4 dozen Catholic parishes targeted to close, merge in Detroit, suburbs

[NorthofNormal]

For all this rage about parishes abandoning the community, I have to ask: What community? SHM, Josaphat, and St. Joseph are gorgeous, huge old churches...within walking distance of each other and of Sacred Heart. When they were built, the Eastern Market area was densely populated with Catholics who could support those parishes and a fifth one in the same area [[Albertus). The population density isn't there any more, and what population exists isn't overwhelmingly Catholic. Many, if not most, of the people who attend Mass at those churches are coming in from the suburbs. What's the community that's being abandoned?

Yeah, it's bummer that gorgeous old churches are going to have to close. My family built St. John Cantius, and was sad when Cantius closed...but my family had left Delray decades before. A Catholic parish isn't a fancy building, it's a vibrant faith community--and a vibrant faith community takes more than stained glass and flying buttresses and nostalgia. The reality of the situation is that the children and grandchildren of St. John Cantius and SHM and Holy Family parishioners moved out to 83 Mile and built ugly box-style churches. That reality might suck, but it's still the reality and it still needs to be dealt with.

[Huggybear]

Check your facts... St. Scholastica was actually the last new Catholic church built in the city [[on the northern periphery of North Rosedale Park), with its foundation laid in 1963 [[it looks like a little version of Lincoln Center, with what are probably the biggest free spans in any church in town). The parish, however, dates back to the 1920s.

Regarding the AOD chasing folks who left the city for the burbs, think about this one fact. The last Catholic parish established & built in the city is my parish, St. Thomas Aquinas, in Warrendale. It was established in 1955, with the church building constructed in 1956. That tells me the AOD figured they were set with parishes in Detroit in the mid 50s when the first hints of white flight were starting but not being realized yet and at more than a decade before the riots. There wasn't going to be any more investment in Detroit parishes & that decision was made in 1955.

[eastland]

Check your facts... St. Scholastica was actually the last new Catholic church built in the city [[on the northern periphery of North Rosedale Park), with its foundation laid in 1963 [[it looks like a little version of Lincoln Center, with what are probably the biggest free spans in any church in town). The parish, however, dates back to the 1920s.

Jacki's reference was about the last parish to established in Detroit, not the last church that was built.

[jackie5275]

Jacki's reference was about the last parish to established in Detroit, not the last church that was built.

Thanks eastland. That was my point.

[motownmark04]

Regarding the AOD chasing folks who left the city for the burbs, think about this one fact. The last Catholic parish established & built in the city is my parish, St. Thomas Aquinas, in Warrendale. It was established in 1955, with the church building constructed in 1956. That tells me the AOD figured they were set with parishes in Detroit in the mid 50s when the first hints of white flight were starting but not being realized yet and at more than a decade before the riots. There wasn't going to be any more investment in Detroit parishes & that decision was made in 1955.

Yeah, and with the asshat of a priest they have there now, it won't be there much longer.

I wouldn't be surprised STA and St. Christopher were gone within two years.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yeah, it's bummer that gorgeous old churches are going to have to close. My family built St. John Cantius, and was sad when Cantius closed...but my family had left Delray decades before. A Catholic parish isn't a fancy building, it's a vibrant faith community--and a vibrant faith community takes more than stained glass and flying buttresses and nostalgia. The reality of the situation is that the children and grandchildren of St. John Cantius and SHM and Holy Family parishioners moved out to 83 Mile and built ugly box-style churches. That reality might suck, but it's still the reality and it still needs to be dealt with.

No, these churches do not *have* to close. I would argue that the churches in the suburbs did not *have* to get built! Go to any major city, and you'll find downtown houses of worship of numerous faiths where people commute from the suburbs every Sunday. The Archdiocese is not required to chase people out to 83 Mile Road.

It seems what you're saying is that the people who still attend these churches JUST DON'T MATTER. Is that correct? Are you going to pick them up every Sunday so they can make it to Mass on 83 Mile Road?

...and parishoners don't build churches--the DIOCESE does. Before Dollar One can be taken into a collection basket, someone has to lay out millions of dollars to construct a building. You talk like a group of neighbors get together and just up and build a church and hire a priest. Rubbish.

