Troy debates sending back $8.5 million in U.S. aid for transit center

[urbanhat]

As an aside...

I don't entirely blame the engineers for poor communication. You know as well as I do that any project receiving federal funding must hold public hearings. The problem I've noticed, however, is that a project--say, a freeway expansion--will already have been chosen as the "preferred" alternative, well into design, and damn near ready to bid before the public hearings are held. By that point, the DOT conveniently ignores the public comment, and proceeds as scheduled.

I completely agree, most often public hearings are designed to minimize meaningful public comment. Even if the process were more democratic, it might produce the same results unless people are encouraged to think more long-term.

More generally, I think a lot of engineers just don't see their role as one of advocacy. It's not usually part of the job description. There are exceptions--I personally have colleagues who talk with the media and voice their "expert" opinions on projects--unfortunately, these people don't work in Detroit.

Another point: as an urban planner [[I am also trained as a planner), I don't think it's productive to continue to portray engineers as the enemy. I agree with rbdetsport that a lot of engineers do understand the problems caused by 1950s-era planning, especially younger ones. Engineers can design good things just as well as bad things: a good engineer would be happier designing a two-lane street with a bike lane and sidewalk than a six-lane highway, as long as it met standards. It's true that a lot of old-school engineers are resistant to change, but there are plenty of transportation departments that have done good design recently. Take the NYC DOT under Sadik-Khan. Ok, the process hasn't been that democratic, but she has gotten a hugely bureaucratic organization to do new things and the dept is full of people who are interested in designing bike lanes and mounting public education campaigns.

[467riverfix]

Ballyhoo for whoever gets the fed $ now! Obviously there are countless other communities that like to have their snouts in the trough. You have to take a stand somewhere with rejecting handouts and Troy council has obviously done that. Of course look at the reaction it's getting. There are a zillion rationales for taking taxpayer money, aren't there, folks?

[canuck]

Wow! Good on Magna leaders for standing up to this nonsense! For once, responsible folks at the top can claim to be "good corporate citizens".

Denying the needs of the metropolitan population to fend-off a perceived attack on the freeway, the God-given right to not have a suburban commuter train is antiquated and evil. The proof is there to behold; if a car parts manufacturer is disgusted; it should probably start stirring shit in regular folks too...

[Bham1982]

it seems all the hew and cry and threats of moving out of Troy should have been made in November when these teahadists [[specifically the Mayor) were running on the issue of killing this project [[among others).

The media is fooling the public. There are no credible threats to move out of Troy.

That Magna employee was NOT speaking as a representative of Magna. Magna did not endorse any of his comments. I wouldn't be surprised if that individual was being dealt with internally.

In contrast, Sakwa Enterprises, owner of some of the most valuable tax generating real estate in Troy, did make it clear that its investments would lose value if this boondoggle were approved.

For those that know Troy, this proposed transit center is in the far southwest corner of the city, behind a shopping center and hard against the railroad tracks. It is quite far from 90% of the city, including the vast majority of the corporate base.

Even if you believe this transit center were the best thing ever, it would have no day-to-day impact on the Troy corporate base. It simply isn't proximate to any major corporate users. It's only close to retail space, and the retail owners spent big bucks fighting it.

[wolverine]

^ finally something I agree with you on.

[Bham1982]

I am a transportation engineer and I WOULD claim this. It reduces congestion for a couple years at most. It is a temporary fix to add lanes. In the long run, the congestion will become even worse and the freeway will become unsustainable. Instead of adding additional lanes, a different transit alternative would be better.

Freeways aren't built as temporary fixes. They're intended as permanent infrastructure improvements.

Yes, if the freeway is successful, the congestion may eventually reach previous levels. It may even exceed previous levels. That's a marker of success, and the whole point of the investment.

That additional congestion is generated by folks choosing the expanded highway over alternate routes. That's induced traffic, and will occur with any improvement in roadways or transit.

[JDKeepsmiling]

In contrast, Sakwa Enterprises, owner of some of the most valuable tax generating real estate in Troy, did make it clear that its investments would lose value if this boondoggle were approved.

