Feds, Snyder kill Woodward Light Rail Line

[1953]

I am devastated by this development

but we must fight on for light rail on woodward

[DJ Tom T]

We will eventually look back on this as opportunity squandered.

The cost of building infrastructure continues to rise prohibitively - Detroit won't ever have an opportunity like this again.

There is a lot of money and jobs tied to building a rail line. Not to mention the economic development that comes around the stations. Construction jobs at first, then retail jobs. Plenty of opportunities for entrepreneurs along the route as well. Look at Washington DC or NYC's subway systems as examples.

Most cities that have great public transit use a mix of trains and buses. Toronto & Montreal come to mind immediately. Trains run along a few major arteries while the bus system feeds the trains and services the local neighborhoods. Just using buses or just using trains won't get it done. This isn't rocket science.

A BRT system still requires dedicated lanes - no idea how this is going to work on Woodward, particularly through the I-94/Highland Park corridor.

On top of that, the economic development around bus stations is significantly less than around train stations [[my opinion based on systems i've seen).

Every successful transit system in the world is HEAVILY subsidized - no system funds itself - so funding will always be a political issue unfortunately.

Rail along Woodward with bus routes along the mile roads - not too hard to figure out right?

Too bad - this could have been something.

[1953]

Why is the leadership in this city so poor?

[Matt The Deuce]

I'm extremely disappointed like most of you, but maybe this scenario will eventually play out -

Paves way for regional athourity -

It's been proven that merging SMART & DDOT is not ever going to happen. Snyder alluded to this recently when he floated the idea of a THIRD authority be created. Basically starting over. DDOT & Smart will be dissolved or folded into the new authority. A light rail line up woodward was not a comprehensive enough plan to drive to the finish line ie. a regional authority. A RBT that covers the entire region may be the thing that finally brings all the players together.

Have to crawl before you can walk -

Maybe we do need to have the regional authority and an efficient bus system in place FIRST before we can add the trains. Seems to make sense. Almost all major city transit systems have both trains and busus. Buses no doubt will serve the entire region in a more efficient manor.

Still might get rail -

I'm betting that Gilbert and the boys are plotting a way to build the rail in spite of the recent developments. Not sure they can find the funding, but eventually we need both options to have a comprehensive system.

[Dexlin]

We will eventually look back on this as opportunity squandered.

...

Rail along Woodward with bus routes along the mile roads - not too hard to figure out right?

Too bad - this could have been something.

Eventually? After they get through "speechifying", today, the near unanimous conclusion will be that it's crazy to drag this project along as far as they did, only to shelve it upon the eve of putting shovels in the ground.

You're right about the mix. It's exactly what the plan has always been for Metro Detroit...until Snyder decided that the city doesn't even deserve a single light rail line. The regional transit planned called for a single light rail line [[Woodward), BRT up some of the major spokes, and improved bus service [[ART) on the east-west routes through the metro. How they, on a whim, decided to totally change a plan into which millions of dollars was put into to develop is beyond me. There should be on LRT on Woodward, at least. I had no idea that Snyder was now [[though he probably soon will be) mayor of Detroit to make such local decisions for the region. Hell, the state isn't paying for this, so he should butt out unless he's coming with some money. Not only is he not bringing money with this new-fangled fancy-bus plan of his, but he can't even promise the creation of a regional transit authority out of the legislature. Don't know if anyone has noticed, but he doesn't have too many friends, there; he doesn't call the shots. Initial reports show both Richardville and Bolger not really promising anything, and after the bridge fiasco, they realize they don't have to listen to him. Snyder's not running this show, but everyone keeps pretending like the emperor has clothes on. Why is anyone listening to a guy with very little power to actually do anything? What in the world did he promise Bing?

[brizee]

Thought a night to sleep on this would ease my worries a little.

Nope.

I just feel played with. All this time talking up this project to friends and family, getting my optimism up.

This is like sexual dysfunction for the soul.

These last few weeks have just been incredible. We won't pay for infrastructure. We won't pay to help people go to school. Where is this state going? What is the bottom?


Bing, Snyder, council, Patterson, legislature. I don't care. Everyone needs to burn for this.

[Novine]

"Maybe we do need to have the regional authority and an efficient bus system in place FIRST before we can add the trains. Seems to make sense. Almost all major city transit systems have both trains and busus. Buses no doubt will serve the entire region in a more efficient manor. "

What regional authority? We'll have light rail before we have a regional authority and we're not going to have a regional authority.

[DetroitScooter]

You sir, are my new hero. This expresses very well the rage that I'm feeling right now. Thanks.

Fucking Neanderthals. Everyone in a position of power in this fucking city, region and state, they're all fucking Neanderthals. I don't know where we find these drooling, knuckle-dragging idiots, or who decides that they need to be in a position of power [[I sure as shit don't vote for them), but somehow they never fucking go away, and when they do, their replacements are just as bad. Transit ain't hard, folks. Everybody else figured it out a long time ago. But Detroit? No, we can't, because we're governed by fucking Neanderthals. I need a fucking drink.

