What will it take for people to believe? Lansing Take Over of Detroit.

[313WX]

Who anyone outside of Michigan even give a fuck about the suburbs of Detroit if Detroit just fell off the map today?

[R8RBOB]

Who anyone outside of Michigan even give a fuck about the suburbs of Detroit if Detroit just fell off the map today?

I don't think someone in Fremont, CA would not give two shits about the suburbs of Metro Detroit just like someone in Troy, MI would not give two shits about the suburbs in Alameda County, CA. It will always be about the major cities and if Detroit was fall into a sinkhole and disappeared forever then one by one the suburban communities would fall to the wayside.

[313WX]

I don't think someone in Fremont, CA would not give two shits about the suburbs of Metro Detroit just like someone in Troy, MI would not give two shits about the suburbs in Alameda County, CA. It will always be about the major cities and if Detroit was fall into a sinkhole and disappeared forever then one by one the suburban communities would fall to the wayside.

Exactly, which we why I feel we HIGHLY overrate our suburbs around here.

Just like when people are trying to encourage folks to move here. They always say we have the best subrubs around, but so does every other city. What's unique about them that you can't find anywhere else?

It's what's in the city center that counts. Without that things are pretty bland socially and culturally.

[corktownyuppie]

Who anyone outside of Michigan even give a fuck about the suburbs of Detroit if Detroit just fell off the map today?

They wouldn't. Which is why some regional management of services will inevitably be necessary, in my opinion.

[corktownyuppie]

This is the money quote. That Detroiters like myself need suburbanites more than they need me. You know that it should be we all need each other for survival but it is funny how things became so one-sided. I remember growing up in this region and had to watch and read how suburban leaders would rejoiced with glee how safe and clean their cities are and how bad Detroit has become. A prime example of this was two years ago when the Crypt Keeper in Warren was trying to get GM to move their world headquarters to the Tech Center. He used no taxes and "a safe city" to entice the move.

You know if Detroit's suburbs didn't spend so many years picking at the meat maybe Detroit wouldn't be a bag of bones.

They are one-sided when it comes to money. You know the 200,000 people who left the city in the last 10 years? It doesn't matter if they voted for Archer, Kwame, KCJ, or Bing. They're voting for a mayor in the suburbs now.

Saying that "the suburbs shouldn't have done x, y, z,...or that the suburbs should've done x, y, z" becomes even less meaningful when you consider that those same suburbs are being financially and politically supported by people we called Detroiters 10 and 20 years ago.

When I say we need suburbanites more than they need us, this isn't the racial politics of 1968 or of CAY vs. the suburbs of the 80s. This is that we made way too many financial promises that we can't pay for. And the people who paid for them left the island. We need them to come back in order to pay those promises back.

It would be an interesting exercise to imagine if all these legacy costs such as pensions and "Other Post-Employment Benefits" would have some how incented people to stay in the City Limits. i.e. You want your pension and health care? Stay in the city limits or it gets docked by 10%.

Just imagine what would happen to our economy if every senior citizen turned 62, signed up for social security, and then immediately moved to Canada for free health care. Pulling all that annual income, property tax base, commerce, out of the country would totally ruin us. Well, that's pretty much what's happened in Detroit. We pay out millions of dollars in pensions to people who now live in the suburbs, support suburban policies, etc.

So before we start picking battles with the suburbs, let's remember that "they" are "us"

[313WX]

would be an interesting exercise to imagine if all these legacy costs such as pensions and "Other Post-Employment Benefits" would have some how incented people to stay in the City Limits. i.e. You want your pension and health care? Stay in the city limits or it gets docked by 10%.

Just imagine what would happen to our economy if every senior citizen turned 62, signed up for social security, and then immediately moved to Canada for free health care. Pulling all that annual income, property tax base, commerce, out of the country would totally ruin us. Well, that's pretty much what's happened in Detroit. We pay out millions of dollars in pensions to people who now live in the suburbs, support suburban policies, etc.

I agree with this much of your post.