Bham,
Apparently there is more behind the Sakwa postiion then meets the eye. They originally gave the land to Troy for the specific purpose of the transit center. Now they basically want to land back. They will fight any use of that land that they gave Troy, just so there is a chance they can get it back.

JD

[canuck]

Bham1982,

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but expain to me how Sakwa would lose money on having a transit center near their properties? Is there intrinsically a negative effect on any commercial enterprise that isnt essentially served by parking lots and drive-ins?

[cramerro]

Of course expanding freeways relieves congestion. Prior to the freeways, the arterials out from Detroit were rush hour parking lots. The added capacity decreased commuting times and faciliated the move to suburbia and exurbia.

Yes, there is induced demand, where a new roadway will draw traffic from existing, slower roadways, or other modes of transit, but no transit engineer or transit planner would claim that new capacity doesn't relieve congestion.

Obviously if I take I-75, let's say, and expand it from 6 to 10 lanes, traffic will move faster. To claim otherwise isn't really logical, IMO.

What information do you have that would support the claim that "arterials out from Detroit were rush hour parking lots." A 30-second review of the census population trends for the communities outside of the city limits would clearly show that population outside would make this claim impossible.

Your point that a freeway has more capacity than a surface street is understood. The problem is that traffic patterns, volumes, and flow are not in a vaccum where you have X cars and you just add a lane to give them more space. By expanding the freeway, you are facilitating a pattern of development, growth, and decline that inherently requires more vehicle miles traveled [[VMT), which in turn creates additional traffic volumes system-wide and eventually congestion on its own.

One of the most interesting sets of data I've come across in a college textbook was showing the average commuting time and distance by decade over the past 100 years [[I can find the source someday, it's not made up). Basically, the average commute time has been nearly steady - just the distance [[and the modes) have changed. We as a society have an apparent tolerance for commute time, and choose where [[or at least how far from work) we live based in great part on that variable.

With all of this in mind, as many a traffic engineer/planner will confirm, when you have the same number of people traveling in a transportation network [[SE Michigan), but those people are making longer trips [[and also more trips because they have to be single-purpose due to lack of mixed-use development), you will have more congested segments as a system whole.

Spend the money to expand, and then you will need to expand all the other roads farther out in the system to accomodate those who can now get 10% farther in the same time frame. Sure, I-75 will seem less congested [[for a time), but the impacts of congestion in the feeder system will be immediate.

[cramerro]

Bham,
Apparently there is more behind the Sakwa postiion then meets the eye. They originally gave the land to Troy for the specific purpose of the transit center. Now they basically want to land back. They will fight any use of that land that they gave Troy, just so there is a chance they can get it back.

JD

They didn't just give the land to Troy, it was part of a consent agreement that allowed Sakwa to rezone the property to the intensity needed to build the development that sits there today. I'm sure when they made the agreement 10 years ago, when the economy was good, it was a worthwhile sacrifice. Economy not so good, all of a sudden this center will be bad for the property value... not a coincidence that this is when they can literally feel the title in thier fingers if the vote can just be NO.

And as for BHam... the whole point of the Magna employee's letter was not so much the merits of the transit center or not, Magna's property values, or the value of some developer's property. It was an [[albeit strangely communicated) outburst of frustration and vote of no-confidence in the City's leadership. I'm with him - I have nothing to gain or lose but cannot believe the basic principles of democracy and political willpower that are out the window with tea party people across the country.

It even makes me sick to categorize a whole group of people like that, but esepecially when it comes to local politics I can't stand when elected officials pull the whole party-line BS. This isn't foreign policy. You ARE NOT in any way associated with the federal budget process - and your residents have elected state and federal lawmakers and executives that deal with that. Making a stand by giving back debt money to the Feds? What a terrible excuse to turn down $9M in free money and waste nearly a decade of honest, hard-working people's work to see this through so you can live up to some BS campaign promise for a local city council election. Great - the city won't have to charge resdients a single dollar more for taxes [[although everyone is paying less and less). Hopefully all that money that people save is worth not having a library, passing on the transit center [[to save $30,000 a year?!) and whatever is the next service/building they cut to be able to maintain a police force to cover the residents.

A clear display of short-sighted, close-minded leadership as is possible - not even a year into thier terms.

