4 dozen Catholic parishes targeted to close, merge in Detroit, suburbs

[jcole]

Bullshit. If Krakow, Poland can keep St. Mary's open [[constructed ca. 1300), then there isn't any excuse for the Archdiocese of Detroit, other than short-sightedness and piss-poor fiscal management.

The parishoners are there--the Archdiocese has merely diluted them into an ever-growing number of parishes over an ever-wider geographic area.

You are talking about Krakow keeping one church open, not about them choosing which ones to close. If it were a matter of keeping one really old church open in Detroit, a case could be made that people would donate to the cause, but when it's close to 50 churches, the donations won't be flowing in.
And the parishioners are NOT there in the numbers that they were when the churches were built. You also don't have parents sending their kids to Catholic grade schools like they did in the 40's-80's, which helped to keep the parish rolls ever growing.

[ghettopalmetto]

You are talking about Krakow keeping one church open, not about them choosing which ones to close. If it were a matter of keeping one really old church open in Detroit, a case could be made that people would donate to the cause, but when it's close to 50 churches, the donations won't be flowing in.
And the parishioners are NOT there in the numbers that they were when the churches were built. You also don't have parents sending their kids to Catholic grade schools like they did in the 40's-80's, which helped to keep the parish rolls ever growing.

So you're saying that the Archdiocese hasn't spent itself too thin by opening dozens of new parishes in the suburbs over the past six decades? The Archdiocese hasn't helped encourage dispersal of Catholics over an ever-larger geographic area? Is that what you're saying?

Move along now, nothing to see here. Everything is just peachy keen in Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

You are talking about Krakow keeping one church open, not about them choosing which ones to close. If it were a matter of keeping one really old church open in Detroit, a case could be made that people would donate to the cause, but when it's close to 50 churches, the donations won't be flowing in.
.

Oh yeah, "really old" churches in Detroit. What's that--all of 100 years old? HA! Fucking hilarious.

[jcole]

Those people know where they go to church, and they certainly consider that when they move. What you wrote here would be similar to me moving 30 miles away, and demanding that my boss relocate the office so that I have a shorter commute. It's a bullshit line of thinking. The Diocese didn't have the money to chase population, and now the bill is coming due.

So, the answer was what? Tell the population that moved away that if they wanted to continue to go to mass, they would have to drive 30 miles to go to do so?Yeah, that would fly. The city parishes would still be in the same condition because most people aren't going to do that. It probably would have helped swell the rolls of other denominations.
Or were they supposed to say "you stay in Detroit; if you want to be a Catholic, you have to live in the city"?
The mission of the church is to take God to the faithful, not tell the faithful you either come to us, or find somewhere else to go.
And did you honestly expect the Church to give up all those Sunday collection envelopes by allowing the parishioners to leave the city and not following them?

[rjk]

Those churches that were built in the suburbs also built catholic grade schools and eventually high schools.
People in the suburbs weren't going to drive 20 miles to go to church on Sunday and then make that same trip on Monday through Friday to drop their kids off at school.

Whether you're a church or a department store it's not smart to say I'm staying here, you come to me.

[ghettopalmetto]

Those churches that were built in the suburbs also built catholic grade schools and eventually high schools.
People in the suburbs weren't going to drive 20 miles to go to church on Sunday and then make that same trip on Monday through Fridays to drop their kids off at school.

Whether you're a church or a department store it's not smart to say I'm staying here, you come to me.

Whether you're conceited or simply self-righteous, it's not smart to move 20 miles away and expect everyone to kiss your ass and bring all of the trappings of civilization to your doorstep.

So why is it the Archdiocese's problem if people decide to move 20 miles away? There was no OBLIGATION on their part to incur massive capital expenses based on the PERSONAL DESIRES of individuals, when that money was needed to maintain its existing parishes.

The Church has a responsibility to the community, and with these closings, it is failing its communities miserably. But you guys could give a shit less about those who remain behind in "the old neighborhood". Everyone is supposed to hop, skip, and jump for the fortunate ones who CHOOSE to abandon what already exists, though.

[antongast]

It probably would have helped swell the rolls of other denominations.

Do you really think people pick a religion like they pick a bank or grocery store? It's pretty hard for me to see significant numbers of Catholics saying "my church is too far away, I'm gonna be Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopalian now because their churches are closer to my house." I can see people coming to Mass less often or being less active in their parishes if there isn't a conveniently located church, but the idea that they'd switch denominations based on geography seems kind of implausible.

[jcole]

So which of the old churches do you attend?

[ghettopalmetto]

Do you really think people pick a religion like they pick a bank or grocery store? It's pretty hard for me to see significant numbers of Catholics saying "my church is too far away, I'm gonna be Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopalian now because their churches are closer to my house." I can see people coming to Mass less often or being less active in their parishes if there isn't a conveniently located church, but the idea that they'd switch denominations based on geography seems kind of implausible.

