Unease at Wayne State University - Are policies freezing out minorities?

[brizee]

http://metrotimes.com/columns/unease...sity-1.1241588

Right on the heels of the Focus Hope debacle last week. This city/state/country is a Goddamn mess.

A few people I spoke with claimed that grades from DPS students are not considered equal to those of students from schools in places such as West Bloomfield or Grosse Pointe. For instance, a 3.2 DPS grade point average would be scored as something more like a 2.4 GPA from those other places.

Awesome.

[noise]

It's difficult to respond to the DPS problem for WSU, I'm sure. They're not taking it over, students are simply not prepared, retention rates are abysmal, funding has taken a serious hit, and you're 1 of the 3 research institutions in the state. What's the solution?

That's a sincere question, by the way. I'm not interested in defending anyone, but how can you move forward?

[noise]

The HuffPo story sounds a little less nefarious.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1126237.html

[corktownyuppie]

A few people I spoke with claimed that grades from DPS students are not considered equal to those of students from schools in places such as West Bloomfield or Grosse Pointe. For instance, a 3.2 DPS grade point average would be scored as something more like a 2.4 GPA from those other places.

No offense, but I don't see this as racial bias at all. A 3.2 DPS grade point average probably is equivalent to a 2.4 GPA from other places. There was an article naming Renaissance as the best high school in DPS with 10% of their graduates deemed prepared for college. Cass Tech was under 5%.

I'm not saying that Lahser or Grosse Pointe South are at 95%...but when the best schools in your system have a 10% less score for college preparedness, then a 3.0 GPA probably doesn't mean the same thing there as it does at other districts.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._finds_th.html

A quick perusal of the database that the Detroit Free Press provides

shows some heartbreaking figures.

In Detroit, the numbers were downright abysmal. Only Renaissance High, the district's top high school, broke even that 10 percent threshold. Of course, Renaissance's graduation rate in 2010 was an impressive 95.5 percent. At Cass Tech, which also graduated 95.5 percent of its students last year, only 4.4 percent of this year's expected grads are prepared for the next level academically.

Yes, there is a racial correlation, but it's not caused by race. I'm sure if Reinassance was pumping out 95% college-ready grads and Livonia Stevenson was pumping out 10% college ready grads, the numbers would be flipped.

Of course, the root cause of this is about educational opportunity in K-12, and that's worthy of discussion. But I don't think it's fair to point fingers at college admissions departments, who are charged with the duty of screening out applicants that aren't academically prepared for the rigors of college academics.

[English]

No offense, but I don't see this as racial bias at all. A 3.2 DPS grade point average probably is equivalent to a 2.4 GPA from other places. There was an article naming Renaissance as the best high school in DPS with 10% of their graduates deemed prepared for college. Cass Tech was under 5%.

I'm not saying that Lahser or Grosse Pointe South are at 95%...but when the best schools in your system have a 10% less score for college preparedness, then a 3.0 GPA probably doesn't mean the same thing there as it does at other districts.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._finds_th.html

Hmm. That article goes on to say:

"Of course, it's not just a Detroit thing. Lest you believe the education crisis is limited to the city, it should be noted that at schools throughout Macomb, Oakland and Wayne, anywhere from 75 percent to 100 percent of the students were determined to be unprepared for college. This despite graduation rates that are comparable to, or even better than, those at Cass Tech and Renaissance."


That report was discussed when it first debuted in February, and there was much discussion about the methodology. Nevertheless, I agree that test scores are falling. When I taught at Cass Tech nearly a decade ago, the average ACT score for the school was 21, and for White CT students, it was 26. Today, it's only 19.

Renaissance's average score was either 22 or 23 eight years ago. Today, their score is 20, which tops the city.

I agree with all of you. We have to do better.

[swingline]

Hmm. That article goes on to say:

"Of course, it's not just a Detroit thing. Lest you believe the education crisis is limited to the city, it should be noted that at schools throughout Macomb, Oakland and Wayne, anywhere from 75 percent to 100 percent of the students were determined to be unprepared for college. This despite graduation rates that are comparable to, or even better than, those at Cass Tech and Renaissance."