Using your logic, the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in downtown Washington, DC should be abandoned because no one lives near there. But like everything else of substance, churches are just another disposable relic in Detroit.

This "oh well" bullshit attitude has been killing Detroit for 60 years. When does it end?

[NorthofNormal]

You are right, the diocese is not required to chase people out to 83 mile road. There's no need, because they all went willingly. The diocese followed them. The diocese doesn't build churches where there's no congregation and hope one shows up, it follows the Catholics who emptied out of this city over the last 50 years. Stop acting like the diocese is packing up all of the churches in Detroit and moving out. There's not enough Catholics to support four parishes in Eastern Market. Period. That's reality. That's not "oh, well," that's a city with a population of 713,000. So three of them, which are already working together, are going to merge down to two.

We can debate until we're blue in the face over whether the parishes in the suburbs HAD to be built, but that's all hot air and wasted time because they WERE built. The city doesn't have the population it once had, and what remains is not as predominantly Catholic as it once was.

While we're on the subject, this wasn't a decision handed down from on high. A planning group made up of parishioners from these parishes got together, looked at the facts, and made that recommendation. Crazy thought here--but maybe the people on the ground, the ones who live in that area and attend those churches have a better handle on the reality of their situation?

[Occurrence]

Are all of these churches tax exempt? If so, that needs to change.

[Bham1982]

No, these churches do not *have* to close. I would argue that the churches in the suburbs did not *have* to get built! Go to any major city, and you'll find downtown houses of worship of numerous faiths where people commute from the suburbs every Sunday. The Archdiocese is not required to chase people out to 83 Mile Road.

This just isn't true.

Catholic and Mainline Protestant churches have been closing all over urban areas of the U.S. Even in super-prime city centers, there are tons of closings and many troubled churches.

The fact is that Catholics and Mainline Protestants generally don't live in urban cores. There's a terrible mismatch between locational preferences and religious infrastructure.

Outside of Mexican SW Detroit, there are few Catholics left in Detroit city proper, and now even the inner suburbs are losing tons of Catholics. Go to an inner suburban Catholic parish, and the average parishoner age appears to be pushing 70.

I was just in a very major inner suburban Catholic church in Oakland County, for 10 AM mass, for the first time in 20 years. There were practically no children.

Baring major demographic change [[like a ton of Latin American, Haitian or Filipino immigrants to South Oakland), this landmark church probably won't exist a few decades from now, when the parishoners pass on. Their kids and grandkids are in Oakland Township McMansions now, or in hipster Brooklyn, or in sun-baked Phoenix. Who knows, but they aren't at Sunday mass.

[rjk]

The Church has a responsibility to the community, and with these closings, it is failing its communities miserably. But you guys could give a shit less about those who remain behind in "the old neighborhood". Everyone is supposed to hop, skip, and jump for the fortunate ones who CHOOSE to abandon what already exists, though.

It's interesting that you talk about the church having a reponsibility to the community and yet you are saying screw you to the suburbs and wanting to deny them any sense of church community by expecting them to drive 20-30 miles to church.

For many catholics church is much more than just a building, it's about a community.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's interesting that you talk about the church having a reponsibility to the community and yet you are saying screw you to the suburbs and wanting to deny them any sense of church community by expecting them to drive 20-30 miles to church.

For many catholics church is much more than just a building, it's about a community.

It's the suburbanites who CHOSE to flee. If you choose to move 20-30 miles from your parish, then I'd hope you'd expect your parish to be located 20-30 miles away from your new home. As I posted above, my church [[located in a downtown area) has parishoners who "commute" 20 miles each way to attend Mass. So let's get over this idea that a Diocese has a compelling need to build a new church every time a family moves further from the urban core. The Archdiocese of Detroit wrote its own ticket by--much like everything else in Southeast Michigan--completely overbuilding beyond its means to maintain the facilities.

There's more than a bit of self-righteousness going on here. For six decades [[mostly) white Detroiters have fled ever-outward. They buy a house in a newly-developed area, moving away from the trappings of civilization, then expect everyone to come running with:

*new roads
*new schools
*new water and sewer lines
*new shopping
*new police and fire protection
*new churches

All of this is EXPENSIVE beyond belief, and the current state of Southeastern Michigan attests to that. The same pile of money can only be spread over so large an area before it grows too thin to be sufficient.