But keep in mind too, the same state that you're cheering on to come in and take things over is the same state who allowed what you're referencing with regards to the legacy costs and living in the city to happen with the lifting of the residency requirement [[same legislative and executive body too in fact).

That's why if someone MUST come in, they should have absolutely no ties in Detroit's fate [[which means no Michiganders) and I also think the citizens of the municipality should have to right to vote for one or not.

Otherwise, that's what bankruptcy is for. And I do want bankruptcy to happen the more I think about. It will give those who thought ignoring Detroit for the past few decades got them somewhere a rude awakening.

[R8RBOB]

I agree with this much of your post.

But keep in mind too, the same state that you're cheering on to come in and take things over is the same state who allowed what you're referencing with regards to the legacy costs and living in the city to happen with the lifting of the residency requirement [[same legislative and executive body too in fact).

That's why if someone MUST come in, they should have absolutely no ties in Detroit's fate [[which means no Michiganders) and I also think the citizens of the municipality should have to option to vote for one.

Otherwise, that's what bankruptcy is for. And I do want bankruptcy to happen the more I think about. It will give those who thought ignoring Detroit for the past few decades got them somewhere a rude awakening.

When it come to the state acting in Detroit's best interest, they have a shitty record. A number of times, Detroiters had to stand on the sidelines as the state made changes or attempt to make changes to Detroit. For years, some random Republican in the Legislature would draft some bill to take over the water dept. How about when a Republican [[can't remember the name) drafted a bill to strip Detroit of Recorder Court which was approved and signed by the governor. Ah, the residency requirement law. The greatest tragedy that was bestow by the state against the citizens of Detroit was when Republicans voted to remove the residency requirement law from the books and Engler was more than happy to sign the bill resulting in thousands of Detroiters leaving the city. [[on paper that is. They already had homes in the suburbs but they paid a full Detroit tax until the state wanted no RR law) Then the state decided that they could run DPS better than DPS so they took it over. Twelve years later, DPS is a cesspool. Now Detroit is on the cusp of a state takeover and once again the state is going to prove they can do it better. Based on its record, it doesn't look good.

[313WX]

When it come to the state acting in Detroit's best interest, they have a shitty record. A number of times, Detroiters had to stand on the sidelines as the state made changes or attempt to make changes to Detroit. For years, some random Republican in the Legislature would draft some bill to take over the water dept. How about when a Republican [[can't remember the name) drafted a bill to strip Detroit of Recorder Court which was approved and signed by the governor. Ah, the residency requirement law. The greatest tragedy that was bestow by the state against the citizens of Detroit was when Republicans voted to remove the residency requirement law from the books and Engler was more than happy to sign the bill resulting in thousands of Detroiters leaving the city. [[on paper that is. They already had homes in the suburbs but they paid a full Detroit tax until the state wanted no RR law) Then the state decided that they could run DPS better than DPS so they took it over. Twelve years later, DPS is a cesspool. Now Detroit is on the cusp of a state takeover and once again the state is going to prove they can do it better. Based on its record, it doesn't look good.

And it's not as if the state as a whole cares if Detroit's broke, because otherwise they would have done something far more worthwhile in Detroit's favor in the past 50-100 years versus encouraging people to move to 26 mile and Van Dyke. They just care now because the writing's on the wall that a Detroit bankruptcy will damage this region's financial vitality, if not the entire state's, since the region makes up over half of the state's population and economy. You can look at the wording in the EFM legislation and easily tell that it was created SPECIFICALLY for Detroit. Benton Harbor, Flint and Pontiac are/were just test pilots.

And it's not as if they're going to make the situation better either [[track record aside), because the first thing anyone who comes in is going to do is institute severe austerity measures on those who an least bare it, which will cripple the city even further.

[louis]

when the bureaucracy is so thick the state needs to appoint a dictator to get things done. that's a pretty clear sign that the city is doing something wrong and needs to get it together. if the council fails maybe the dictator wont be bad

[corktownyuppie]

I've had a few days to reflect on what you all have posted. Here's where I'm at on it.

