"Follow General Motors' lead: Live in Detroit" From this Sundays Free Press

[aoife]

Right, it's funny in a tragic sort of way how suburbanites don't see that their suburbs are more dangerous than most areas of Detroit, let alone Downtown Detroit.

I am all for supporting people's decisions to raise their families in the City, but come on- that is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Try using the sex offender tracking system sometime- as a father you might find it useful. Look up the Detroit stats- it looks like a pointillist painting.

[iheartthed]

I think you did get my point based on your response.

Unfortunately, the only thing that I got is that you had nothing useful to add to the discussion at hand.

[Det_ard]

After reading the first few comments on that article, I am kind of glad people like that don't live down here. I know it takes all kinds, but they have a lot too learn, and I think some of them are too old to learn. After reading that, I don't feel that bad that they will be stuck in their treasured destructive suburbs thanks to the mortgage crisis, when those suburbs look like the areas they hate, in a decade or so.

I love living Downtown; DetroitMom, not as much. She is almost nine months pregnant, so she is not into walking anywhere. We are both very excited about having a baby in Downtown Detroit though. We are excited on to take her on the People Mover and eventual trolley. There are a good number of other kids/exptents in our building to play with. We plan on doing light picnics in Campus Martius and bar-b-ques on Belle Isle. I can't wait until she's old enough to go on the carousel on the Riverwalk, play in the GM fountain, go on the rides at Belle Isle, and go to a Tiger Game, concert, festivals, and maybe a couple Disney on Ice shows, or maybe the Rockets. We'll be able to walk to one of the Nations Thanksgiving Day Parade, a family tradition we started last year, and take the shuttle from MGM up to the State Fair. We'll be going to one of the nations largest firework shows in the Summer.

I'm sure Royal Oak has nice things too....

I can literally run downstairs to the convenient store or diners for most groceries. I can't tell you how many times I have started making something only to realize I forgot I was out of an ingredient, or how many times DetroitMom had a strange craving in the evening, and I didn't have to even leave my building [[if it's late night, sometimes I have to walk a few blocks further).

Places are actually open late or 24 hours, something not found in our previous cities and suburbs. Deliveries are also allowed here. Many suburbs don't do deliveries after six or eight. In Downtown Detroit, there are pizza places that deliver until 2am.

I guess some people like bedroom communities like Novi or the Pointes....

Reduced commute times mean I can spend time with my family, and I know I am helping save the environment for our kids. I am also just a few blocks away from home, should some emergency happen. Day cares are also just down the block, and there are plenty of college kids looking for babysitting work. DetroitMom and I can spend a night out at nice restaurants, theater, opera, or casino, and have the peace of mind that we are only a five minute walk from home, again, if there was an emergency.

I must admit, I wasn't happy with the school age children comment at the end of that Free Press article. The real problem in Detroit is high school, if your kids can't get into Cass Tech. Elementary school can be done in charter schools, and the Boll Family YMCA now offers preschool and kindergarten classes.

I guess some people like either caring for their lawns for entertainment in Livonia, or driving a half hour away from their kids for a date night from Canton.

Pharmacies, grocery stores, work, government offices, entertainment, the hospital, physicians, retail, dentists... all right around the corner from me.

That was a pretty good explanation of why you like living in Downtown Detroit. It sounds like you've thought about the school issues. Many couples are all about Detroit living until it's time to enroll Junior in school and then they follow the well-worn path out to the affluent suburb with great schools or completely leave the state. I've encountered relatively few who still walk the talk by the time the kids are middle-school aged. Most seem to bolt before Kindergarten. Then the Detroit pep talk sounds a little disingenuous.

[2blocksaway]

DetroitDad,

Like Furious said in Boyz in the Hood "Something wrong? Yeah. It's just too bad you don't know what it is... *Brother*. "

The problem with Detroit schools isn't elementary or high schools its the parents or lack of parents.

You take half ass shots at Royal Oak, Livonia, and Canton just like everyone takes shots at Detroit. You just don't get it.

Why do you feel the need to take these shots? Does it make you feel better about yourself and where you live?

I hope you enjoy explaining to you kids what everyone is smoking on Belle Isle while you BBQ.

I hope you like being asked for money while eating at Campus Martius.

I can be downtown in less than 15 minutes and do everything you do and come back to a safe city with great schools with hospitals, drugstores, places to eat, and all that sh*t.

and please, comparing Novi to Grosse Pointe shows you don't know anything about this area.

[2blocksaway]

DetroitDad,

I would also like you to look up crime stats sometime and I think you will find that most suburbs are safer than most parts of Detroit.