I currently attend a parish founded in 1824, with the physical church itself over 100 years old. Parishoners attend from 26 different ZIP codes--despite there being several other parishes within the vicinity.

I live in a very small diocese, and there is no way in hell the Diocese would ever be able to try to chase suburban sprawl without imploding on itself.

Of course, our Diocese could choose to build a few modernistic shitbox churches in the far suburbs, tear down the beautiful church we currently have, and justifiy it by saying that they "Are following the parishoners". But they won't, because such an idiotic thing costs millions upon millions of dollars.

[jcole]

Do you really think people pick a religion like they pick a bank or grocery store? It's pretty hard for me to see significant numbers of Catholics saying "my church is too far away, I'm gonna be Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopalian now because their churches are closer to my house." I can see people coming to Mass less often or being less active in their parishes if there isn't a conveniently located church, but the idea that they'd switch denominations based on geography seems kind of implausible.

Yes, I have seen people do it.
If you want to remain a 'true' Catholic, you don't go to mass less often; every Sunday is required or you are committing a sin. So what's worse; sinning by missing Mass or sinning by going to another church?

[bailey]

I'm sorry..not a catholic...or in particularly religious in any capacity...but iirc aren't most of the financial problems facing the Detroit diocese fallout from the ridiculous debt they took on to finance that Pope John Paul II museum debacle in DC ? didn't they lay out like 50-60* million on Maida's vanity project and then only recoup pennies on the dollar?


[[*googled it... Freep called it a "75 million dollar gamble" but the article is paywalled).

[p69rrh51]

St. Joseph's is probably the most impressive and beautiful church in the entire Archdiocese. I can't imagine they would close it. Though I do know that it has very light attendance.

IMO, it's far more impressive and beautiful than the cathedral.

All three are very impressive.

[jackie5275]

Regarding the AOD chasing folks who left the city for the burbs, think about this one fact. The last Catholic parish established & built in the city is my parish, St. Thomas Aquinas, in Warrendale. It was established in 1955, with the church building constructed in 1956. That tells me the AOD figured they were set with parishes in Detroit in the mid 50s when the first hints of white flight were starting but not being realized yet and at more than a decade before the riots. There wasn't going to be any more investment in Detroit parishes & that decision was made in 1955.

[Gistok]

I don't disagree, but the people didn't follow the churches in their relocation. Rather, the churches followed the people.

What's the point of keeping St. Joseph open when 95% of the former parishoners live in places like Macomb Township? If you don't provide for them in their new location, you'll eventually lose them.

It's a sad reality when new and non-descript churches like St. Isadore's [[23 Mile & Romeo Plank Rd.) in Macomb Township have to hold 8 masses each Sat./Sun., just to keep up with the demand for masses by the throngs of people who attended them.

Unlike home builders, businesses and strip malls... it really didn't make financial sense for the Catholic Churches to anticipate where new churches should be built, and the "build it and they will come" mentality wasn't one that the Archdiocese embraced. They had enormous capital tied up in sumptuous churches in the city and inner ring suburbs.

But unfortunately as the faithful older attendees of the older parishes who were willing to make that drive to "the old neighborhood" to attend mass died off.... their offsprings didn't have that allegiance, and instead opted for the more convenient closer parish church, thus overtaxing their resources.

My guess is that among institutions, the catholic churches were the farthest behind in their "relocation mindset".

The sad thing about these older churches is that they have enormous upkeep, and the income just isn't there to maintain both them and their booming suburban brethren. Because of the separation of church and state clause in our constitution, it unfortunately hinders the government support of helping to maintain these beautiful structures. In Europe, where no such separation exists, the governments almost always help out, or in some cases completely control restoration and/or maintenance costs.

Germany's Cologne Cathedral is a prime example. It is the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th largest church on the planet [[depending on how you measure size), and has had scaffolding somewhere on its' 515ft. tall sillouette during all but 2 of the last 50 years. It, like thousands of other chuches across Europe receive money from the local and federal governments for restoration work.

The fault in this case is not on the Archdiocese, but on the Church in Rome [[where the ban on the marriage of priests reduces candidacy), and on parishioners themselves, who moved away from their parishes, to be followed by peoples of other faiths.

As was mentioned, this same scenario happened on a smaller scale with the outmigration of Detroit's Jewry, which slowly migrated northwestward from central Detroit to the periphery of West Bloomfield.... leaving in its' wake a series of empty synagogues, eventually re-used by other faiths, or, as in the case of the Bonstelle Theatre [[former Temple Beth-El) and a Temple in Southfield on Southfield Rd. & Mt. Vernon.... both becoming performing arts centers.

However, the problem with the abandoned/closed parish churches of Detroit.... is that many, if not most are too large for any "maintainable" reuse.

[antongast]

Yes, I have seen people do it.
If you want to remain a 'true' Catholic, you don't go to mass less often; every Sunday is required or you are committing a sin. So what's worse; sinning by missing Mass or sinning by going to another church?

