Bankruptcy might be Detroit's only option - Freep article

[DJ Tom T]

Bankruptcy, Emergency Manager...whatever. Nothing will change until we as a city, county, state, and country change the way we think about government and government's role in our lives.

This is an article from 2004 that I found really interesting and insightful. I know it slants Republican, and Imprimis comes from the right pretty much all the time, but look past that while you read this and you will see some salient and interesting points.

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprim...=2004&month=04

Canada went through something similar to this [[although not as extensive I think) in the early part of this decade and emerged in good shape.

Bottom line - what do we need government to do? Government should do that and nothing more. All the financial games we play to cover this deficit will amount to nothing if we don't change the system completely so this doesn't happen again.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Chrysler and GM did it. And they are supposedly back on the road to prosperity, why can't Detroit? I understand that cities are different but, people and businesses do it everyday as well, the social stigma of bankruptcy seems to have gone away, although I realize it should be the last alternative.

[corktownyuppie]

Chrysler and GM did it. And they are supposedly back on the road to prosperity, why can't Detroit? I understand that cities are different but, people and businesses do it everyday as well, the social stigma of bankruptcy seems to have gone away, although I realize it should be the last alternative.

I wrestle with this idea. I get what you're saying...why not apply the same mechanics to the City of Detroit that we did with GM? And even if the City of Detroit can't borrow money for 5-10 years until they build good credit, then it'll all be worth it.

But here's the difference. It's not one that means anything to the average Joe, but it's a big, big distinction financially when you think about it.

When a corporation files bankruptcy, the owners [[stockholders) take a beating. They lose everything. And they SHOULD. The company is filing for bankruptcy because the owners/stockholders are the ones with the control to change how they manage their business. For example, everyone talks about great the GM revival has been. And, that's because it's true. It has been. The company is leaner, much more efficient, and much more profitable.

But who lost out in the GM bankruptcy? The owners. They lost everything. Remember that whether you owned $10,000 or $1,000,000 in GM stock in 2007...the stock is worthless today. And they should have lost everything. They should be punished financially for not making the necessary decisions to be profitable.

So where's all this "new GM" stock going? Where's all the profits going? To the people who lent GM money and weren't getting paid their loans back. For example, you lent GM $10,000 in at a fixed rate loan. When GM went bankrupt they called you and said, "You can either get $0, or you can get $7,000...not in cash...but in the new GM stock. Congratulations. We can't pay you, so now you're in charge of running the company." So even though the new GM stockowners are "happy"...they aren't really. They just lent GM money and got stuck getting paid back in stock that might one day be worth enough to pay the entire balance they were owned.

Ok, so why the lesson on stocks? Well because when a city goes bankrupt, there are NO stockholders to punish. And when the bankruptcy is over, are there new owners to run the company? No. And when the whole thing is said and done, it's the same citizens that elected the poor leadership before that still get to vote in new leadership after.

And so that's why it's complicated. In my opinion, IF in a bankruptcy situation the state has to step in and pay Detroit's debts [[like pension and benefit costs), then I think the state should get the right to run the city, which means it will be elected by statewide reps. Let's be honest...if you come to me begging for an emergency loan, then I'm gonna dictate how that money is spent. And if you don't like it, then go asks someone else for the loan. And then when the city gets to the point where it pays off all the debts, then Detroit can start brand-new or de-incorporate back into Wayne County.

Will this get me elected Mayor? No. But the system that elected our leadership also put us in this situation, so....

[erikd]

Assuming that plan actually works out though, it's going to take forever to come to fruition.

98% of the city's population lives outside of downtown/midtown, and you can't continue subsidizing downtown/midtown if you're allowing whatever's left of the tax base to continue leaving the city [[no money).

What makes you think that the rest of the city subsidizes downtown/midtown?

Many people assume this is true, but I think that the reality is exactly the opposite. I don't know how much tax revenue the city collects from GM, Compuware, Comerica, MGM, GTC, MotorCity, DTE, Little Caesars, Quicken, and hundreds of other businesses located in downtown/midtown, but it must be quite a lot. Not to mention the income tax collected on the tens of thousands of workers in downtown/midtown, many of them being well-paid professionals.

Do you think that the city spends more money providing services to to the three square miles of downtown/midtown than it collects in taxes from them?