Although some parts of Detroit are safer than some suburbs. Thanks to a neighborhood association fee that pays for private security in most cases.

[DetroitDad]

There are good things about the suburbs, and I wasn't comparing walkable Pointes to the Novi car paradise. I wasn't really making fun of all of them, just saying some people wouldn't like city living no matter how urban and safe it is. One man's junk is another man's treasure, to each his or her own. Unfortunately, the suburbanites are not as accepting of Detroit and other ways of life when they're kids want to chose it, which is why I am so critical of the areas they live.

I have an account with Spotcrime, and regularly check the DPD stats and map, so I know all about crime in Detroit. I stand by my comment that much of Detroit is safer than the suburbs, Downtown is doubly so. Here's why;

Right, first, they live in bubbles, choosing safety and playpens over living and teaching. Second, while their out on date night or not home from work yet, suburbanite's teenage kids are in their bedrooms having unprotected sex, or in the basement trying drugs or alcohol that one of their upstanding friends swiped from their parents liquor or medicine cabinet. Meanwhile, the little ones are chasing obesity, unsupervised on the computer or TV instead of out on the streets or parks. Of course, if they are active, they're often walking roads with no sidewalks.

Meanwhile, the real danger in America here isn't guns or crime, it's cars. Have you known someone who has been injured or worse from some sort of traffic accident? How much do you drive? What are the odds that you will be in an accident driving that much? How about your kids/new drivers, how much danger are the suburbanites putting their kids in? My kids don't have to drive everywhere at 16 [[making it a privilege to the family, not a necessity).

I won't get into all the reports about how that this nation's suburbanites are facing huge health risks from their car oriented society, or the institutions, juvenile centers, or psychiatrists on almost every main corner and freeway exit. Yeah, real good parents raise their kids in these places.

I'm just offering my view, you don't have to agree with it. I am well aware that like Detroiters, Detroit suburbanites seem to think they're communities don't need to improve, no matter how far they have come or how great they are. If your suburb or city was wiped out in a disaster, are you honestly telling me you wouldn't try to rebuild it better than before?

[Retroit]

Right, first, they live in bubbles, choosing safety and playpens over living and teaching. Second, while their out on date night or not home from work yet, suburbanite's teenage kids are in their bedrooms having unprotected sex, or in the basement trying drugs or alcohol that one of their upstanding friends swiped from their parents liquor or medicine cabinet. Meanwhile, the little ones are chasing obesity, unsupervised on the computer or TV instead of out on the streets or parks. Of course, if they are active, they're often walking roads with no sidewalks.

Very Funny! These things would never happen in Detroit!

[rjk]

Of course, if they are active, they're often walking roads with no sidewalks.

As opposed to kids in Detroit who are often walking roads with sidewalks?

Are you comparing the suburbs to the city or a cloistered convent?
You're making the city sound absolutely heavenly.

[DetroitDad]

It's no heaven, it can be a cold hard place if you let it be. The plus side is my kids will see how to we deal with it and learn. Why am I explaining myself? Just say it's not for you and move on.

[crawford]

But you also can't find anything similar to the Millender Center in any of Detroit's suburbs either. So those who desire that type of environment should move to Detroit and live it.

What? Downtown Birmingham and Royal Oak have tons of condo and rental buildings, and, unlike Millender Center, they are surrounded by vibrant neighborhoods with tons of shops, restaurants and nightlife.

Millender Center is a government-subsidized 1980's apartment-hotel complex on top of a giant parking garage. It's mostly surrounded by offices and parking. Greektown is nearby, which is nice, but that neighborhood does not have comparable offerings to Old Woodward/Maple or Main/11 Mile.

If you want an urban lifestyle in metro Detroit, the best option for most people is probably the Woodward Corridor in Oakland County. Midtown around Wayne State is a possible second option. Lafayette Park and Corktown are possibilites. I would not include the Millender Center as a premiere example of an urban community.

[crawford]

After reading the first few comments on that article, I am kind of glad people like that don't live down here. I know it takes all kinds, but they have a lot too learn, and I think some of them are too old to learn. After reading that, I don't feel that bad that they will be stuck in their treasured destructive suburbs thanks to the mortgage crisis, when those suburbs look like the areas they hate, in a decade or so.

