Decline of Detroit, did it have to be this bad?

[maxx]

Finland has the highest rated education system in the world. I'm sure Forward can confirm that, along with extremely low crime rates.

Stromberg2

And according to WHO in 2000 its health system was better than ours. Maybe Finns just don't eat as much processed food as we do.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

[iheartthed]

Other U.S. cities have had the same problems -- crime, declining schools, movement to sprawling suburbs -- but with less impact. One city had to be hit the worst, and Detroit was it. But why?

Why is Chicago so much better off? Similar climate, so that's not it. A mass transit system? Not likely a key factor; Detroit's buses were reliable, efficient and much-used [[at least through the late '60s, when I rode them daily). More diverse business and industry? That certainly helps.

But I wonder if there was some arm-twisting or other effort in Chicago that didn't exist here to keep businesses from moving to the burbs. The more things have sprawled here, the more difficult it has become for poor people in the city to find work -- and the more economically segregated we have become.

I think transit issues have played significantly into Detroit's decline. I was born in the 1980s, so I completely missed Detroit's heyday. But since I now live in New York, I can easily imagine what a nightmare traffic in the city of Detroit must have been in 1950, when there were two million people and no rapid transit alternative to buses and cars [[both constrained by the same physical limitations as opposed to a subway system). I imagine that moving the office to the greenfield on the urban fringe with the brand new, uncongested roads was a no brainer for business leaders of the era. I also imagine that the decision might not have been as clear cut if your employees depended on a rail line to get to work and moving to the greenfield meant that they would have to find an alternative way to get to work, which may have been the case in New York or Chicago.

I've learned, since moving to New York, that a dense city just does not operate well without diverse modes of transportation, including rail transit, to move around its population. This means leadership should pay as much attention to how people get around without a car as to how they do with a car. Detroit, for decades, hasn't paid much attention at all to how people get around without cars. For some reason, it seems that cities that do pay attention to stuff like that tended to have much more stable populations than Detroit*, despite also having to deal with issues like crime, racism, declining schools, etc.

*This actually isn't just specific to Detroit, but its indicative of Midwest/Rust Belt cities in general. Even Chicago has a subpar transit system for a city of its size, and the areas of Chicago that are hemorrhaging population tend to be those ill-served by mass transportation options.

[maxx]

And in 1992 Finland compared favorably with the US in home ownership, earning power, and average household savings to name just a few categories covered in Where We Stand.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm

And it is included among the very high human development countries in the human dev. index.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Crime is an issue. However, I think the larger issue was racism, segregation, and limited opportunities for black people.

The playing field is much more level now, but the damage has been done.

The playing field is better, but i wouldn't say it's leveled.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

And you can also add the "Big 3" to the equation for Detroit's downfall in regards to light rail and rapid transit. My Dad told me that the D3 were the main influences for the streetcars being abolished in 1956. They wanted cars to be the only mode of transportation in Detroit besides buses and cabs [[which are cars of course)

[EastsideAl]

Lack of economic diversity or growth and exceptionally poisonous race relations. These things have held us back for decades, and continue to hold us back today. Nearly every other problem, or frustrating failure to address a problem, in this metropolitan area seems to be tied to one of these two factors. And you just go from there...

[EastsideAl]

And you can also add the "Big 3" to the equation for Detroit's downfall in regards to light rail and rapid transit. My Dad told me that the D3 were the main influences for the streetcars being abolished. They wanted cars to be the only mode of transportation in Detroit besides buses and cabs [[which are cars of course)

GM's actions in particular in the destruction of street rail systems around the country are historically controversial, but it is pretty much beyond question that they had some significant role. Of course, Detroit was one of their main targets, and one that wasn't going to resist one of their largest employers. The primary purpose was seemingly to sell more of their buses, but I'd bet that the possibility pushing a few more people towards buying cars sure didn't hurt either.

[Detroitnerd]

GM's actions in particular in the destruction of street rail systems around the country are historically controversial, but it is pretty much beyond question that they had some significant role. Of course, Detroit was one of their main targets, and one that wasn't going to resist one of their largest employers. The primary purpose was seemingly to sell more of their buses, but I'd bet that the possibility pushing a few more people towards buying cars sure didn't hurt either.