[[1) Just because I'm in favor of the EM law doesn't mean I'm in favor of the EM. The fact of the matter is that it took the threat of the EM to get Bing, City Council, Chief of Police, and union heads all in one room together. I'm seriously at the point where maybe we should just lock them all into a room and not let them out til they have a solution.

[[2) Now I understand why everyone is all up in arms about the state coming in. The state doesn't have a good track record around here. I agree with 313WX to the extent that lack of any semblance of regional planning only gives incentive to urban sprawl. And perhaps a municipal bankruptcy would help remind them why that was a bad idea.

[[3) I'm noticing that a lot of the focus is on who is going to be in power. And I think it's a distraction, because less important than *who* will do it is *what* they will do. If JoAnn Watson and Barbara Rose Collins and Monica Conyers wanted to take over as state-appointed emergency managers, I would want to shoot myself unless they

- eliminated all unnecessary departments
- cut the fat in the management ranks
- eliminated out or planned to transition out of costly legacy costs in all union contracts
- pick a pre-determined number of financially viable neighborhoods and poured all energy into servicing those areas with A++ service while shutting off service everywhere else.
- outsource all services that can be done more efficiently at the private sector
- be willing to combine services with neighboring entities for greater efficiency
- invest capital in systems that will streamline the city
- change laws that will improve greater enforcement in tax revenue


I'm less concerned with who's in charge than what they're gonna do once they're there. And frankly, no matter who is in charge doing these things will be painful to a large number of people. But since it's going to be painful for them either way, the only thing we can do is accept that as fact and then work as hard as we can to rebuild for the future.

Like I said before...Detroit could very easily rebound as an amazing 200,000 person city, with distribution among the entire socio-economic scale, condensed into pockets [[or one pocket, better yet) of vibrant communities, people from all over the metro area, state, and country, and with a place that attracts young people, new ideas, creativity, entrepreneurlsm, highly educated, ambitious, visionaries.

But in order to get there, you need to get rid of lots of geographical territory, lots of operational inefficiency, addiction to the "old way of doing things", people with a sense of entitlement, people who are taking more from society than they are putting in, a propensity to ridicule the intelligent/educated, and low standards of behavior.

Detroit is imbalanced. We have waaayyy too much of the latter and not enough of the former.

[corktownyuppie]

I stand corrected...it looks like people really do believe.

From Flashpoint 12/11: reps from AFSCME, Bing's office, Jenkins, Spivey, and Brown.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/seenon...a/-/index.html

[313WX]

Like I said before...Detroit could very easily rebound as an amazing 200,000 person city, with distribution among the entire socio-economic scale, condensed into pockets [[or one pocket, better yet) of vibrant communities, people from all over the metro area, state, and country, and with a place that attracts young people, new ideas, creativity, entrepreneurlsm, highly educated, ambitious, visionaries.

This is a question for anyone, but is there even a such thing as a "amazing" city wih 100,000-200,000 people? They're a dime a dozen . Sure they may be funcitonal and have their charm from a big small-town perspective, but calling them "amazing" is way out of the ball park.

-Ann Arbor
-Duluth
-Grand Rapids,
-Madison
-Cedar Rapids
-Champaign-Urbana
-Norman

It's the sheer size of a city alone that makes it more amazing. Even with Miami, which is the BEST comparison I can find anywhere in the US, it's different because their region and city center is actually growing and they're pro-regionalization. And make no doubt about it, the region's population will also have to significantly adjust downward as Detroit's population does [[and that has already begun).

[corktownyuppie]

This is a question for anyone, but is there even a such thing as a "amazing" city wih 100,000-200,000 people? They're a dime a dozen . Sure they may be funcitonal and have their charm from a big small-town perspective, but calling them "amazing" is way out of the ball park.