At it's best, it's piss-poor long-term fiscal management. At it's worst, a naive belief that sprawling ever-outward is some sort of natural manifestation that must continue at all costs.

Sense-of-entitlement-atcha.

[rjk]

It's the suburbanites who CHOSE to flee. If you choose to move 20-30 miles from your parish, then I'd hope you'd expect your parish to be located 20-30 miles away from your new home.

If the Catholic church followed your line of thinking they would have been in big trouble 40 years ago.
Limiting Catholic churches to Detroit when the Catholic population was dwindling would have been suicide for the church.

I don't know what part of "People aren't going to travel 20-30 miles to go to church" you don't understand. Was the Catholic church suppose to just fall on it's sword instead of adapting to the changing demographics?

[jcole]

So in your opinion, when people began migrating away from Detroit in, say, 1835, to move north into Romeo, Utica, etc, the Catholic church should have just stayed put in Detroit and told them to horse and buggy it into the city once a week? Or when the population started moving inland from the Atlantic coast, the churches should have stayed put? Maybe they should have just stayed put in Rome and left it at that.

[Bham1982]

And it isn't just the drive time. It's the severed cultural connections.

As the Italians and Germans moved to NE Detroit and Warren, it was still realistic for them to have ties to the old-world churches. But, their children and grandchildren settled in Sterling Heights, then Shelby, then Romeo. The cultural connections were lost [[language, food and family), and there was no reason to come downtown anymore.

It's isn't just physical distance. It's intermarriage, loss of cultural capital, and the process of Americanization. Folks were no longer Italian-American, they were just American.

[ghettopalmetto]

So in your opinion, when people began migrating away from Detroit in, say, 1835, to move north into Romeo, Utica, etc, the Catholic church should have just stayed put in Detroit and told them to horse and buggy it into the city once a week? Or when the population started moving inland from the Atlantic coast, the churches should have stayed put? Maybe they should have just stayed put in Rome and left it at that.

Let me explain a VERY simple concept to you:

In the past 40 years, the population growth in Southeastern Michigan has been ZERO.

[bailey]

Let me explain a VERY simple concept to you:

In the past 40 years, the population growth in Southeastern Michigan has been ZERO.

And what was the growth rate for Detroit, city of, during that time?

the churches followed the migration of it's customers. Just like the stores, lawyers, doctors, dentists...etc that used to populate all those empty office buildings. If they hadnt they would have been out of business.

[Bham1982]

Ghetto, let's say everyone stayed exactly where they were in 1970. Don't you think the Catholic Church would still have very serious problems in terms of inner-city church viability?

These were old-line, ethnic-specific churches. Once you lose the cultural links, the church allegiance will suffer. There's really no such thing as European ethnic enclaves anymore, at least not in Metro Detroit.

[SWMAP]

There is a lot of misunderstanding here about the history of AoD building. Look back at the mid-1800's and beyond. The Catholics here know that Sunday Mass is an obligation. There was a greater sense of obligation in earlier years and no one would miss Mass. But there were no automobiles and such transportation was even't conceivable then. Most Detroiters [[most City people) didn't keep horses and carriages. They just walked. So, the AoD had a policy of common to most American urban diocese' to purchase land every square mile for the eventual building of a parish church [[the closer proximity of the three Polish churches on Canfield was an aberation that caused a lot of trouble when the third one was built without the Bishop's consent) . Every Catholic had to be able to easily walk to church. In some ways, a version of that policy continues today. The AoD was still purchasing land for eventual parishes within the boundaries of the diocese until very recently.

But, just so you know, the AoD usually did not "build" the church buildings. Once the population of a neighborhood was established, a new parish would be established, named and a pastor assigned. That pastor would start having Masses in a rentable building in the neighborhood while rallying the parishioners to raise the funds to choose a design, an architect and the amenities of a church building, a school [[in earlier years), etc. For example, the first Masses at Holy Redeemer Parish in Detroit were said in a space above a tavern on West Jefferson circa 1880. The parishioners eventually built three successive churches, schools, convents, an theatre on West Vernor, etc. The Diocese did not construct these buildings that were the ambitions of the parishioners.
Many parishes had much more modest ambitions. But, in general, the pastors assigned to build Detroit parishes were ambitious builders, building for the ages. The AoD is a corporation sole, so the properties do belong to the Bishop - but the parishioners built their parishes - and continue to build them where they live.