That report was discussed when it first debuted in February, and there was much discussion about the methodology. Nevertheless, I agree that test scores are falling. When I taught at Cass Tech nearly a decade ago, the average ACT score for the school was 21, and for White CT students, it was 26. Today, it's only 19.

Renaissance's average score was either 22 or 23 eight years ago. Today, their score is 20, which tops the city.

I agree with all of you. We have to do better.

The current Cass and Renaissance average ACT scores illuminate the incredibly difficult and intractable achievement problems that exist in poor urban [[and largely African American) school districts. Cass and Renaissance are filled with the most motivated and successful students in DPS, yet neither school can get its average ACT score into the upper 50th percentile. We have to find solutions that will improve education outcomes for these kids.

FWIW, I think that educators would learn a lot about DPS' mistakes and possible solutions by simply interviewing DPS grads from the past 5-15 years or so who have gone on to get post secondary degrees. These former students who have gone on to at least some education success outside of the dysfunctional DPS environment could easily identify ways in which the DPS experience could be improved.

[English]

The current Cass and Renaissance average ACT scores illuminate the incredibly difficult and intractable achievement problems that exist in poor urban [[and largely African American) school districts. Cass and Renaissance are filled with the most motivated and successful students in DPS, yet neither school can get its average ACT score into the upper 50th percentile. We have to find solutions that will improve education outcomes for these kids.

Hmm. I was under the impression that the 50th percentile for ACT was a 20. I'm an ACT consultant, and I'm heading to Iowa City later this winter to do some work. I'll check on it.

FWIW, I think that educators would learn a lot about DPS' mistakes and possible solutions by simply interviewing DPS grads from the past 5-15 years or so who have gone on to get post secondary degrees. These former students who have gone on to at least some education success outside of the dysfunctional DPS environment could easily identify ways in which the DPS experience could be improved.

So I graduated from Renaissance 16 years ago. I don't think such a qualitative study would be very revealing, swingline. Why? It's because the DPS I graduated from doesn't exist any longer. Heck, the DPS I taught in from 1999-2005 doesn't exist any longer. The exodus of large sections of the remaining Black middle class has affected the students and the system.

[iheartthed]

The current Cass and Renaissance average ACT scores illuminate the incredibly difficult and intractable achievement problems that exist in poor urban [[and largely African American) school districts. Cass and Renaissance are filled with the most motivated and successful students in DPS, yet neither school can get its average ACT score into the upper 50th percentile. We have to find solutions that will improve education outcomes for these kids.

I think ACT/SAT scores are not a good way to measure how well a school district is educating students, especially if you don't control for socioeconomics. ACT and SAT scores in particular are overly biased towards more affluent districts since parents in those districts spend thousands of dollars on tutorial classes that parents in less affluent districts can't afford/are unaware of.

ETA: But apparently Cass Tech's average ACT score is also the state's average: http://www.freep.com/article/2011062...ACT-MME-scores

[Det_ard]

http://metrotimes.com/columns/unease...sity-1.1241588

A few people I spoke with claimed that grades from DPS students are not considered equal to those of students from schools in places such as West Bloomfield or Grosse Pointe. For instance, a 3.2 DPS grade point average would be scored as something more like a 2.4 GPA from those other places.

Right on the heels of the Focus Hope debacle last week. This city/state/country is a Goddamn mess.



Awesome.

Assuming the 3.2 DPS GPA isn't from CT or Renaissance, it probably is equal to a 2.4 [[or worse) at a competitive high school. Selective Universities have been adjusting GPAs for HS quality for decades. It's the only way to accurately compare students from different HS.

I don't think WSU can be both a high-quality Tier 1 research university and pursue the "urban mission" if that's defined as offering admission to students with GPAs and ACTs well below comparable research institutions. There's too much remedial education occuring at WSU already. Many WSU students/grads have commented on the lack of quality of some of their fellow students. It's a major reason why WSU isn't a highly regarded undergraduate institution.

Now, if WSU wants to offer an opportunity for a college education to students with less competitive qualifications, that's their choice, but it will be at the expense of the education of the more qualified students, and the institution's overall reputation, with all that entails regarding their ability to recruit the best professors and students.