I love living Downtown; DetroitMom, not as much. She is almost nine months pregnant, so she is not into walking anywhere. We are both very excited about having a baby in Downtown Detroit though. We are excited on to take her on the People Mover and eventual trolley. There are a good number of other kids/exptents in our building to play with. We plan on doing light picnics in Campus Martius and bar-b-ques on Belle Isle. I can't wait until she's old enough to go on the carousel on the Riverwalk, play in the GM fountain, go on the rides at Belle Isle, and go to a Tiger Game, concert, festivals, and maybe a couple Disney on Ice shows, or maybe the Rockets. We'll be able to walk to one of the Nations Thanksgiving Day Parade, a family tradition we started last year, and take the shuttle from MGM up to the State Fair. We'll be going to one of the nations largest firework shows in the Summer.

I'm sure Royal Oak has nice things too....

I can literally run downstairs to the convenient store or diners for most groceries. I can't tell you how many times I have started making something only to realize I forgot I was out of an ingredient, or how many times DetroitMom had a strange craving in the evening, and I didn't have to even leave my building [[if it's late night, sometimes I have to walk a few blocks further).

Places are actually open late or 24 hours, something not found in our previous cities and suburbs. Deliveries are also allowed here. Many suburbs don't do deliveries after six or eight. In Downtown Detroit, there are pizza places that deliver until 2am.

I guess some people like bedroom communities like Novi or the Pointes....

Reduced commute times mean I can spend time with my family, and I know I am helping save the environment for our kids. I am also just a few blocks away from home, should some emergency happen. Day cares are also just down the block, and there are plenty of college kids looking for babysitting work. DetroitMom and I can spend a night out at nice restaurants, theater, opera, or casino, and have the peace of mind that we are only a five minute walk from home, again, if there was an emergency.

I must admit, I wasn't happy with the school age children comment at the end of that Free Press article. The real problem in Detroit is high school, if your kids can't get into Cass Tech. Elementary school can be done in charter schools, and the Boll Family YMCA now offers preschool and kindergarten classes.

I guess some people like either caring for their lawns for entertainment in Livonia, or driving a half hour away from their kids for a date night from Canton.

Pharmacies, grocery stores, work, government offices, entertainment, the hospital, physicians, retail, dentists... all right around the corner from me.

This entire post is from bizzaroworld or something. Basically every comment is wrong.

It's downtown that's dead, and Novi that's busy. The Lodge Freeway actually empties out when you travel from the suburbs into Detroit. Once you pass Southfield, the traffic volume drops considerably.

Go to Twelve Oaks and vicinity at 3 PM on a typical Sunday. Then go to Campus Martius at 3 PM on a typical Sunday. Downtown is dead outside of business hours unless there's a Tigers, Lions or Red Wings game, and then it's busy only immedately before or after.

And you're extolling the virtues of services downtown? And claiming that pizza can't be delivered after 6 PM in the suburbs? I have no idea what you're talking about.

There are no groceries downtown. Not one. Suburbs have huge 24-hour groceries all over the place.

There are no large stores whatsoever downtown. No 24-hour pharmacies. Not even late-night pharmacies.

For clothing, barely a handful of places to buy clothes or accessories. The crappiest suburban mall has far more options. Not one sizable retail space downtown.

There isn't a single Indian or Middle Eastern restaurant. Not one sit-down Chinese. No Korean, Latin American, French, Spanish, African. Very limited Thai and Japanese. No serious Mexican [[though Mexicantown is driving distance). The only very-late night dining options downtown are hot dogs.

As for the events downtown, they're great, but you don't have to live next to it to enjoy it. I enjoy going to Cedar Point and Mackinac Island, but I don't have a worse experience because I can't walk there.

[2blocksaway]

If you have kids why wouldn't you choose safety?

Do you want your kids to live in danger and teach them that it is normal and that they will just have to live with it?

[DetroitDad]

This poster knows absolutely nothing about Downtown Detroit, enough said. This is what I mean, why can't you just chuck it off as your opinion is that Royal Oak and Novi is great for some people, and maybe Downtown Detroit is great for some people too.

This entire post is from bizzaroworld or something...

It's downtown that's dead, and Novi that's busy. The Lodge Freeway actually empties out when you travel from the suburbs into Detroit. Once you pass Southfield, the traffic volume drops considerably.

Go to Twelve Oaks and vicinity at 3 PM on a typical Sunday. Then go to Campus Martius at 3 PM on a typical Sunday. Downtown is dead outside of business hours unless there's a Tigers, Lions or Red Wings game, and then it's busy only immedately before or after.

And you're extolling the virtues of services downtown? And claiming that pizza can't be delivered after 6 PM in the suburbs? I have no idea what you're talking about.

There are no groceries downtown. Not one. Suburbs have huge 24-hour groceries all over the place.

There are no large stores whatsoever downtown. No 24-hour pharmacies. Not even late-night pharmacies.