I have no idea which is worse, you'd have to take that up with God.

[jcole]

I have no idea which is worse, you'd have to take that up with God.

I don't either; that's why I asked the question.

[townonenorth]

However, the problem with the abandoned/closed parish churches of Detroit.... is that many, if not most are too large for any "maintainable" reuse.

That is true. So is the city surrounding them. I don't see any hope of keeping any of these jewels intact after their mothballing. Scrapper's paradise, In some cases.

[DetroitPlanner]

If they want inactive Catholics to come back, maybe they should recognize us divorced Catholics. As it is now we are pariah and can't take part in many of the rites in the church. Also need priests who are married, who understand the world as it is, not as it was.

Yeah but the married priest would snitch on the child molestors! I say that in jest. I too went to a Catholic High School. We were taught the only reason why priests were not married was because in the fuedal times in Europe they would divide the churches land among thier children and the children would each become priests and build thier own churches. Sounds to me like they were trying to avoid the church killing itself off as what would happen to Amway if everyone became an Amway dealer!

There are tons of things in the church's business plan that do not make any sense any longer. I think they have chosen death over adaptation.

[MikeM]

So why is it the Archdiocese's problem if people decide to move 20 miles away? There was no OBLIGATION on their part to incur massive capital expenses based on the PERSONAL DESIRES of individuals, when that money was needed to maintain its existing parishes.

Maybe they followed the money.

My parents moved to the burbs in the late 1940s and attended mass in an empty storefront until a church [[and school) could be built in their neighborhood. They put three kids through Catholic school and sent one to the seminary. Not a single one moved back to the city and it wouldn't matter if they did, because not a single one attends mass anymore.

[Pam]

If they want inactive Catholics to come back, maybe they should recognize us divorced Catholics. As it is now we are pariah and can't take part in many of the rites in the church.

I know several divorced Catholics that attend mass and take communion. In what way are you a pariah?

[jcole]

I know several divorced Catholics that attend mass and take communion. In what way are you a pariah?

I think that divorced people can still go to mass and partake of the sacraments, but if you remarry you are then not allowed to partake any longer.

Archdiocese of Atlanta website
http://www.archatl.com/offices/tribunal/drm_c.html

Please remember that a divorce alone would not affect, or hinder in any way, your participation in the Catholic Church. A divorced Catholic is free to receive the sacraments. However, if you are divorcedand remarried without an Decree of Invalidity [[and your former spouse is still living) a problem does arise. Similarly, if your spouse was previously married and has not received an Decree of Invalidity from a Tribunal, there is a problem.In such circumstances, you may not partake of the sacraments, including the reception of Holy Communion. We respect all marriages, even those which have ended in a civil divorce. Every prior marriage must be examined, since each is presumed to be valid with a lasting and lifelong commitment. Until it is shown otherwise through the ministry of the Tribunal, no person is free to enter into another marriage without the appearance or occasion of serious sin.

[Pam]

I think that divorced people can still go to mass and partake of the sacraments, but if you remarry you are then not allowed to partake any longer.

The people I know are remarried.

[jcole]

The people I know are remarried.

Then technically, they aren't supposed to be taking the sacraments. I don't think anyone can stop them from attending Mass; non-Catholics are allowed into the church. But "legally" they can't take communion or any of the other sacraments
Unless they got annulments through the Church; then it's as if they were never married before

[rjk]

A lot of these parishes already share priests, don't they? I don't see how taking a 3-parish group that already shares a priest and closing one of the physical buildings reduces the need for priests.

The last three priests that have been in charge of the Sweetest Heart/St Josephat/St Joes cluster all have been very young for priests, all in their 40's/50's. That's not a coincidence in that being in charge of three parishes can be very draining. Word has it that the first two priests requested a transfer because they were mentally and physically exhausted.

[EastsideAl]

Despite my Irish background, I'm no Catholic. My family left the church, if indeed they were ever any part of it, several generations ago. But as a local history buff and someone who loves fine monumental architecture, I do appreciate many of the great churches that mark the City of Detroit as the very Catholic city it once was. As pointed out above, many of the churches slated for closing or consolidation are among the city's most beautiful.

It seems to me that all resentments of suburbanization and arguments about modernization of Catholic practices aside, Gistok's post comes closest to the obvious truth. There are simply not enough practicing Catholics close enough to these buildings anymore to keep most of them viable as working parishes, and none are coming any time soon. Even if there were more Catholics nearby, the cost of heating, lighting, maintaining, and upgrading these buildings would likely eventually force moves away from or replacement of most of these churches, perhaps all but the most historic would fade away anyway. No amount of sentiment really overcomes these demographic and economic realities.

People can also argue all they want about the historic churches of Europe, but most of those churches are in cities that are more densely populated by historically Catholic populations than the City of Detroit, and, more importantly, receive some significant level of state support, if only for maintenance and preservation. Of course, here in the U.S we don't do that.