[ghettopalmetto]

These were old-line, ethnic-specific churches. Once you lose the cultural links, the church allegiance will suffer. There's really no such thing as European ethnic enclaves anymore, at least not in Metro Detroit.

How do you figure these were "ethnic-specific" churches? I've never been to a Catholic church that asks to prove your ethnicity at the door.

And who permits the establishment of a parish, SWMAP??? [[Here's a hint: He wears a mitre!) You don't just get your neighbors together, hire a rogue priest and have Mass in someone's garage. It's a good way of getting yourself excommunicated.

Shit tons of excuses on this thread.

[Bham1982]

How do you figure these were "ethnic-specific" churches? I've never been to a Catholic church that asks to prove your ethnicity at the door.

Almost all the 19th century Detroit churches have specific ethnic lineages, and the remnants of these lineages help keep them alive today.

Obviously you aren't ask for your Polish or German identification, but that's the cultural glue that helped form these parishes and kept them going. That's the reason that a handful of old-timers still make the long trek every Sunday.

[ghettopalmetto]

Almost all the 19th century Detroit churches have specific ethnic lineages, and the remnants of these lineages help keep them alive today.

Obviously you aren't ask for your Polish or German identification, but that's the cultural glue that helped form these parishes and kept them going. That's the reason that a handful of old-timers still make the long trek every Sunday.

So what? The parish to which I belong was founded by Irish canal diggers. I'm not the least bit Irish. Neither are the Hispanics, Arabs, Blacks, Indians, and half the White members of the congregation.

[Bham1982]

So what? The parish to which I belong was founded by Irish canal diggers. I'm not the least bit Irish. Neither are the Hispanics, Arabs, Blacks, Indians, and half the White members of the congregation.

I don't know where you attend. If you attend an old-line Detroit church that no longer has its old-line ethnic attendance, then your church is probably struggling mightily, unless it's in SW [[thanks to the Mexicans).

In many cases, these churches' survival is based on maintenance of ethnic linkages. For example, St. Joseph's biggest fundraiser is an Oktoberfest, which is organized by various German and Austrian cultural groups. They had, until recently, a montly German mass. Unfortunately, the numbers dwindled, and the mass had to be cancelled.

Without the remnants of German support, St. Josephs would have probably closed decades ago. Let's hope it keeps going.

[bailey]

So what? The parish to which I belong was founded by Irish canal diggers. I'm not the least bit Irish. Neither are the Hispanics, Arabs, Blacks, Indians, and half the White members of the congregation.

clearly the area in which you live isn't half empty. When the irish canal diggers moved or died off, someone moved into their house and joined the community. Can the same be said for the parishes here?

[jcole]

I don't know where you attend. If you attend an old-line Detroit church that no longer has its old-line ethnic attendance, then your church is probably struggling mightily, unless it's in SW [[thanks to the Mexicans).

In many cases, these churches' survival is based on maintenance of ethnic linkages. For example, St. Joseph's biggest fundraiser is an Oktoberfest, which is organized by various German and Austrian cultural groups. They had, until recently, a montly German mass. Unfortunately, the numbers dwindled, and the mass had to be cancelled.

Without the remnants of German support, St. Josephs would have probably closed decades ago. Let's hope it keeps going.

B'ham, apparently he doesn't attend in the Detroit area:

I currently attend a parish founded in 1824, with the physical church itself over 100 years old. Parishoners attend from 26 different ZIP codes--despite there being several other parishes within the vicinity.

I live in a very small diocese, and there is no way in hell the Diocese would ever be able to try to chase suburban sprawl without imploding on itself.

Of course, our Diocese could choose to build a few modernistic shitbox churches in the far suburbs, tear down the beautiful church we currently have, and justifiy it by saying that they "Are following the parishoners". But they won't, because such an idiotic thing costs millions upon millions of dollars.

[maxx]

In other words,quit being Catholic.
I doubt if changes like that were made, many like you would even come back anyways.

How do those other churches reconcile their condoning of divorce with the part of the Bible that says "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder"?