The old National City Lines story. Frequently, when you discuss that conspiracy of GM, Firestone and Standard, some poster will be all over you like mayonnaise in a heartbeat, saying that they were never found guilty of conspiracy, and that they didn't conspire to do away with streetcars. The fact is they bought up streetcar systems and dismantled them -- ostensibly to sell more motor coaches! The the conspirers basically cried to the feds, "We didn't do it! And we promise not to do it again!"

Of course, Detroit's streetcars were publicly owned and not for sale, but they appointed a lot of people who favored buses to head up the DSR. The head of the transit planning committee was Sidney Waldon, an old Packard and Cadillac man who called the automobile "the magic carpet of transportation for all mankind." His committee designed a system of superhighways to accommodate cars and trains. The superhighways were built, but the trains were forgotten.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The old National City Lines story. Frequently, when you discuss that conspiracy of GM, Firestone and Standard, some poster will be all over you like mayonnaise in a heartbeat, saying that they were never found guilty of conspiracy, and that they didn't conspire to do away with streetcars. The fact is they bought up streetcar systems and dismantled them -- ostensibly to sell more motor coaches! The the conspirers basically cried to the feds, "We didn't do it! And we promise not to do it again!"

Of course, Detroit's streetcars were publicly owned and not for sale, but they appointed a lot of people who favored buses to head up the DSR. The head of the transit planning committee was Sidney Waldon, an old Packard and Cadillac man who called the automobile "the magic carpet of transportation for all mankind." His committee designed a system of superhighways to accommodate cars and trains. The superhighways were built, but the trains were forgotten.

What do you mean by "The old National City Lines" story? Thx for the info.

[Detroitnerd]

What do you mean by "The old National City Lines" story? Thx for the info.

http://bit.ly/tmtEal

[Modusvivendi]

Interesting thoughts. I'm not from the area, but from what I gather, toxic race relations has to be the single factor in Detroit's decline. Obviously things like overdependence on the auto industry made Detroit susceptible to economic swings, but that can't be the biggest factor. If it were, you would think the suburbs would be in more or less the same state as Detroit [[I.e., they would have suffered massive population loss, collapse of property values, etc.). But they didn't. Detroit's decline seems to have less to do with people getting poorer than with nearly all of the middle class [[whites) leaving. And terrible race relations seem to be at the root of why so many left. If lack of jobs were the issue, presumably middle class whites would have left the region entirely, not just Detroit proper. If the white middle class had stayed, the city would have been much better able to weather economic storms, as the suburbs have in comparison. [[note that I don't mean this to judge one group versus another, just pointing out economics).

What do others think? And why were race relations In Detroit so toxic?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

^^ Thx for the link.

[313WX]

Interesting thoughts. I'm not from the area, but from what I gather, toxic race relations has to be the single factor in Detroit's decline. Obviously things like overdependence on the auto industry made Detroit susceptible to economic swings, but that can't be the biggest factor. If it were, you would think the suburbs would be in more or less the same state as Detroit [[I.e., they would have suffered massive population loss, collapse of property values, etc.). But they didn't. Detroit's decline seems to have less to do with people getting poorer than with nearly all of the middle class [[whites) leaving. And terrible race relations seem to be at the root of why so many left. If lack of jobs were the issue, presumably middle class whites would have left the region entirely, not just Detroit proper. If the white middle class had stayed, the city would have been much better able to weather economic storms, as the suburbs have in comparison. [[note that I don't mean this to judge one group versus another, just pointing out economics).

What do others think? And why were race relations In Detroit so toxic?

Yep, you've summed it all up to a tee.