For clothing, barely a handful of places to buy clothes or accessories. The crappiest suburban mall has far more options. Not one sizable retail space downtown.

There isn't a single Indian or Middle Eastern restaurant. Not one sit-down Chinese. No Korean, Latin American, French, Spanish, African. Very limited Thai and Japanese. No serious Mexican [[though Mexicantown is driving distance). The only very-late night dining options downtown are hot dogs.

As for the events downtown, they're great, but you don't have to live next to it to enjoy it. I enjoy going to Cedar Point and Mackinac Island, but I don't have a worse experience because I can't walk there.

[iheartthed]

What? Downtown Birmingham and Royal Oak have tons of condo and rental buildings, and, unlike Millender Center, they are surrounded by vibrant neighborhoods with tons of shops, restaurants and nightlife.

Millender Center is a government-subsidized 1980's apartment-hotel complex on top of a giant parking garage. It's mostly surrounded by offices and parking. Greektown is nearby, which is nice, but that neighborhood does not have comparable offerings to Old Woodward/Maple or Main/11 Mile.

If you want an urban lifestyle in metro Detroit, the best option for most people is probably the Woodward Corridor in Oakland County. Midtown around Wayne State is a possible second option. Lafayette Park and Corktown are possibilites. I would not include the Millender Center as a premiere example of an urban community.

Uh, there is nothing in Birmingham or Royal Oak that is like the Millender Center [[or any other high rise downtown). The first and most glaring difference about the Millender Center, which neither Birmingham nor Royal Oak offer, is that it is connected to the People Mover. Yeah, it's a joke of a train system... But a joke of a train system is much more than none at all.

I will stop here before I strike up another Detroit vs. Suburbs war of the words.

[English]

It's not because Detroit is dangerous. It is because Detroit is black. We have football fields' worth of sociological data about the "tipping point"... generally, you're not going to have nonblack folks move into an area that is more than 20% black. Even if the black people are all solidly middle class, law-abiding, and believe in education, it just will not happen. Period. End of story. Case closed.

We know it's not just the crime. If it was, Southfield would be one of the most desirable 'burbs during these tough economic times. My stepfather's subdivision near Inkster and 12 has a spotless 2800 sq ft home for sale for $139 K. But of course, "Southfield's schools are bad!" Or even, "it's dangerous!" Okay...

We know it's not just the schools. Let's leave the state and think about the top tier of HBCUs. You are not going to have many white people who will go to Howard, Morehouse, or Spelman... even though many HBCUs offer "minority scholarships" for underrepresented groups... in this case, nonblacks. [[I know this, because I had white friends at my HBCU who had full ride scholarships. Every nonblack student at my undergrad who I questioned about it had full room and board, tuition, fees, and books paid for.)

MOST people feel comfortable with sameness. I feel much more comfortable [[and generate fewer weird stares!) in Detroit than I do in Commerce Township, and I am 6 months away from a PhD. I exist in a professional world where I'm usually the only brown or black face in the room, and so it's nice to sometimes go back home to the old neighborhood or Hart Plaza and enjoy where I grew up. I'd imagine that white people feel the same way... along with every other ethnicity and culture on the planet! There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! I think that ALL folks in metro Detroit should feel comfortable to live wherever the h*ll they want... city, 'burb, farm, or swamp.

Meanwhile, because this is even a viable topic of conversation, the Detroit metro [[never mind the city) is losing young professionals under 35 like water through a sieve. I teach undergrads at the University of Michigan who mostly grew up in the suburbs of metro Detroit. NONE of them are envisioning any part of their lives after graduation within the state of Michigan. And no, this time we won't be able to use the lame excuses that "they'll move back once they have kids" or "they'll move back to care for elderly parents". They are looking for places that actually realize that it is the 21st century, but this region seems perpetually stuck in the mid-20th.

If we keep this madness up, in 50 years, Michigan will have the population of Montana or Wyoming. If we're lucky, that is.

[DetroitDad]

If you have kids why wouldn't you choose safety?

Do you want your kids to live in danger and teach them that it is normal and that they will just have to live with it?

I think safety is prevention of many things, not just the less common crime dangers, as I mentioned above. I believe we can provide a safe enough environment here in Detroit, and we're not the only family doing this here.

We all live in danger. Life is dangerous. The suburban safety dome isn't really there; wait until you see what happens to our suburbs and nation at the end of this recession. I'm teaching my kids how to deal with the dangers of life, and that they don't have to just sit and accept the status quo.

[EMG]

...suburbs are more dangerous than most areas of Detroit, let alone Downtown Detroit.