-Ann Arbor
-Duluth
-Grand Rapids,
-Madison
-Cedar Rapids
-Champaign-Urbana
-Norman

It's the sheer size of a city alone that makes it more amazing. Even with Miami, which is the BEST comparison I can find anywhere in the US, it's different because their region and city center is actually growing and they're pro-regionalization. And make no doubt about it, the region's population will also have to significantly adjust downward as Detroit's population does [[and that has already begun).

I agree with you here.200,000 does not an "amazing city" make. Unfortunately, we don't have -- and haven't had that luxury for decades. I'll take 200,000, functional, and growing, vs. 1,000,000, shrinking, and with too much crime and not enough education.

Facebook.com is going to do their initial public stock offering for $10 Billion. In the process, many, many millionaires will be made. It's very much like when GM and Ford and Chrsyler we're really humming...they were the only games in town, and many, many millionaires were made.

But that was 50-60 years ago, and we've been milking that cow for all we could. If Detroit wants to be an amazing city again [[by the definition that you and I agree on), then first it has to shrink, clean house, and re-structure to become respectable.

Then we need to attract the kind of people who will come up with the next Facebook.

I'm pretty confident we'll see the first phase of that over the next 10-20 years. The second part might be awhile. But man, could you imagine a streamlined Detroit combined with the intellectual tour de force of 2 world class research universities within a 90 minute drive? The region could really become something again.

But, gotta clean up the mess first. My humble opinion. Would like to hear what others say makes a city amazing.

[313WX]

I agree with you here.200,000 does not an "amazing city" make. Unfortunately, we don't have -- and haven't had that luxury for decades. I'll take 200,000, functional, and growing, vs. 1,000,000, shrinking, and with too much crime and not enough education.

Facebook.com is going to do their initial public stock offering for $10 Billion. In the process, many, many millionaires will be made. It's very much like when GM and Ford and Chrsyler we're really humming...they were the only games in town, and many, many millionaires were made.

But that was 50-60 years ago, and we've been milking that cow for all we could. If Detroit wants to be an amazing city again [[by the definition that you and I agree on), then first it has to shrink, clean house, and re-structure to become respectable.

Then we need to attract the kind of people who will come up with the next Facebook.

I'm pretty confident we'll see the first phase of that over the next 10-20 years. The second part might be awhile. But man, could you imagine a streamlined Detroit combined with the intellectual tour de force of 2 world class research universities within a 90 minute drive? The region could really become something again.

But, gotta clean up the mess first. My humble opinion. Would like to hear what others say makes a city amazing.

Well first off, we must stop and consider too the rest of the country is growing at a rapid pace RIGHT NOW. That means the capital will still continue to shift to their locations. We cant support the infrastructure we have now without the capital. This is why many of our cultural institutions are already facing the possibility of closing. Second, the health of the national ecnoomy and policy will be key too. As long as the automakers can continue to shift capital to Asia, Mexico and Central America, don't expect any large scale investment in Detroit anytime soon. Detroit needs to diversify its economy off the wealth it already has [[it should have done in its prime after WWII). I have yet to see signs of that happening. Instead, people are hoping the manufacturing jobs will return.

So, in conclusion, does Detroit have time to wait another century to reinvent itself with just that to consider? I think not. We don't even know if the US as is can survive that long [[doubt it). Detroit will likely just be another big-small town in America, which is fine, but that doesn't put a place on the map or convince a person with their wealth to invest there.

I also wouldn't ride the University train either. That luxury is becoming unaffordable for middle class families, with a $1 Trillion Dollar student loan debt and rising. Michigan already doesn't fund its Universities as much as other states anyway [[and from what I understanding, a tax raise is the last thing people want in this state), so a lot of Univerisities to an extent are dependent on how easy the government loans and grants are handed out. So I don't expect the student loans and pell grants to continue going out too much longer with the fiscal crisis the federal government is facing. It's almost like a bubble in itself that's can burst any moment now.