[fryar]

Interesting thoughts. I'm not from the area, but from what I gather, toxic race relations has to be the single factor in Detroit's decline. Obviously things like overdependence on the auto industry made Detroit susceptible to economic swings, but that can't be the biggest factor. If it were, you would think the suburbs would be in more or less the same state as Detroit [[I.e., they would have suffered massive population loss, collapse of property values, etc.). But they didn't. Detroit's decline seems to have less to do with people getting poorer than with nearly all of the middle class [[whites) leaving. And terrible race relations seem to be at the root of why so many left. If lack of jobs were the issue, presumably middle class whites would have left the region entirely, not just Detroit proper. If the white middle class had stayed, the city would have been much better able to weather economic storms, as the suburbs have in comparison. [[note that I don't mean this to judge one group versus another, just pointing out economics).

What do others think? And why were race relations In Detroit so toxic?

The DY Bible on Toxic Race Relations in Detroit. Notwithstanding my smug snarkiness there, it is well worth reading. The neverending litany of ways in which black people were undercut is astounding.

Can it all really boil down simply to the idea that racism was worse than elsewhere? That's the big difference?

I have this "old canard" that if you are a budding Oncologist [["Cancer Doctor") in the making, you would do well to consider the Silicon Valley area for your clinic. Along with a number of other factors, like high income, the area is bound to have had higher penetration of smartphones earlier on than other areas. As a result, you should see lots of business in the future. Assuming smartphones do cause cancer, presumably of the noggin, that is.

Assuming there is a similar story to tell with regard to Detroit and cars - and why wouldn't there be - this is one thing that's truly different about Detroit. It is not surprising to think that the great wealth generated by the auto industry may have been invested in auto-centric, sprawly ways here. Perhaps moreso than elsewhere, perhaps with certain repercussions? I admit I am unable to persuasively argue that this is what it all comes down to. But I think it is striking that this is one clear-cut difference between Detroit and everywhere else.

[Forwardlook]

I would highly appreciate it if Finland would be left out of this discussion. I have never mentioned it or indicated that Finland is doing something better than Detroit. In fact, I do not like at all what Finland has become. There is a completely different story to this country what those reports on education, health care and general well being indicate. But that is not the discussion here.

Many good posts here and a lot of the things are familiar to me. I am still puzzled about how things proceeded the way they did. It seems that most people in charge were not doing their job the best way to say the least. It seems that most of the hard working law abiding citizens [[whatever their race might be) moved to the suburbs before it was too late. I can see that as everybody wants for example to get as much back from their home investment as possible, when the downward spiral starts this is natural. I don't think people can be blamed for this. I am sure that there were many good people that stayed in Detroit as well for what ever reason. But I just don't get it that the administrations weren't pressured more regarding the upkeeping of law and order. I understand that back in the 60:s this might have been a hot political/race issue but now the police officers are mostly black so there shouldn't be this tension anymore? Or has the situation been going on for way too long so that the psychological effect is too big? I mean passiveness for your own destiny, just waiting for more handouts and seeing crime as an acceptable way of making money no matter if it kills your own neighborhood. I do understand that this is a complex issue but I still think that the most pressing one is the crime. How can you attract new people and businesses to the area if that doesn't change? Or are there simply too few good people with sound values left for the tide to turn anytime soon?

I especially agree with MrJones and oladub, it seems that the single motherhood thing is a huge issue. I simply wonder what is wrong with these people. Here's a video that gives more food for thought, excellent points from Thomas Sowell;

http://youtu.be/2GklCBvS-eI

Many here say that the problems are mostly race related. Sure, the snowball effect started when the white flight went on in the 50:s and 60:s. Now that the city is mostly black it is being looted and burned by its own citizens. I don't get it. It is one thing to be poor and another to break the law. I understand that it is difficult to raise from poverty and that the surroundings can turn good people into bad ones quickly. But the amount of crime doesn't exactly add confidence Detroits residents. Maybe I'm just stupid but to me it seems that a lot of Detroiters create their own problems to a large extent.

[lilpup]

Have you had any personal experience in Detroit? If not how in the world do you think you can understand without a compare/contrast study to an environment you personally know? That's why I asked about Finland.

Otherwise you coming here and asking about Detroit while telling us to not point out the differences with Finland is extremely hypocritical.

[skyl4rk]

The roots of Detroit's problems today were caused by white leaders and people who imposed segregation on black people [[and other groups). Around 1970, black leaders and people picked up the torch and imposed separatism on Detroit.

