ‘sustainable’ urban centers that could all use a boost and cumulatively could have a great benefit. Pontiac will have two lines, add Utica, Mt Clemens, Roseville, Eastpointe, the woodward communities [[Bloomfield Hills may enclose the BRT lane in a tunnel), and then Dearborn, Inkster, Westland, Wayne. That gives a lot more reasons for politicians in the three counties to support coming up with a way to fund the system, and/or an RTA. And don't tell anyone [[except the Feds and our Detroit legislators), but Detroit will benefit immensely as well along three of thier highest volume routes - freeing up resources to improve service elsewhere and feed into the BRT spines. This gives everyone a piece of the pie.

SMART and DDOT can exist under the umbrella of the RTA, and a BRT system as well, becuase the RTA can manage the funding for all and prioritize across all systems, including more forced coordination of routes. If the time/opportunity comes in the future where the systems can be realigned, dissolved, whatever, then fine. The only flaw in this plan is that DDOT relies on heavy [[shrinking) City subsidy... if that goes away then the whole idea of DDOT within an RTA seems a bit backwards.

IMO, this system has a far greater potential to contribute to building a successful regional transit system than the light rail. I was upset last night, but after reading all the posts and thinking it through, it almost seems like Snyder knew what he was talking about with his BRT plan. And this shift of Federal money right into that wheelhouse will get the system off the ground and limit the funding problem to operating instead of funding to build the whole thing from the ground-up. On top of that, it actually follows the RTCC plan that the big four signed on to not so long ago, so it even follows a thought-out plan for regional transit. I’m on-board.

[cramerro]

Agreed in part. The current bus systems need to be revamped to survive. People who are able to drive are not all going to ride buses unless gas prices really get high and they are traveling/ commuting very far. Otherwise, driving is a privileged to be retained as long as possible for many. However, for those not driving or unable to drive we need the mass transport option revised quickly.

I understand that driving is part of our Detroit DNA, but this is not totally true all the time. SMART's peak hour express services, including the three 800- park-and-rides, are very well utilized [[full or mostly full buses) mostly by working suburbanites who park in the burbs' and take the bus downtown to save on parking, gas, and vehicle costs. The BRT would make at least the non-800-routes much quicker along Michigan, Woodward, and Gratiot, adding more benefit. 10,000's riders every day? Maybe not at first, but it also isn't out of the questions especially given the increasing number of employees downtown.

[iheartthed]

So, light rail was killed on the pretense that it would be too expensive. This raises two critical questions:

1. What is going to be done to make these new buses "high speed"?

2. If the City of Detroit cannot afford to operate a light rail line, how will it afford operation of three "high speed" bus lines, when long-term transit data from across the nation shows that rail is cheaper to operate than buses?

What they haven't said publicly yet, but is pretty clear if you know how Metro Detroit operates... is that the Feds said they won't fund it without an RTA in place [[this was announced several months ago, I believe) but they couldn't get the leadership of a certain county at the northern end of Woodward to commit to a RTA. Macomb is receptive to an RTA, but Woodward does not run through Macomb County so they would not benefit at all from a light rail line along that corridor. The compromise? Start a "regional" system centered on Detroit and Macomb's CBD [[which is M-59 lol) using "high-speed" buses, whatever the hell that means.

[Chicago48]

If you have a declining population city why would you have any type of mass transit other than bus? Unless someone feels that light rail down Woodward would help commerce in the corridor. I don't think so. The city is so broke and so dead [[ except downtown) it wouldn't make a difference.

[louis]

it wouldn't be a bad idea to build up and modernize our bus system [[especially when its not on the cities dime) and then look into rail seeing how that's how every other city has done it. if Snyder has a brain he will keep the woodward rail plan to the side and start saving money now so we don't have to start allover when time comes for it

[iheartthed]

If you have a declining population city why would you have any type of mass transit other than bus? Unless someone feels that light rail down Woodward would help commerce in the corridor. I don't think so. The city is so broke and so dead [[ except downtown) it wouldn't make a difference.

This is a really stupid question for someone from Chicago to ask.

[Dexlin]

This is a really stupid question for someone from Chicago to ask.

I'm glad someone said it, though, I'd say that it's a stupid question for anyone to ask. It's like asking "why should we even attempt to stop the bleeding?" t's a ridiculous question on its face. I'll say it, again, even though it's already known, there are smaller, less populated, less dense cities with light rail. People seem to be in total shock for whatever that Detroit still has the population density and regional spread with nodes of the metro population to support rail transit. It's not a matter of whether he have the components. This is purely a question of will, and our so-called leaders don't have the will to invest in transit. It's as simple as that.

[ghettopalmetto]

it wouldn't be a bad idea to build up and modernize our bus system [[especially when its not on the cities dime) and then look into rail seeing how that's how every other city has done it. if Snyder has a brain he will keep the woodward rail plan to the side and start saving money now so we don't have to start allover when time comes for it

Unfortunately, this is NOT how every other city has done it. Every other city in the United States has built rail from the get-go, foregoing so-called "BRT". Here are a few:

Seattle
Phoenix
Salt Lake
Denver
Los Angeles
San Diego
Dallas
Houston
Austin
St. Louis
Minneapolis
Atlanta
Charlotte
Norfolk
Baltimore
Washington

All of these cities have constructed rail transit lines since the 1970s. None of them operated "rapid" buses along the current rail routes before the rail was constructed. In fact, NO city in the United States has operated bus "rapid" transit as a precursor to a rail line. So please stop lying.

What Detroit will get--IF an agreement can be made to form a regional transit authority--is MDOT will come along and paint "Bus Only" in two traffic lanes along four roads, and the federal government will purchase new low-floor buses. Will it be better than the existing bus service? Probably. Will it be "rapid" and on-par with light-rail? Not even close.

Don't expect a whole lot more.