[corktownyuppie]

What makes you think that the rest of the city subsidizes downtown/midtown?

Many people assume this is true, but I think that the reality is exactly the opposite. I don't know how much tax revenue the city collects from GM, Compuware, Comerica, MGM, GTC, MotorCity, DTE, Little Caesars, Quicken, and hundreds of other businesses located in downtown/midtown, but it must be quite a lot. Not to mention the income tax collected on the tens of thousands of workers in downtown/midtown, many of them being well-paid professionals.

Do you think that the city spends more money providing services to to the three square miles of downtown/midtown than it collects in taxes from them?

There is no way downtown/midtown is being subsidized by the rest of the city. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but consider the following....

- The corporate taxes that the city waives are far outweighed by the income taxes collected from all the employees in downtown and midtown. Not to mention, btw, that many of the people paying said tax earn well above the $25,787 median income. Well above.

- Midtown has its own quasi-police force with the Wayne State Public Safety. I don't believe it is funded by the city general tax fund. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

- Even with the vacant buildings around, density in downtown/midtown is pretty high compared to the rest of the city. The amount of infrastructure used there is well-supported.

I'm open to being corrected. But if someone wants to tell me that downtown is being subsidized, they can't just show the amount of tax dollars waived. You need to state the tax dollars being collected, too, you know?

[313WX]

To erikd, doing the math [[50,000 residents live in downtown/midtown, many of which are poor college students, 100,000-150,000 workers, and even a net commuting loss during the day), it doesn't add up that downtown could possibly support itself if the other 98% of the city just fell off the earth. Remind you many of the workers downtown actually live in and own homes in the neighborhoods, not downtown.

It's true that the Wayne State Police patrols Wayne State, but it's their responsibility to make sure their staff and students are safe while on campus and they chose to spend that money. I'm sure many colleges do this across the country. Apples and Oranges.

That said, the casinos only bring in 1/4 of the city's revenue. The rest comes from property and income taxes.

EDIT: Bottom line is something fishyis going on when the city can afford to put over 1,000 new streetlights down there [[As if the ones already in place weren't sufficient), put up new parking meters [[as if the old ones weren't working just fine), have a cop in every and which direction down there, have the streets plowed as quickly as the snow falls and prettty it up every Chiristmas while neighborhoods such as East English Village can't even get a cop to respond any sooner than 15 minutes and half of the rest of the city sits in the dark.

[corktownyuppie]

To erikd, doing the math [[50,000 residents live in downtown/midtown, many of which are poor college students, 100,000-150,000 workers, and even a net commuting loss during the day), it doesn't add up that downtown could possibly support itself if the other 98% of the city just fell off the earth. Remind you many of the workers downtown actually live in and own homes in the neighborhoods, not downtown.

It's true that the Wayne State Police patrols Wayne State, but it's their responsibility to make sure their staff and students are safe while on campus and they chose to spend that money. I'm sure many colleges do this across the country. Apples and Oranges.

That said, the casinos only bring in 1/4 of the city's revenue. The rest comes from property and income taxes.

I'm still not following. If Wayne State police is patrolling the area [[and their website states that the "area" includes the surrounding neighborhoods), then you have that much less area for DPD to cover. 50,000 residents + 100,000 workers = 150,000 people paying taxes into the city. Even if Detroit had 750,000 residents, that means that 150,000 makes up 20% of the people in the city. Downtown and Midtown at 3 square miles would be 2% of the city geography, 2% of the infrastructure, 2% of the roads to repair and police.

20% of the people paying for 2% of the expenses seem like the area is self-sustaining.

[313WX]

50,000 residents + 100,000 workers = 150,000 people paying taxes into the city.

1. Can you tell me how you reach that conclusion? The 50,000 is the TOTAL population, including children, elderly, poor and students. I doubt they're all paying taxes.

2. You're right, the workers do pay taxes, and they also live in the neighborhoods.

Only a small amounts of the work force downtown commutes from the suburbs, and even then they only pay half the taxes Detroit residents do.

[corktownyuppie]

2. You're right, the workers do pay taxes, and they also live in the neighborhoods.

Only a small amounts of the work force downtown commutes from the suburbs, and even then they only pay half the taxes Detroit residents do.