The loss of population in the City of Detroit, and the City's financial failure show very clearly the absolute failure of separatism. Hopefully it is time to move on to something new.

It is important to note that throughout this period of history, a large body of people did not favor segregation or separatism. Separatism and segregation need to be taught to people, they are not natural to the human condition. It may have only been a minority of extremists that pushed these views.

Some leaders and many people have always wanted to live together in peace.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." MLK

[Cincinnati_Kid]

^^ Good Post.

[iheartthed]

Have you had any personal experience in Detroit? If not how in the world do you think you can understand without a compare/contrast study to an environment you personally know? That's why I asked about Finland.

Otherwise you coming here and asking about Detroit while telling us to not point out the differences with Finland is extremely hypocritical.

He said he's been to Detroit. But I bet 99.9999% of the people speaking about Finland have never been there.

[Islandman]

I know a few posters have mentioned it, but I really feel that the crack epidemic was the last straw in Detroit's decline. When you have crack houses everywhere, it doesn't help matters. I know I personally had 3 on my block on the northwest side, in what was a pretty decent neighborhood until that point.

[stromberg2]

He said he's been to Detroit. But I bet 99.9999% of the people speaking about Finland have never been there.

I've been there, a long time ago.

Stromberg2

[Pickford-Bentler]

I know a few posters have mentioned it, but I really feel that the crack epidemic was the last straw in Detroit's decline. When you have crack houses everywhere, it doesn't help matters. I know I personally had 3 on my block on the northwest side, in what was a pretty decent neighborhood until that point.

That is what did in my parents home on Pickford.

The most egregious offense being the neighbors who moved to Canton and rented their former home, on Pickford, as a section 8 to tenants who felt running a 24/7 crack emporium was a viable business. When I would visit my parents, we would often get a late night knock on the door from customers who had the wrong address. It got so bad that my pop had to park his rusted out Volare on the end of the drive to keep buyers from parking there. A lot of times, the FEDS, when they finally do something also pick the wrong address. That whole stretch of Pickford from Lahser to Evergreen was like the Wild West.

The whole war on drugs game is one giant clusterf$ck.

[Wesley Mouch]

I know a few posters have mentioned it, but I really feel that the crack epidemic was the last straw in Detroit's decline. When you have crack houses everywhere, it doesn't help matters. I know I personally had 3 on my block on the northwest side, in what was a pretty decent neighborhood until that point.

This is true -- but I'm less sure that it's uniquely true to Detroit. Could be unique if you'd argue that DPD failed to do as good a job as other American cities.

But I agree that the 'crack epidemic' was a major factor in urban decline.

[[And while I'm on the subject...Drug dealers make a lot of money; Drug dealers will therefore do evil things to protect their empire; it destroys neighborhoods. Much less of this would happen if drugs were legalized, and drug users were death with. The war on drugs could then be a war to reduce drug use -- not a war to keep drugs expensive and only dispensed by evil. The only price you'd pay would be a few zombies walking around causing occasional trouble. Like drunks but a bit worse. But a lot fewer people with guns shooting up the world to protect their drug territory. When are we going to get this? Even if you dislike drug use, the way we prosecute drug use is destructive to our cities and communities.)

[Forwardlook]

Have you had any personal experience in Detroit? If not how in the world do you think you can understand without a compare/contrast study to an environment you personally know? That's why I asked about Finland.

Otherwise you coming here and asking about Detroit while telling us to not point out the differences with Finland is extremely hypocritical.

Oh man...I am saying this again...Finland isn't in any way a model country for me. So what is the point of bringing it up? I have been to Detroit only twice but I love the history and architecture of it, among other things. I would love to move to Metro Detroit any time. So if you are saying that I'm trying to put the city down, that is far from the truth. I just try to understand the problems. I can see that the drug problem, especially when the cheap crack came to the market, made the ball really to roll the wrong way. I really feel for the folks who were targeted by this without their own fault.

[lilpup]

*eyeroll*

Ok, so you say Detroit needs to address its crime "with an iron fist" - what, exactly, constitutes an "iron fist" in your view?