[canuck]

Any developer worth their salt would find ways of taking advantage of a transit station à la TOD.
What is the big deal capitalizing on that instead of pounding on something that is long overdue.
I mean, anywhere else, mall and office owners would kill to get the traffic generated.

[Novine]

"Yes, if the freeway is successful, the congestion may eventually reach previous levels. It may even exceed previous levels. That's a marker of success, and the whole point of the investment."

Maybe you are a highway engineer. Who else could argue that a freeway needs to be expanded to deal with congestion and then declares "Success!" when the freeway becomes congested again - and we've spent billions of dollars in the process.

[j to the jeremy]

They didn't just give the land to Troy, it was part of a consent agreement that allowed Sakwa to rezone the property to the intensity needed to build the development that sits there today. I'm sure when they made the agreement 10 years ago, when the economy was good, it was a worthwhile sacrifice. Economy not so good, all of a sudden this center will be bad for the property value... not a coincidence that this is when they can literally feel the title in thier fingers if the vote can just be NO.

And as for BHam... the whole point of the Magna employee's letter was not so much the merits of the transit center or not, Magna's property values, or the value of some developer's property. It was an [[albeit strangely communicated) outburst of frustration and vote of no-confidence in the City's leadership. I'm with him - I have nothing to gain or lose but cannot believe the basic principles of democracy and political willpower that are out the window with tea party people across the country.

It even makes me sick to categorize a whole group of people like that, but esepecially when it comes to local politics I can't stand when elected officials pull the whole party-line BS. This isn't foreign policy. You ARE NOT in any way associated with the federal budget process - and your residents have elected state and federal lawmakers and executives that deal with that. Making a stand by giving back debt money to the Feds? What a terrible excuse to turn down $9M in free money and waste nearly a decade of honest, hard-working people's work to see this through so you can live up to some BS campaign promise for a local city council election. Great - the city won't have to charge resdients a single dollar more for taxes [[although everyone is paying less and less). Hopefully all that money that people save is worth not having a library, passing on the transit center [[to save $30,000 a year?!) and whatever is the next service/building they cut to be able to maintain a police force to cover the residents.

A clear display of short-sighted, close-minded leadership as is possible - not even a year into thier terms.

Right on! I can't believe how this mayor actually sounds! For someone who's hell-bent on living up to the standards of the tea party, even after the "queers" fiasco, you'd think she could come up with a more creative reason to reject this than "we need to fix the economy before we take more debt money".

Does she think Troy alone can fix the national economy? EVERYONE WHO LIVES IN MICHIGAN TAKES "DEBT MONEY", if that's what she wants to call it. Does she know the state is broke? Does she know her city is broke?

Do tea partiers ever think about the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on war by this country? Or do they live in a vacuum composed of talk radio and fanatical internet sites? Their message is a mix of far-right religious dogma, libertarian/anarchist reduction in government, and xenophobia. It's the most illogical mix of bullshit ever.

New tea party slogans
Small gov't. unless we're talking about bombing brown people!

Reduce taxes completely because IT's MY money and I want it NOW!

White Power!

America is isolationist, that's why we should stop investing in renewable energy and start drilling for more oil in other countries!

[1953]

I lived in Macomb Twp. in the 90's when Grand Sakwa bulled over every stretch of land they could get their hands on, including the township airport. They never struck me as good corporate citizens.

[Detroitnerd]

I lived in Macomb Twp. in the 90's when Grand Sakwa bulled over every stretch of land they could get their hands on, including the township airport. They never struck me as good corporate citizens.

Was that Berz-Macomb? I remember that little airport. Was sorta fun to see those Sunday pilots buzzing around the end of the subdivisions around 1995 or so ...

[HistoryNotHisStory]

the media is fooling the public. There are no credible threats to move out of troy.

That magna employee was not speaking as a representative of magna. Magna did not endorse any of his comments. I wouldn't be surprised if that individual was being dealt with internally.

In contrast, sakwa enterprises, owner of some of the most valuable tax generating real estate in troy, did make it clear that its investments would lose value if this boondoggle were approved.

For those that know troy, this proposed transit center is in the far southwest corner of the city, behind a shopping center and hard against the railroad tracks. It is quite far from 90% of the city, including the vast majority of the corporate base.