I'm less concerned about the students, for the purpose of analysis, let's scrap the 50,000 residents and just focus on the 100,000 employees.

I don't see how the suburban workforce pays only have the taxes of Detroiters. Sure, they may pay half -- as a percentage -- but they're paying a lot more in actual dollars.

Tony Earley of DTE made $4.84 million dollars in 2007. Yes, he may have only paid half the income tax rate as Detroit residents, but 1.5% of $4.84MM dollars is a hell of a lot more than 3% of $75,000.

Downtown and midtown have a very disproportionate amount of revenue per square mile, hands down. In fact, I can't imagine another 3 square mile area in Detroit that even brings in half the revenue than that of downtown and midtown.

[corktownyuppie]

Downtown alone [[leaving out Midtown) is so wealthy that back when the Council-by-District debate was really going strong, there was controversy over who would get to represent downtown. If there's one area in the city that could survive without the rest of the city it's Downtown.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010082...-city-s-future

A sticking point
The big fight as Detroit struggles to be one city will be over downtown. Downtown has gotten more than $1-billion worth of attention in the past decade, and that just covers Campus Martius, Ford Field, Comerica Park and the waterfront redo. If it becomes a district, will one council member get a gold ticket while others struggle with decay? Bishop Edgar Vann, pastor of Second Ebenezer Church, said that, instead of fighting over a single district, council members should ensure that the charter commission gives the district reps the authority to actually do things.

"If a person is a council person in a certain area, he or she presently has no influence or very little influence in how garbage is picked up, whether or not streetlights are on, and whether a certain kind of project will go in their area, as an alderman in Chicago would," he said.

And politicians should not rush to split downtown.

"I wouldn't think that we should engage in a lot of sort of idiotic district drawing," Vann said.

Detroit Regional Chamber President and CEO Sandy Baruah said he wants to "make sure we have an active economic development effort under way" citywide.

Pugh, who as council president sits on the commission that will approve the eventual districts, said they will be drawn solely with numbers, but he thinks every district should have "all that is important to a community: schools, churches, businesses ... parks, recs, police, fire."

And he wants downtown split.

"Not seven ways, hell no!" Pugh said. "But downtown should be in at least three districts. I would think that the southwest district should include part of downtown. ...

"Downtown has all the power brokers, from the Ford family with Ford Field to the Ilitches to the Karmanoses to Dan Gilbert to Penske to General Motors. Downtown is really a pot of gold in terms of political and economic power so, that being the case, we're hopefully not going to have all the sports teams under one council member."

"These are some serious conversations that we need to have," Pugh said.

Rev. Holley, has my favorite solution:

"Downtown is almost like the diamond on a woman's finger. It says much about the quality of the relationship," he said. "Downtown should not be one of the seven districts. It cannot be if you want everyone to focus on the rest of the city.

[iheartthed]

Downtown and midtown have a very disproportionate amount of revenue per square mile, hands down. In fact, I can't imagine another 3 square mile area in Detroit that even brings in half the revenue than that of downtown and midtown.

From income taxes? I can...

If you're talking business taxes too then well, yeah duh. Those are the two main business districts in the city.

[313WX]

From income taxes? I can...

If you're talking business taxes too then well, yeah duh. Those are the two main business districts in the city.

Income taxes make up nearly half of the city's revenue.

That said, for the business taxes ,I'd venture to say businesses outside of downtown [[industry and commercial) pay way more in taxes collectively than all of businesses downtown. The places outside of downtown don't benefit from the same tax credits [[which technically is a subsidy) that businesses in downtown/midtown do.

[313WX]

It's not the subsidizing of downtown that's the problem though, all cities do it.

The problem is when you do so while the 98% of the rest of the city can't even receive services equivalent to what you would find in a first world country.

Do it makes folks who live in the neighborhood bad people because we're pissed that we must pay twice as much as taxes yet only receive half of the services thatg we should while only 2% of the city is getting all the attention? Does it make us bad people because we were left behind to "support" infrastructure for 2 million people and thus we don't deserve basic services and should abandon our homes as well? If folks were really serious about bringing back downtown, let them do it on their own.

[corktownyuppie]

I'm still not convinced we're talking about the same thing. Let's, for a moment, assume that the taxes [[of all kind) collected downtown = $30MM. And let's say the taxes collected in the rest of the city = $200MM.