Anybody who honestly believes that is AT BEST suffering from a serious case of denial.

As a matter of fact, the only statement I've ever seen in my lifetime that even comes remotely close to being the least bit comparable to that whopper would have to be when Gerald Ford said he thought Poland didn't consider itself dominated by the Soviet Union.

[DetroitDad]

What's best for you might not be best for everyone.

Getting back on topic,

We just went down to get ice cream, mail some letters, and pick up a gallon of milk, all in the time between this post and the last. Now DetroitMom and I are going to take an evening stroll along the river. I love it down here.

[EMG]

Well thank you DetroitDad for taking that last post of mine relatively lightly. I had just come back here to apologize for being a tad stronger than I had intended.

I've actually been out of Michigan entirely for many years now [[and my primary purpose was to get TO warmer and snow-free weather than AWAY from Detroit). And I do agree with the rest of your earlier post; there but for the grace of time may well go the suburbs too. Let's hope not.

[2blocksaway]

how many choices did you have for places to get ice cream and milk?

[Retroit]

Nice post, English. I think you are right about white people not wanting to move into black areas. But I think it could also be argued that many blacks prefer to live, work, shop, etc. in white areas. Consider how many blacks are moving out of Detroit into the white suburbs when there are plenty of homes available in the city or black areas.

I don't think this stems from whites' belief that black individuals are inferior to whites, nor that blacks have some deep-seated self-hatred. I think it's that blacks have social/cultural [[I'll even add economic, although I think this is overplayed) problems to a much greater degree than whites. If there were black areas that were widely separated from Detroit that had low crime, good schools, well-kept neighborhoods, accountable municipal governments, etc., I think whites would be much more likely to move to such areas.

So, it's not so much the "blackness", but the "badness" that makes an area undesirable. Unfortunately, the two have been associated with each other. How this is overcome, I think, would make an excellent discussion.

[Detroitej72]

DetroitDad, its because of folks like you that I still have hope for Detroit. Keep up with your positive stories of your experiences, and, perhaps, your future career with the DPD.

As is evident by many of the posters here, they dislike the city for a number of reasons, both real and imagined. I think English hit the point home in stating that most of the negativity is because people have a hard time living where they are a minority.

For those of you who think Detroit is a cesspool of waste and criminals, stay in your suburban communities. As was stated earlier, city living is not for all.

[DetroitDad]

how many choices did you have for places to get ice cream and milk?

Oh, I don't know. Off the top of my head I would say I'm in walking distance to maybe ten convenience or grocery stores, and maybe six places to get ice cream. These are all viewed as safe business models in the CBD since the first couple opened, so they've been springing up like weeds.

You don't have to do outings to the grocery stores or post office in Downtown Detroit, you just pick stuff up and drop stuff off on your walks to and from places. We went out to get ice cream, but there was a mail box on the way, and a convenience store was also on the way, and we needed milk. On Mother's Day, I picked up a flower from that new florist in Merchant's Row on the way home for lunch one day. I walked by that place everyday.

[Gistok]

so what's your point, retroit? nobody ever said many of Detroit's neighborhoods don't have problems. I'm so sick of people acting like it's a crime to acknowledge that there are places in Detroit that are nice. It's not just downtown. Where I live [[Corktown) is nice. Just because I don't get robbed every week or have a burned-out house next door doesn't make me any less of a Detroiter. real cities have lots of different kinds of people in them, including upper middle class people who like security controlled high rises and students who like tree-lined streets of old victorians and yuppies who like overpriced lofts.

can't this guy from Iowa enjoy his nice millinder center apartment without getting grief from losers obsessed with trying to point out that distant neighborhoods are poor and dangerous?

Well Dex... which side of the fence are you going to sit on... this was your comment last week....

"I find the fetichization of detroit's buildings and "fabulous ruins" while the true issues confronting its people are ignored far more reprehensible."

Can't a guy enjoy the "ornate plasterwork" without "people acting like it's a crime to acknowledge that there are places in Detroit that are nice"?

[dexterferry]

ooh, gistok, you quoted me with so much self-satisfaction you must think you just won a freakin' lawsuit. way to go, tom cruise.

you'd made some smug comment about how your arcane knowledge of detroit theaters shows how much you care about detroit. I countered that with the wild notion that caring about the city is about more than just masturbating to a daguerreotype of c. howard crane out there wherever you live.

I'm sure we both agree that the fox theater is beautiful. but the people who choose to live in detroit have every right to want their apartment buildings and homes to be safe and nice. there's nothing contradictory in what I've written. move downtown and I'll give your plasterwork fetish a little more credit.