[casscorridor]

If social movements with the potential of being revolutionary continue to grow and the ruling 1% feel threatened, then we will begin to see policies that might help Detroit. Examples here including massive infrastructure projects such as a national high-speed rail network, a large scale green energy switch-over from fossil fuels and investment in universal health care and free higher education, as well as more open immigration policies coupled with the end of the drug war that would open the borders between Mexico, the US and Canada.

The government could help Detroit rebuild by injecting resources to build public transit systems including light-rail and commuter rail, improve and expand our schools, colleges and universities and make higher education a right, provide free access to health care while expanding our hospitals and medical offices, and rework our energy infrastructure so it is renewable via solar, wind or geothermal.

Imagine if the every city in the US, from small to large, had excellent transportation, schools that foster leadership, imagination, creativity and innovation, free, unhindered access to medical care, and clean land, air and water ?

Of course, it would be great, but it still would not solve our most fundamental problems. All these things are just the bare necessities of life, that right now we are not even getting. Even if we did have these things it would not grant us access to what we are truly looking for -- a meaningful role in society, dignity or respect but most of all freedom to decide our own density.

What I am saying is we can't think just small. We have to think big first, so then we can think small better.

[Danny]

At last I seen Rome and its western half of the empire fall from the its last emperor Romulus Augustulus.

At last I seen Detroit fall from the last mayor Dave Bing.

Rome surrendered to Gallic King named Odoacer.

Detroit surendered to a Nerd Governor named Snyder.

The Kingdom of Italy was founded in A.D. 480.

The Financial Corporation of Detroit was founded in A.D. 2012.

Roman citizens were kicked out from their lands by the order of Gallic king.

Black Detroiters were kicked out from their homes by the order of the Nerd governor.

[corktownyuppie]

Black Detroiters were kicked out from their homes by the order of the Nerd governor.

I get what you're saying, and it's valid. Let's just remember that 200,000 Black Detroiters left their homes [[and then the city) voluntarily over the last 10 years. That certainly is a large part of why we're here.

Yes, I recognize that part of the reasons they left is because our political system encourages sprawl, and I agree that it's bullshit.

[antongast]

I get what you're saying, and it's valid. Let's just remember that 200,000 Black Detroiters left their homes voluntarily over the last 10 years. That certainly is a large part of why we're here.

Yes, I recognize that part of the reasons they left is because our political system encourages sprawl, and I agree that it's bullshit.

Bank of America keeps kicking out black Detroiters who would prefer to stay in their houses but can't afford the payments.

[Flintoid]

We need an EFM, plain and simple. I would welcome him/her with open arms. Finally we would be able to tackle structural issues that Bing and Council simply do not have to power to take care of.

[mwilbert]

I agree with you here.200,000 does not an "amazing city" make.

To be a major city, you need scale. However, the number of people in the core isn't the relevant factor; it is the number of people in the metro. You could have an amazing downtown with 200,000 people, providing services like entertainment and education to a wider metro area.

One big reason Detroit needs to be fixed is that without an real urban core, the metro can't attract people who want to live in a real urban core, who are disproportionately the young professional and creative types any region needs to thrive. Maybe the Detroit metro could recenter on Ann Arbor, but AA is kind of badly placed for that.

[corktownyuppie]

To be a major city, you need scale. However, the number of people in the core isn't the relevant factor; it is the number of people in the metro. You could have an amazing downtown with 200,000 people, providing services like entertainment and education to a wider metro area.

I like where your head's at here. A very vibrant 200,000 core but with the 2,000,000 metro footprint would still be a draw for outsiders. And frankly, a healthy 200,000 core is probably a bigger draw than a city with 800,000 that is being bankrupt by structural costs.

[herbpowell]

The suburbs shouldn't even be part of the discussion, yes we are Old GM. The suburbs have skimmed the cream of this region tax revenue wise and they aren't going to help us now. Detroit is stuck with the legacy costs and infrastructure of much bigger city, it is insolvent and been so for years. But as Greece is finding out once you are in this position you no longer have choices. Race baiting on this one seems like a tired union ploy, if it's not an EFM making the calls its a bond agency or a bankruptcy judge.