That does not mean that the rest of the city is subsidizing downtown.

The correct analysis is to look at the dollars collected in revenue and divide it by the dollars spent on services to create a ratio of dollars in vs. dollars out.

If you collect 200MM but spend 400MM, then your part of town is getting twice as much in services than it is paying for. If you collect 50MM in taxes but spend 10MM on services than you're paying for then your part of town is collect 5x more than it's getting back in services. In that you're not getting subsidized, you're subsidizing everyone else.

Looking at tax credits the way presented above is flawed analysis. Tax credits are not a service received by the people in that area. A Tax credit is just a number that negatively affects the amount of taxes collected. So if an area #1 collects 50MM in taxes, but then received 30MM in tax credits, then you're at a total of 20MM in net tax receipts. If that area receives 10MM in services and infrastructural benefit, then the ratio is 2:1 or 200%.

Compare that to a part of the city, area #2, that collects 100MM in taxes with no tax credits. But let's say that part of the city also receives 100MM in services and infrastructural costs. the ratio is only 1:1 or 100%.

Area #1 collects less, receives more credits but has a 2:1 service ratio.
Area #2 collects twice as much, receives no credits but has a 1:1 service ratio.

It's Area #1 that is subsidizing Area #2.

It doesn't matter if the rest of the city collects 10x much taxes as downtown. It also covers 98% of the geography. Downtown/midtown also uses less of the DPD police force because of Wayne State PD. Net tax receipts might be lower. Maybe. But when compared to the dollars per sq. mile, it isn't even close. Downtown and midtown are 2 of the densest economic forces in the city.

This is why downtown and midtown can support a Whole Foods, whereas the rest of the city combined can barely support a Farmer Jack.

[313WX]

This is why downtown and midtown can support a Whole Foods, whereas the rest of the city combined can barely support a Farmer Jack.

Ummm, yeah, I wonder how likely Whole Foods would be to open a store if we took away their $4.2 Million Dollar SUBSIDY [[which is half of the expensives)...

I also wonder how likely a chain store would open in the neighborhood if half of its costs were also subsidized.

[corktownyuppie]

Ummm, yeah, I wonder how likely Whole Foods would be to open a store if we took away their $4.2 Million Dollar SUBSIDY [[which is half of the expensives)...

I also wonder how likely a chain store would open in the neighborhood if half of its costs were also subsidized.

Look, if you took away the $4.2MM subsidy, then you would have a vacant lot producing almost no tax revenue, with no employees to tax. That $4.2MM tax subsidy doesn't mean that the rest of the city is writing a $4.2MM check. That's not how subisidies work.

I open up my Sunday newspaper. I clip coupons for 2 hours. Those coupons add up to $400 in savings! Does that mean that the newspaper just put $400 in pocket? No. Does that mean that Kroger just gave me $400? No. Fact is that I'll have to spend $3,000 in stuff just to get the $400 savings.

That's how a tax subsidy works.

[corktownyuppie]

p.s. If your point is that downtown and midtown receive a disproportionate share of incentives -- or "coupons", per my analogy -- then, yes. I will agree. And that may be a source of injustice as far as the city is concerned...I'll let that be another conversation.

But even if the above were true, that doesn't mean that the rest of the city is subsidizing downtown and midtown. Nor does it mean that downtown/midtown could survive with out the rest of the Detroit. Hell, much of our budget deficit comes from legacy costs such as paying a pension to someone who's 80 years old and left the city or state 20 years ago.

But on a dollars received vs. dollars spent analysis, downtown and midtown are definitely paying more into the city than they spend in costs.

Think about it. Grand Circus Park hosts 300 residents right now and probably twice that in the near future. But you can effectively patrol it with one police car [[on non-event days). Compare that to the cost of policing 300 residents over how many square miles up at 6 and Davison. Also look at dollars spent for crime and criminal investigation. Throw in the time spent in trash collection and number of street lights. Also the number of fires.

The numbers aren't even close.

[iheartthed]

Income taxes make up nearly half of the city's revenue.

That said, for the business taxes ,I'd venture to say businesses outside of downtown [[industry and commercial) pay way more in taxes collectively than all of businesses downtown. The places outside of downtown don't benefit from the same tax credits [[which technically is a subsidy) that businesses in downtown/midtown do.