[Matt The Deuce]

"What regional authority? We'll have light rail before we have a regional authority and we're not going to have a regional authority."

I think this whole move is a play to get a regional authority and a mechanism for funding for ongoing operations.

The news article pretty much states this - as the motivation behind it.

I personally thought we could have done both. Don't have to scrap the LRT to do this, but when the cupboard is bare [[or the priorities are not right) this "shift" is what we get.

[DetroitScooter]

First impression: Net-Net this is going to increase congestion and pollution, and probably get my scooter-riding ass killed by a crazy bus "pilot". Reassess.

Second impression... creative writing: On the failure of Detroit light rail - Hunter S. Thompson [[paraphrased): "So now, less than five years later, you can look south, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back."


Third impression: Damn it. All the hope, all the planning, all the investment... What a senseless waste of time and money -- for yet another goddamn bus line? I'd hike over a mile to Woodward to catch a clean, on-time train that could get me downtown in 30 minutes. I wouldn't walk to the end of the block to wait for a dirty, smelly, broken-down bus for the hour+ commute, SMART or DDOT. Fail.

[corktownyuppie]

"What regional authority? We'll have light rail before we have a regional authority and we're not going to have a regional authority."

I think this whole move is a play to get a regional authority and a mechanism for funding for ongoing operations.

The news article pretty much states this - as the motivation behind it.

I personally thought we could have done both. Don't have to scrap the LRT to do this, but when the cupboard is bare [[or the priorities are not right) this "shift" is what we get.

Most of the issues with getting an RTA is on Patterson. We all know this. But we also know that in the past, Detroit leadership has been just as absurd, demanding contracts, power disproportionate to their contribution, etc. I actually think that with a state appointed EM + Bing + Snyder, they really are gonna make a play to get an RTA set up, and losing light rail was the sacrificial lamb.

I think they just might get it. And I think they're hoping that investors on the light rail plan can go back to their original plan. Like I said, I'm royally pissed, too. I just think there's something more going on here.

[iheartthed]

losing light rail was the sacrificial lamb.

Not just the lamb. They sacrificed the herd! You do realize that just about every development project in Detroit going on now is centered on that light rail line. What happens now???

[Dexlin]

Matt,

But, really, that's the thing. We keep hearing the "we can't afford it" refering to the light rail, but then Snyder goes and proposes something that will cost more to operate than the single light rail line down Woodward. How does that excuse even beging to make any sense for this blatant, transparent bait-and-switch he's pulled on Southeast Michigan?

Let's get this point straight whenever we hear someone say this: First, it's going to cost more to operate three BRT lines, than it will cost to operate a single light rail line. Hell, it generally costs more, long-term, to operate a single BRT line than it would a single light rail line. If it's the operating costs that's hurting this, the obvious answer is light rail. Since they didn't say the capital costs are the obstacle [[that was actually going along quite well), then their stated reason for switching to BRT simply makes zero sense.

Secondly, how can a metropolitan area and economy the size of metro Detroit not afford to fund a light rail line, and but smaller metropolitan economies can?

The "we can't afford this" is totally bogus no matter which way you try to spend it. This isn't about the lack of means by any stretch of the imagination unless you're going to ask the city of Detroit to shoulder the entire operating costs of any plan. The problem is about the lack of will.

The arguments about costs are bogus right on their face. Between the capital costs slowly but surely coming together, and it being cheaper to operate LRT than BRT, what the failure comes down to is one thing: Lack of regional cooperation. Oakland doesn't want to contribute any funding to a regional authority. Patterson's lieutenants have made that abundantly clear. One of them was asked a month or two back at a transit conference if they'd consider supporting a regional or even state tax [[something like a penny increase) and in many more words they made it known that they wouldn't. That shows a kind of astounding narrowness, when you won't even consider a broad tax. No one was asking for a special, targeted Oakland County tax. Folks have literally simply been asking for a regional or state tax, maybe a sales tax increase of a penny or a raise on the hotel tax, and Oakland won't even so much as consider that. And, without Oakland, there is no regional transit authority.

[adamjab19]

I'm bummed about the loss of light rail but a high speed system will do just as well. I won't feel as cool as I would in a train going down woodward but hey if I can make it downtown in a bus in 30 minutes with limited stops I will just as pleased.

[corktownyuppie]

Not just the lamb. They sacrificed the herd! You do realize that just about every development project in Detroit going on now is centered on that light rail line. What happens now???

<sigh> I don't know. We wait.

A buddy of mine has a father that has worked in state politics for a state agency. Under Snyder, Granholm. Prior to that he worked for Patterson and Engler. We were chatting a couple of months ago about how Michigan can really re-build.

He and his father shared the same position. You essentially need this generation of leadership to get old and leave politics. They're still stuck in their 1950-1980 ways of thinking. Many are just now starting to use the internet. Many have never seen all their friends leaving for walkable cities. They're just ignorant to it. Some of them are just now getting on the internet and really using it for the first time. The baby boomers are the fastest growing demographic on Facebook right now.

That's scary for a few reasons:

- They have no idea how pissed off everyone is about this right now because they're not onlin.
- They're *just now* coming on to social media? Like 8 years later??