Even if you believe this transit center were the best thing ever, it would have no day-to-day impact on the troy corporate base. It simply isn't proximate to any major corporate users. It's only close to retail space, and the retail owners spent big bucks fighting it.

if a business community cannot effectively get their workers to come their place of employment, then they relocate.

[ghettopalmetto]

Guess who made the New York Times?

“There’s nothing free about government money,” Mayor Janice Daniels said in an interview. “It’s never free, and it’s crippling our way of life.”

Are we supposed to believe that the recession was caused by too much government spending? Yeah, that's the person I want representing my interests--the complete and total moron.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/us...s.html?_r=1&hp

[detroitbob]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/us...s.html?_r=1&hp


another more believable quote from the NYTimes artlcle...


Ed Myles, the president of a local manufacturing company, J.E. Myles & Co., said that the area, like the rest of the country, had been hurt by the recession and that it could use the economic boost that the transit center could provide. He said he worried about what companies like Magna would do. The council’s vote “put the kibosh on any other companies moving here.”

[Hermod]

There are many topics which are political in nature, but investment in physical infrastructure should never be made one of them.

So, all "investment" in physical infrastructure is good and should not be opposed by the political process?

You would not do everything in your power politically to oppose the construction of I-275 north from I-96 to a juncture with I-75 in northern Oakland County? We could also add an extension of M-59 west to connect with said I-275 extension or maybe continue M-59 west to connect with M23.

It seems that the decision to build a bridge to nowhere in Alaska was political and the opposition to it surely was political.

[ghettopalmetto]

So, all "investment" in physical infrastructure is good and should not be opposed by the political process?

You would not do everything in your power politically to oppose the construction of I-275 north from I-96 to a juncture with I-75 in northern Oakland County? We could also add an extension of M-59 west to connect with said I-275 extension or maybe continue M-59 west to connect with M23.

It seems that the decision to build a bridge to nowhere in Alaska was political and the opposition to it surely was political.

I believe that proposed infrastructure spending should have to withstand rigorous scrutiny. After all, we are talking about public monies, and the public should be allowed input into the process. Both the proposed transit center in Troy [[and the Woodward Light Rail) went through this process and were determined to qualify for funds, based on FACTS. In this instance, the political ideology of ONE person trumped the entire process, facts be damned.

I'm a big believer that infrastructure investments need to be made based on the results of engineering and economics analyses, not off-the-cuff political ideology.

[SteveJ]

if a business community cannot effectively get their workers to come their place of employment, then they relocate.

Not defending Troy because they have become whats wrong with the country, but don't think that an Amtrak station with a possible smart bus coming by is going to effect you unless you commute from Chicago everyday.

[j to the jeremy]

Not defending Troy because they have become whats wrong with the country, but don't think that an Amtrak station with a possible smart bus coming by is going to effect you unless you commute from Chicago everyday.

It would effect you if you commute to Troy by SMART, which people do. And if the Snyderbuses ever get set up, but Troy can't think more than 10 minutes into the future, so fuck that.

[SteveJ]

I guess thats my point. Snyder is a snake. He goes up and talks real nice about moving forward and working together blah blah blah. But he signs all the right wing bullshit that gets passed and is hurting families left and right. The next big thing is right to work. I am hearing quotes lately that he isn't interested in this stuff because its decisive. This is all a good cop bad cop ploy. He plays the good cop but will sign the right to work bill if it gets passed. Their will be no buses so why bother building anything. Just false hope to get some youth vote.

[Cinderpath]

That Magna employee was NOT speaking as a representative of Magna. Magna did not endorse any of his comments. I wouldn't be surprised if that individual was being dealt with internally.

I've got news for ya' Skippy: Here is his title:

Frank W. Ervin III
Manager, Government Affairs
Magna International, Inc.
600 Wilshire Drive • Troy, MI 48084

I'd say he has plenty of business speaking as a representative of Magna, and the company in fact did endorse his comments. As for Troy turning this down, do we expect anything else from a place who is stuck in the mindset of the 1960's?

[Detroitnerd]

Nice one, Cinderpath.