Well, in that case, downtown/midtown is being completely subsidized at the expense of the outer neighborhoods. Grandmont/Rosedale -- an area that has more residents than Ferndale -- absolutely generates as at least as much income tax as downtown and midtown. Then consider that they actually have to pay property taxes over there...

[313WX]

Well, in that case, downtown/midtown is being completely subsidized at the expense of the outer neighborhoods. Grandmont/Rosedale -- an area that has more residents than Ferndale -- absolutely generates as at least as much income tax as downtown and midtown. Then consider that they actually have to pay property taxes over there...

Exactly.

That's why I'm still not convinced downtown/midtown isn't subsidized.

[corktownyuppie]

=iheartthed;288676Grandmont/Rosedale -- an area that has more residents than Ferndale -- absolutely generates as at least as much income tax as downtown and midtown.

You have my ear. How did you come to this conclusion? Because if you're right then I see where you're coming from. Do you have anything quantitative to represent this?

And just so we're on the same page, when you're looking at downtown numbers, we're not just counting the residents, right? Think of all those doctors at DMC driving in from Oakland County. Yeah, their tax rate might be only half of Detroit residents. But they also make more than 4-6x the Detroit median income.

[iheartthed]

You have my ear. How did you come to this conclusion? Because if you're right then I see where you're coming from. Do you have anything quantitative to represent this?

This is what I pulled from the city-data.com breakdown of Detroit neighborhoods: http://www.city-data.com/city/Detroit-Michigan.html

Neighborhood Populations
Grandmont: 2,901
Grandmont-Rosedale [[Grandmont #2): 11,712
Rosedale Park: 3,880
North Rosedale Park: 5,144

Combined population: 23,637
Combined area: 3.779 miles

Median household income
Grandmont: $51,930
Grandmont-Rosedale [[Grandmont #2): $34,776*
Rosedale Park: $60,531
North Rosedale Park: $66,907

Weighted average of median income: $48,101

*This data uses a broad definition for Grandmont-Rosedale so the median income is diluted by subsections of the area which aren't traditionally considered part of Grandmont-Rosedale. But all of the subsections of Grandmont-Rosedale still have significantly higher median incomes than the city of Detroit as a whole.

[[For comparisons sake, Ferndale, according to the 2010 Census, had a population of 19,900. The 2005-2009 estimated median household income was $51,682. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/2627880.html)

The numbers for downtown are... not very flattering. So I'm not sure how up-to-date/accurate the data is for those neighborhoods, thus I won't bother including them. But there is no way the residential/income numbers have surpassed that of the Grandmont-Rosedale area.

And just so we're on the same page, when you're looking at downtown numbers, we're not just counting the residents, right? Think of all those doctors at DMC driving in from Oakland County. Yeah, their tax rate might be only half of Detroit residents. But they also make more than 4-6x the Detroit median income.

I'm just talking residents who pay income taxes. I acknowledge that when you consider the actual businesses as well as employees who live outside of the city, then things may tilt a little more evenly [[but there is no way to distinguish between employees who work in the DMC and live in the city versus those who live in the suburbs).

[corktownyuppie]

This is what I pulled from the city-data.com breakdown of Detroit neighborhoods: http://www.city-data.com/city/Detroit-Michigan.html

Neighborhood Populations
Grandmont: 2,901
Grandmont-Rosedale [[Grandmont #2): 11,712
Rosedale Park: 3,880
North Rosedale Park: 5,144

Combined population: 23,637
Combined area: 3.779 miles

Median household income
Grandmont: $51,930
Grandmont-Rosedale [[Grandmont #2): $34,776*
Rosedale Park: $60,531
North Rosedale Park: $66,907

Weighted average of median income: $48,101

*This data uses a broad definition for Grandmont-Rosedale so the median income is diluted by subsections of the area which aren't traditionally considered part of Grandmont-Rosedale. But all of the subsections of Grandmont-Rosedale still have significantly higher median incomes than the city of Detroit as a whole.

[[For comparisons sake, Ferndale, according to the 2010 Census, had a population of 19,900. The 2005-2009 estimated median household income was $51,682. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/2627880.html)

The numbers for downtown are... not very flattering. So I'm not sure how up-to-date/accurate the data is for those neighborhoods, thus I won't bother including them. But there is no way the residential/income numbers have surpassed that of the Grandmont-Rosedale area.