[corktownyuppie]

Now, if WSU wants to offer an opportunity for a college education to students with less competitive qualifications, that's their choice, but it will be at the expense of the education of the more qualified students, and the institution's overall reputation, with all that entails regarding their ability to recruit the best professors and students.

I understand the desire to want to pursue an urban mission and offer opportunities to people who don't have many. That's part of the reason why I moved back into the city rather than getting a cushy house in Birmingham.

The problem is that almost all the institutions in Detroit are about pursuing missions to help the disadvantaged. No city can survive without having highly competitive, top tier, "best of the "best, dare I even say..."elitist", institutions. Detroit [[the city) is sorely lacking in places that attract the top talent in the region.

Let's not kid ourselves. The problems facing the city are some of the most complex urban planning, poltical, and financial problems any city in the United States has seen. Even some of the brightest minds in the country comment on how staggering the issues are.

So how can you expect a community to solve it when 90% of its people are graduated from high school unprepared for higher education?

[evergreen]

The problems of Detroit won't be solved by WSU effectively implementing open admissions.. One thing no one's mentioned here is the fairness of young adults having to borrow money to pay for remedial courses - courses that cover material they should have learned for free in public schools. Maybe DPS needs a 13th grade.

The root of the problem is DPS. The whole country is waiting for a reasonably priced,effective method to educate inner city students. If the solution is too expensive, it cannot feasibly be implemented for large numbers of pupils. A Nobel Peace prize awaits the person who solves that problem.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
The root of the problem is DPS.
...

The root of the problem is DPS.

Tis stupidity to take WSU to task for giving equal access to all people based on their true educational attainment.

The root of the problem is DPS.

[Hypestyles]

WSU needs a much better adult-undergrad student schedule program/accommodations.. it's frustrating to have to deal with work + midday classes, with few options for evenings and weekends...

WSU should be operating charter schools, DPS tutoring programs if they are concerned about DPS graduation rates/equivalency levels. Prioritizing research over undergraduate retention is a longtime gripe of mine with colleges in general..

recruiting national/international students while ignoring the local student pool is disingenuous, at best.. And this is a public university, I'm not trying to hear all this stuff about elitist entitlement protocols..

[rb336]

The root of the problem isn't DPS -- it is the parents. The worst performing schools in NYC turned around because they put a major focus on parental involvement. Parental involvement is the #1 factor in determining academic success, and everything else is far back

[Danny]

Freezing WSU admissions to Blacks and Latinos. Sounds like affirmative action to me. Wayne State University Board of Governors are looking at the way Blacks and Latinos performed in uneducated schools from its grade point averages to academic achivement. That way it would prevent more exclusions and lower federal funding and private donations.

Folks grades is everything in order to go to college and possibly an excellent salary based carreer. Don't clown around or lose your study habits. As a matter of fact don't be lazy! In the meantime fight this rediculous admissions policy because getting into college is meant for anyone who can be ready and succeed for the structured society.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET


For the 99 Percenters and Spirit of Guy Fawkes.

I miss you so, Neda.

[English]

The root of the problem isn't DPS -- it is the parents. The worst performing schools in NYC turned around because they put a major focus on parental involvement. Parental involvement is the #1 factor in determining academic success, and everything else is far back

Agreed. That's why programs like the Harlem Children's Zone work... but our nation isn't really interested in HCZ-like solutions for urban schools. They're viewed as too cost prohibitive.

[swingline]

Agreed. That's why programs like the Harlem Children's Zone work... but our nation isn't really interested in HCZ-like solutions for urban schools. They're viewed as too cost prohibitive.

The HCZ organization spends almost $17,000 per student. Everything, including the cost of delivering education, is more expensive in Manhattan, but $17K is what, probably 2x what DPD gets from the state for its per pupil foundation grant.

While the state could never find that kind of extra money to assist broken urban school districts, especially from a Republican legislature, arguably the extra money is being spent anyway. It's just that it goes to Corrections rather than Education. And, ironically, all kinds of GED and post-secondary education programs were cut from the Corrections budget in the Engler era.

[Scottathew]

I don't think the policy is racist, but I do wonder about its fairness. But the WSU concerns are very legitimate, I've studied MEAP scores. I live in the Center Line district right now, and I wouldn't send my child there. However, even Center Line doubles DPS MEAP rates in many categories.