I am overgeneralizing of course. But there is some truth to this. These guys just don't have any understanding of what it's like for 9 out of your 10 friends to leave the state after college.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm bummed about the loss of light rail but a high speed system will do just as well. I won't feel as cool as I would in a train going down woodward but hey if I can make it downtown in a bus in 30 minutes with limited stops I will just as pleased.

If "high speed" buses worked just as well as light rail, don't you think we'd see a lot more--hell, ANY--"high speed" bus systems elsewhere in the US?

Don't be fooled. There will be bus lanes and new lipstick-on-a-pig buses. That is all. Don't be surprised if your trip downtown takes just as long as it does now on DDOT.

[Novine]

"I think this whole move is a play to get a regional authority and a mechanism for funding for ongoing operations."

"I actually think that with a state appointed EM + Bing + Snyder, they really are gonna make a play to get an RTA set up, and losing light rail was the sacrificial lamb."

Guys, I love your optimism but do you live in SE Michigan? What's Snyder and LaHood going to dangle in front of Patterson to get him to sign onto a RTA and the funding that needs to go with it to make it operate? The only thing I can think of is that he'll trade funding for widening I-75 through Oakland County to add more freeway lanes in exchange for some funding mechanism for the RTA. Nevermind, he wouldn't even do that.

[mwilbert]

Not just the lamb. They sacrificed the herd! You do realize that just about every development project in Detroit going on now is centered on that light rail line. What happens now???

This is the key point that I think hasn't been adequately discussed. Bus service on Woodward is the least of this area's transit problems. The main benefit of a Woodward LRT was always going to be the redevelopment of the Woodward corridor. Now what? This can't do anything but increase the perception that it is impossible to get anything significant done in Detroit.

[Scottathew]

I'm disappointed to say the least.

However, there may be some merit to the decision. Here are some positive benefits of BRT:

- Greatly reduces start-up costs
- Quick roll-out of a full route
- Quick roll-out of multiple routes

What I don't like is the creation of yet a THIRD entity that will be operating public buses in the area. I want to see SMART and DDOT immediately absorbed into the new entity.

I'm happy this would create a regional entity, but we need to make sure that SMART and DDOT go away.

[mwilbert]

If "high speed" buses worked just as well as light rail, don't you think we'd see a lot more--hell, ANY--"high speed" bus systems elsewhere in the US?

This is a questionable argument. If high-speed rail were actually superior to air for distances of under 200-300 miles, don't you think we'd see a high-speed rail system somewhere in the US?

Lots of stuff happens or doesn't happen without a good reason.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is the key point that I think hasn't been adequately discussed. Bus service on Woodward is the least of this area's transit problems. The main benefit of a Woodward LRT was always going to be the redevelopment of the Woodward corridor. Now what? This can't do anything but increase the perception that it is impossible to get anything significant done in Detroit.

...and a lack of regional cooperation and a lack of infrastructure investment are anathema to businesses looking to grow and employ people.

[313WX]

...and a lack of regional cooperation and a lack of infrastructure investment are anathema to businesses looking to grow and employ people.

Nope, according to our far right legislatures and the people they represent, all you need to bring jobs to Michigan is LOWURZ TAXIZ!!!

Never mind that the states with the largest and most vibrant economies [[unless you count minumum wage Texas) have state of the art infrastructure and high taxes.

[canuck]

Snyder should force a new Metropolitan merger on metro Detroit and a metro transit authority.
Both would have cities bicker, go at it for their own interests, but at least the fighting would be out in the open where folks could see it. Right now, there is all this backroom stuff that kills any initiative. That is where I think the political process is lacking, there is no need for discussion of county leaders and mayors, and therefore no transparency.

Who is L Brooks Patterson to decide what the region needs? Why do people feel helpless about the promise of novel approaches to transit, development, and curbing sprawl? The answer I think is that politicians dont feel responsible. On the one hand 3 county managers will dismiss Detroit's central problems and keep disengaging from the vital debate about the region''s survival or prosperity; on the other, a mayor stuck with a festering problem seemingly insurmountable. What is the governor's role in helping half of Michigan's population get a proper management authority? That is the question.

[Novine]

"This is a questionable argument. If high-speed rail were actually superior to air for distances of under 200-300 miles, don't you think we'd see a high-speed rail system somewhere in the US?"

What do you call the Acela trains on the NE Corridor? I know it's not 200+ high-speed rail but it's faster than anything else in the US. It's also the preferred mode of transportation in the corridor.

[313WX]

corktownyuppie, there was a national survey done of the top things business owners care about, and taxes were near the bottom.

People don't mind paying higher taxes if they feel they're getting their money's worth [[see NE and west coast). Demand is what's most important to a business owner. If the demand is there, they'll fight tooth and nail to make that money no matter what. Even recently, tehre was a thread on here about the auto companies and suppliers hiring 150,000 workers due to INCREASED DEMAND ONLY.

Problem is, I have yet to see objective data that tax cuts directly leads to job creation. Thus, we have our problem with the lack of demand.