I'm just talking residents who pay income taxes. I acknowledge that when you consider the actual businesses as well as employees who live outside of the city, then things may tilt a little more evenly [[but there is no way to distinguish between employees who work in the DMC and live in the city versus those who live in the suburbs).

I agree with your analysis. If we are only talking about the residents of downtown, then it's very clear that downtown doesn't pay its share of income or property tax.

But you have to admit that by counting only residents and not any of the thousands of employees coming from the suburbs is like ordering a coney dog without the chili, mustard, or onions. It's not really a coney dog, then, right?

Plus when you consider that the highest income employees in downtown are also the least likely to live in the city, it wouldn't surprise me if we collected more income tax from the commuters than we did from the residents. Like I said earlier, 1.5% of $4 million is a lot more than 3% of $25,000.

I wish there was better data on this, because it would be better not just for policy debate, but also for investors and businesses. Downtown and Midtown Detroit are like no other areas in the city. Midtown, with its own police force, is in many ways its own municipal unit.

[iheartthed]

I agree with your analysis. If we are only talking about the residents of downtown, then it's very clear that downtown doesn't pay its share of income or property tax.

But you have to admit that by counting only residents and not any of the thousands of employees coming from the suburbs is like ordering a coney dog without the chili, mustard, or onions. It's not really a coney dog, then, right?

Plus when you consider that the highest income employees in downtown are also the least likely to live in the city, it wouldn't surprise me if we collected more income tax from the commuters than we did from the residents. Like I said earlier, 1.5% of $4 million is a lot more than 3% of $25,000.

I wish there was better data on this, because it would be better not just for policy debate, but also for investors and businesses. Downtown and Midtown Detroit are like no other areas in the city. Midtown, with its own police force, is in many ways its own municipal unit.

Well, I don't know that we were ever in disagreement, lol. Except for that last part: Downtown and Midtown are the major business districts of Detroit. Every major American city has one or two and they all have a high concentration of workers who commute cross municipal boundaries [[well, this is pretty much true for any jobs center. For instance, most of the people who work in Dearborn or Auburn Hills don't live in Dearborn or Auburn Hills).

[corktownyuppie]

Well, I don't know that we were ever in disagreement, lol. Except for that last part: Downtown and Midtown are the major business districts of Detroit. Every major American city has one or two and they all have a high concentration of workers who commute cross municipal boundaries [[well, this is pretty much true for any jobs center. For instance, most of the people who work in Dearborn or Auburn Hills don't live in Dearborn or Auburn Hills).

Lol. Yeah, I see what you're saying. So back to the original question...is downtown being subsidized by the neighborhoods? I would still say no, because I think more money flows through the downtown from outside the city than anywhere else.

But I would add the following:

- Yes, downtown receives more subsidies than any other part of the city. But that does not mean that the neighborhoods are subsidizing downtown. I think that's where the confusion lies. To state that a neighborhood is subsidizing another implies that monies from one is flowing into another in order to keep it running. I'm willing to say I'm wrong when we can find some hard data, but I just can't see Grandmont-Rosedale losing its share of service because the money is being used to pay for downtown services.

Like a mentioned, a tax subsidy is like a coupon. And I know that if I clip $500 in coupons one week, that doesn't mean that I just made $500 and I get to take a day off of work.

- To answer the question about whether a neighborhood is a net benefit or a net cost to the city, ask this question... "When I add the total property tax collected and total income tax collected from this neighborhood, is it higher or lower than the cost to police it, offer fire coverage, do trash collection, sewers, etc." In Grandmont-Rosedale, I'm pretty confident that the answer is yes. In EEV, I hope it still is. In other areas...probably not.

[Novine]

"here is no way downtown/midtown is being subsidized by the rest of the city. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but consider the following...."

Don't forget the revenue vacuum that is the DDA. It literally sucks up all of the property tax revenue that is generated in the DDA district and spends it only in the DDA district. Where else in the city do the locally generated property tax dollars stay in the area where they are paid? Nowhere. Those dollars are spread across the entire city, including within the DDA district, to cover the costs of general services. If the DDA wasn't sucking up those dollars, how much of the property tax revenue generated in the district would be available to pay for services elsewhere in the city.