DPS as a whole, is an abject failure. Although I'm sure there are some success stories, those are the exception.

What does concern me though is that some great DPS students might get turned away, when really they belong in those WSU classrooms.

The cure for poverty is education, denying opportunities to those that need them the most will only hurt things.

[Zacha341]

Students not prepared for the rigors and standards of a university should consider community college education initially where class sizes are smaller and their is the opportunity to get more remedial help.

What's worse is when unprepared students attempt those 'accelerated' instant degree 'mills'. They have a very high failure rate, as students who require remedial work rarely do well in a 10 week or less program. They need the standard 15 - 16 week semester that you get a two or four year institution.

[alsodave]

Students not prepared for the rigors and standards of a university should consider community college education initially where class sizes are smaller and their is the opportunity to get more remedial help.

And a big problem is that most of those students aren't prepared for community college, either. And it's not limited to DPS students. Too many students are leaving high school and heading to community college without basic study skills. The CCs do have remedial/college prep seminars and courses and free tutoring available, but some students don't even test into the beginning level prep classes.

What's worse is when unprepared students attempt those 'accelerated' instant degree 'mills'. They have a very high failure rate, as students who require remedial work rarely do well in a 10 week or less program. They need the standard 15 - 16 week semester that you get a two or four year institution.

I cringe whenever I see those degree mill commercials. Those "schools" exist for one reason--to steal a student's state and federal financial aid money. When those students decide to move on to a real college, they discover that their "courses" don't transfer, and that their financial aid allotment has already been used up.

[nativegirl]

Alsodave,

You are correct about the Community College aspect. I graduated from HS many moons ago and I recently completed my Grad degree. I had to take a stats and calc class as a pre-req and ended up doing so at the WCCC Downtown campus. I felt like I was back in Jr. High. With the exception of a half a dozen of students in my stats class, no one knew that a) you had to bring your book to class and actually read the problems b) the daily study [[homework) was essential to the pop quiz and test c) other students and even the instructor are not responsible for ensuring that other students did their homework or got to class and lastly d) Some students were satisfied with Ds! I was just out-done. I graduated from a DPS high school but during a different era where personal accountantibility was stressed and getting grades wasn't considered being or acting "white."

[Bham1982]

I don't understand the surprise at the policy. Every school does this, at every level of education.

For example, I attended a supposedly elite public high school in Oakland County where most folks with a B average and decent SATs got into Michigan. At most high schools, a 3.2 won't get you into Michigan, but it was pretty routine among the folks I knew.

Is this unfair? Maybe, but it's logical from the school's perspective. They know that grading is highly variable, and they know the general cutoffs for success for folks arriving from a given school.

Is a 3.2 at Bloomfield Hills Andover the "same" as a 3.5 at another school, and a 3.7 somewhere else? Schools do make such determinations.

I can tell you that, anecdotally, most of the folks I knew who attended UofM were way, way ahead of their peers from other schools, and ended up with better GPAs than in high school. Same thing for my MSU friends.

As to racial bias, most of these "elite" suburban high schools are far more diverse than DPS schools. Many now have large African American populations.

[Zacha341]

Yep, NG and AD you've made excellent, compelling points, some speaking to the self-freezing out scene on campus! The attitude I've noted in the community college setting with some students is fun and games [[continuing from HS where basic study skills where not acquired) and money hustles in a percentage of students.

Teaching courses at a suburban community college I've noted some students simply not interested in even coming to class or a few that drop after two weeks or so after they get their loan moneys over and above their tuition costs [[reimbursement checks).

Some perceive this as free money and quit. I remind students day one that loans must be paid back and they if they unofficially drop [[disappear) they will fail the course. I remind them that their 'financial aid allotments' are finite and to seize the time to work hard while they have financial assistance.

[ndavies]

Wasn't Wayne State hammered by the media last year for it's high drop out rate? One way you fix a high drop out rate is to increase your incoming standards and limit the number of students that are likely to drop out.

[Zacha341]

^^^^ IMO it's mostly what is coming [[or not coming) from the home. If education is not valued there's lack of interest. Parents not parenting, too busy trying to be friends and cool with their kids and buy them stuff to cover short comings in parenting. This focus does nothing to encourage academic success.